(In reply to Anje from comment #23) > Thunderbird uses the 'Alt + letter throughout the focus selection in the Write window. > Alt K is used to select/get focus on the Contact Sidebar 'address book' selection > Alt N is used to set focus in the Search Contacts. > Alt R sets focus on the 'FROM' > Alt C selects Cc ...............how is this not intuitive ? > Alt B selects Bcc All of these are *localized access keys*, so they will only apply to en-US localization. You'll be first person to suffer when supporting users because you will not be able to guess the localized equivalent of Alt+C for Finnish where it might end up as Alt+N for "CC" in Finnish. Having international shortcuts looks like a massive advantage to me wrt support and enterprise deployment, plus easy migration from gmail to TB. > > - furthermore, I would not introduce more important Alt+* access keys at this time as we might have to disbandon those if we switch to browser's Alt+Shift+* access keys. > > Am I missing something here ? Why would anyone consider a switch to 'Alt+Shift', Thunderbird is not a browser and Why would a browser even consider to use 'Alt+Shift' as it is not a convenient double key action. That combination would be something rarely used as it is plain awkward. I agree that Alt+Shift+* is pretty akward. We're currently on auto-pilot wrt access keys. Check Preferences/options where Alt+Shift+* is used for access keys, just because this happens to be a Web page in a browser, and the Web standard has prescribed Alt+Shift+* for access keys (God knows why). We're changing our code to run on browser, so we need to take design decisions on this. On the upside, if we would use Alt+Shift+* as in-app access keys, they would be more distinct from main menu access keys (i.e. we'd have a larger set of in-app access keys) > > - less convenient on the keyboard > > Pressing just 'Alt' is not inconvenient. eg: 'Alt' + 'R' which selects 'From'. > It is much easier to only have to press 'one' key with one hand. Alt+B, Alt+T and even Alt+C with one hand are pretty odd. > Increasing the numbers of keys you need to press is not an improvement. You cannot assume everyone has ease of dexterity and not all keyboards have the Ctrl key in bottom left corner. I thought most desktop keyboards do... > > - transition from gmail to TB made harder > > I'm more inclined to say the focus should be on loads of long time users of Thunderbird who would be seriously not amused to have to learn new habits. I'm not sure we can speak of habit interference here because so far, To/CC/Bcc have never been directly keyboard-accessible. So all of these shortcuts are new. > Muscle memory is not that simple to adapt and changes that force this upon users are likely to get an unappreciated response. Dito. > There are already many complaints regarding the new 'Write' compose window and accessibility using keyboard. People in general do not like change and they are more inclined to be less positive when it comes to retraining after decades of status quo. > 'Alt + F' selects From - which users are already using, it is a natural progression and intuitive for the adjacent buttons to be 'Alt +C' and 'Alt + B' with the C and B underlined. > Retraining all the valuable long term Thunderbird users because some users change from gmail (gmail users expect a change) seems incorrect. I'm failing to see the retraining as we've never had shortcuts for these fields. We won't indicate access keys on the labels, so it's not like anyone could expect to get CC from Alt+C - we're just adding dedicated shortcuts here because Alt+* access keys are a limited resource. What you are forgetting is the main menu bar on top which usually requires a lot of access keys already. If we force duplicate access keys inside the app, we're making main menu access harder (users would have to press and let go Alt first, then the menu access key). We can opt to do that, but so far this has never been discussed. > > - transition from gmail to TB made easy > > I do not see this 'potential gmail customer' as a factor that should influence anything. > I believe we should be thinking more about Thunderbird's current users who do not appreciate needing to learn new habits that interfere with work throughput and are already trying to get to grips with version 78* and not thinking about potential gmail customers who would expect a change in learning when changing to a different product. After all they chose to stop using gmail. No, you're misunderstanding the situation. WE need to convince gmail users that changing to Thunderbird is something which is easy enough for them to take the plunge. A lot of young people have never heard of email clients as all they know is webmail, whatsapp, and facebook.
Bug 1667692 Comment 24 Edit History
Note: The actual edited comment in the bug view page will always show the original commenter’s name and original timestamp.
(In reply to Anje from comment #23) > Thunderbird uses the 'Alt + letter throughout the focus selection in the Write window. > Alt K is used to select/get focus on the Contact Sidebar 'address book' selection > Alt N is used to set focus in the Search Contacts. > Alt R sets focus on the 'FROM' > Alt C selects Cc ...............how is this not intuitive ? > Alt B selects Bcc All of these are *localized access keys*, so they will only apply to en-US localization. You'll be first person to suffer when supporting users because you will not be able to guess the localized equivalent of Alt+C for Finnish where it might end up as Alt+N for "CC" in Finnish. Having international shortcuts looks like a massive advantage to me wrt support and enterprise deployment, plus easy migration from gmail to TB. > > - furthermore, I would not introduce more important Alt+* access keys at this time as we might have to disbandon those if we switch to browser's Alt+Shift+* access keys. > > Am I missing something here ? Why would anyone consider a switch to 'Alt+Shift', Thunderbird is not a browser and Why would a browser even consider to use 'Alt+Shift' as it is not a convenient double key action. That combination would be something rarely used as it is plain awkward. I agree that Alt+Shift+* is pretty akward. We're currently on auto-pilot wrt access keys. Check Preferences/options where Alt+Shift+* is used for access keys, just because this happens to be a Web page in a browser, and the Web standard has prescribed Alt+Shift+* for access keys (God knows why). We're changing our code to run on browser, so we need to take design decisions on this. On the upside, if we would use Alt+Shift+* as in-app access keys, they would be more distinct from main menu access keys (i.e. we'd have a larger set of in-app access keys) > > - less convenient on the keyboard > > Pressing just 'Alt' is not inconvenient. eg: 'Alt' + 'R' which selects 'From'. > It is much easier to only have to press 'one' key with one hand. Alt+B, Alt+T and even Alt+C with one hand are pretty odd. > Increasing the numbers of keys you need to press is not an improvement. You cannot assume everyone has ease of dexterity and not all keyboards have the Ctrl key in bottom left corner. I thought most desktop keyboards do... > > - transition from gmail to TB made harder > > I'm more inclined to say the focus should be on loads of long time users of Thunderbird who would be seriously not amused to have to learn new habits. I'm not sure we can speak of habit interference here because so far, To/CC/Bcc have never been directly keyboard-accessible. So all of these shortcuts are new. > Muscle memory is not that simple to adapt and changes that force this upon users are likely to get an unappreciated response. Dito. > There are already many complaints regarding the new 'Write' compose window and accessibility using keyboard. People in general do not like change and they are more inclined to be less positive when it comes to retraining after decades of status quo. > 'Alt + F' selects From - which users are already using, it is a natural progression and intuitive for the adjacent buttons to be 'Alt +C' and 'Alt + B' with the C and B underlined. > Retraining all the valuable long term Thunderbird users because some users change from gmail (gmail users expect a change) seems incorrect. I'm failing to see the retraining as we've never had shortcuts for these fields. We won't indicate access keys on the labels, so it's not like anyone could expect to get CC from Alt+C - we're just adding dedicated shortcuts here because Alt+* access keys are a limited resource. What you are forgetting is the main menu bar on top which usually requires a lot of Alt+* access keys already. If we force duplicate access keys inside the app, we're making main menu access harder (users would have to press and let go Alt first, then the menu access key). We can opt to do that, but so far this has never been discussed. > > - transition from gmail to TB made easy > > I do not see this 'potential gmail customer' as a factor that should influence anything. > I believe we should be thinking more about Thunderbird's current users who do not appreciate needing to learn new habits that interfere with work throughput and are already trying to get to grips with version 78* and not thinking about potential gmail customers who would expect a change in learning when changing to a different product. After all they chose to stop using gmail. No, you're misunderstanding the situation. WE need to convince gmail users that changing to Thunderbird is something which is easy enough for them to take the plunge. A lot of young people have never heard of email clients as all they know is webmail, whatsapp, and facebook.
(In reply to Anje from comment #23) > Thunderbird uses the 'Alt + letter throughout the focus selection in the Write window. > Alt K is used to select/get focus on the Contact Sidebar 'address book' selection > Alt N is used to set focus in the Search Contacts. > Alt R sets focus on the 'FROM' > Alt C selects Cc ...............how is this not intuitive ? > Alt B selects Bcc All of these are *localized access keys*, so they will only apply to en-US localization. You'll be first person to suffer when supporting users because you will not be able to guess the localized equivalent of Alt+C for Finnish where it might end up as Alt+N for "CC" in Finnish. Having international shortcuts looks like a massive advantage to me wrt support and enterprise deployment, plus easy migration from gmail to TB. > > - furthermore, I would not introduce more important Alt+* access keys at this time as we might have to disbandon those if we switch to browser's Alt+Shift+* access keys. > > Am I missing something here ? Why would anyone consider a switch to 'Alt+Shift', Thunderbird is not a browser and Why would a browser even consider to use 'Alt+Shift' as it is not a convenient double key action. That combination would be something rarely used as it is plain awkward. I agree that Alt+Shift+* is pretty akward. We're currently on auto-pilot wrt access keys. Check Preferences/options where Alt+Shift+* is used for access keys, just because this happens to be a Web page in a browser, and the Web standard has prescribed Alt+Shift+* for access keys (God knows why). We're changing our code to run on browser, so we need to take design decisions on this. On the upside, if we would use Alt+Shift+* as in-app access keys, they would be more distinct from Alt+* main menu access keys (i.e. we'd have a larger set of in-app access keys available). > > - less convenient on the keyboard > > Pressing just 'Alt' is not inconvenient. eg: 'Alt' + 'R' which selects 'From'. > It is much easier to only have to press 'one' key with one hand. Alt+B, Alt+T and even Alt+C with one hand are pretty odd. > Increasing the numbers of keys you need to press is not an improvement. You cannot assume everyone has ease of dexterity and not all keyboards have the Ctrl key in bottom left corner. I thought most desktop keyboards do... > > - transition from gmail to TB made harder > > I'm more inclined to say the focus should be on loads of long time users of Thunderbird who would be seriously not amused to have to learn new habits. I'm not sure we can speak of habit interference here because so far, To/CC/Bcc have never been directly keyboard-accessible. So all of these shortcuts are new. > Muscle memory is not that simple to adapt and changes that force this upon users are likely to get an unappreciated response. Dito. > There are already many complaints regarding the new 'Write' compose window and accessibility using keyboard. People in general do not like change and they are more inclined to be less positive when it comes to retraining after decades of status quo. > 'Alt + F' selects From - which users are already using, it is a natural progression and intuitive for the adjacent buttons to be 'Alt +C' and 'Alt + B' with the C and B underlined. > Retraining all the valuable long term Thunderbird users because some users change from gmail (gmail users expect a change) seems incorrect. I'm failing to see the retraining as we've never had shortcuts for these fields. We won't indicate access keys on the labels, so it's not like anyone could expect to get CC from Alt+C - we're just adding dedicated shortcuts here because Alt+* access keys are a limited resource. What you are forgetting is the main menu bar on top which usually requires a lot of Alt+* access keys already. If we force duplicate access keys inside the app, we're making main menu access harder (users would have to press and let go Alt first, then the menu access key). We can opt to do that, but so far this has never been discussed. > > - transition from gmail to TB made easy > > I do not see this 'potential gmail customer' as a factor that should influence anything. > I believe we should be thinking more about Thunderbird's current users who do not appreciate needing to learn new habits that interfere with work throughput and are already trying to get to grips with version 78* and not thinking about potential gmail customers who would expect a change in learning when changing to a different product. After all they chose to stop using gmail. No, you're misunderstanding the situation. WE need to convince gmail users that changing to Thunderbird is something which is easy enough for them to take the plunge. A lot of young people have never heard of email clients as all they know is webmail, whatsapp, and facebook.