Closed Bug 256088 Opened 20 years ago Closed 20 years ago

Status icon calls all newsfeeds RSS (even Atom)

Categories

(Firefox :: Toolbars and Customization, defect)

Product:
Firefox
Component:
Toolbars and Customization
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
trivial

Tracking

()

Status:
RESOLVED FIXED

People

(Reporter: mozilla, Assigned: kevin)

Details

(Keywords: fixed-aviary1.0)

Attachments

(1 file)

Picture of the new Live Bookmark status bar icon
1.80 KB, image/png
Details 
User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040818 Firefox/0.9.1+
Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040818 Firefox/0.9.1+

The new status icon, which appears when a newsfeed is linked to from the current
page, says "RSS" even when the newsfeed is not RSS (e.g. when it's Atom). This
may confuse people into thinking Atom is a kind of RSS, which it isn't.

Other UI uses the format-neutral term "feed" which is both more correct and more
descriptive, although less buzzword-y.

(btw I do understand that you're caught between the rock of pedantic gits like
me and the hard place of the uneducated hoi polloi.)

Reproducible: Always
Steps to Reproduce:
1.
2.
3.
http://diveintomark.org/ is one example where this happens.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
OS: Windows XP → All
Hardware: PC → All
I brought this up in Kevin Gerich's weblog post about the new images when they
were added.  Kevin responded by saying that RSS has almost become a generic
term, and he cited Safari RSS (Apple is making it generic, too) as at least
supporting evidence.  The arguments are more fully elucidated there, so consider
them before doing anything about this bug.  Look near the end of comments for
the exchange of thoughts.

http://kmgerich.com/archive/000068.html
I agree with Kevin -- RSS is these days used as a generic term.  RSS by itself
doesn't mean anything specific even -- there are 3 distinct types of "RSS" out
there, not all that compatible with eachother.  Atom just ends up being a
fourth; end users don't care what format their "RSS" is in.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 20 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
There are 9 incompatible versions of RSS[1], actually. And you can make 11
different types of feeds validate.

Atom is most certainly not RSS and shouldn't be called that way. "Feed", as
suggested in comment 0 is a much more neutral and better term.


[1]<http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/02/04/incompatible-rss>
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: WONTFIX → ---
(In reply to comment #3)
> I agree with Kevin -- RSS is these days used as a generic term.  RSS by itself
> doesn't mean anything specific even -- there are 3 distinct types of "RSS" out
> there, not all that compatible with eachother.  Atom just ends up being a
> fourth; end users don't care what format their "RSS" is in.

Thinking about it again:

"RSS" stands for "Rich Site Summary"; the Atom format is primarily used to
syndicate a selection of a website's contents along with appropriate metadata.
Sounds like a "rich site summary" to me.

If one considers "RSS" as a type of content - literally a "rich site summary" -
rather than a format, it seems suitable to describe an Atom feed as an RSS.
Users shouldn't have to care what format a rich site summary is written in.

An Atom 0.3 feed looks as much like an RSS 1.0 feed as does an RSS 2.0 feed -
there is no format which can be defined as "RSS".

The bug is that "RSS" is not format-neutral, but I now believe that "RSS" isn't
a format; so, I'm exercising my ill-gotten power as the reporter of the bug and
resolving it as invalid.

On the other hand, it would be nice to use the term "Atom Site Summary" and
introduce a large "ASS" icon in Firefox's status bar.
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Closed: 20 years ago → 20 years ago
Resolution: --- → INVALID
RSS also stands for Really Simple Syndication and RDF Site Summary. It is a
bogus abbreviation (note that Atom isn't an abbreviation at all).

I think the people who make these descisions don't know half about the history
of RSS and therefore make the wrong conclusions.
(In reply to comment #6)
> RSS also stands for Really Simple Syndication and RDF Site Summary. It is a
> bogus abbreviation (note that Atom isn't an abbreviation at all).
> 
RSS 2.0 isn't RDF, so RSS isn't (always) used as meaning RDF Site Summary. Atom
is also a really simple way of syndicating content.

> I think the people who make these descisions don't know half about the history
> of RSS and therefore make the wrong conclusions.

Didn't Netscape invent RSS?
> RSS 2.0 isn't RDF, so RSS isn't (always) used as meaning RDF Site Summary.
> Atom is also a really simple way of syndicating content.

Exactly my point, people don't know half of it. RSS 2.0 is a underspecified
specification. RSS 1.0 is based on RDF, just look at the /news.rdf on the
mozilla.org homepage.

Atom requires a lot more and can't be called really simple syndication.
Something that requires at least two dates specified according to some iso
specification I can't recall at the moment, a universally unique ID based on a
URI that should be interpretid as a string etc.

> Didn't Netscape invent RSS?

I this a joke? Of course Netscape invented RSS. It is about what happend after
that, with Userland etc...
(In reply to comment #8)
> > RSS 2.0 isn't RDF, so RSS isn't (always) used as meaning RDF Site Summary.
> > Atom is also a really simple way of syndicating content.
> 
> Exactly my point, people don't know half of it.

They shouldn't have to.

> RSS 2.0 is a underspecified
> specification. RSS 1.0 is based on RDF, just look at the /news.rdf on the
> mozilla.org homepage.
> 
> Atom requires a lot more and can't be called really simple syndication.
> Something that requires at least two dates specified according to some iso
> specification I can't recall at the moment, a universally unique ID based on a
> URI that should be interpretid as a string etc.

It's still pretty simple. The date format to use is 2004-09-21T19:18Z, which is
simpler than Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:18:00 GMT, especially for non-anglophones. I
find Atom to be simpler than RSS 1.0.

> 
> > Didn't Netscape invent RSS?
> 
> I this a joke? Of course Netscape invented RSS. It is about what happend after
> that, with Userland etc...

...because of which, "RSS" ceased to be a format and became the generic name for
a type of content.
Atom is well specified and I very much like it therefore. RSS 2.0 is easy, but
awful because it isn't well specified. RDF is just damn complex. RSS is a bogus
abbreviation because it has 3 meanings, you could ask Google for them using
define:RSS.

I'm just saying that the status icon should be called 'feed' or some other more
generic term.

I think that people who are implementing this stuff should now the history
because RSS has a lot of incompatibilities and troubles like non-normative,
contradicting specifications etc.
Why are we even discussing RSS versions?

The thing here is that the text on the icon is 'RSS' which works well for any
RSS version.

But firefox also supports Atom, and 'RSS' is not a good way to describe that, so
the more generic term 'Feed' should be used instead.
Or, ideally, it would be a symbol rather than a bunch of random letters.
Kevin Gerich has created a nifty one that I think should be checked in for 1.0.
(In reply to comment #12)
> Or, ideally, it would be a symbol rather than a bunch of random letters.
> Kevin Gerich has created a nifty one that I think should be checked in for 1.0.

Link, please :)
I'm reopening this one, because Stephen just checked in a new Live Bookmark
status and folder icon. Marking fixed-aviary1.0

My comment about RSS being a generic term is really beside the point. The icon
should represent the live bookmark feature, not the technology powering it.
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Keywords: fixed-aviary1.0
Resolution: INVALID → ---
I'm reopening this one, because Stephen just checked in a new Live Bookmark
status and folder icon. Marking fixed-aviary1.0

My comment about RSS being a generic term is really beside the point. The icon
should represent the live bookmark feature, not the technology powering it.  
Assignee: bugs → webmail
Status: REOPENED → ASSIGNED

    
    

    
  
The new icon looks very nice in today's nightly. However, live bookmarks still
appear as yellow folders in the bookmarks manager; is there a bug number for this?

    
    

    
  
I noticed that linux and mac still use the "RSS" icon (instead of the one in
attachment 160150 [details]) --does this bug track that, or is there another one filed for
that?

    
    

    
  
checked in the Pinstripe version on the branch

    
    

    
  
The status bar icon looks good on Mac branch build 2004-10-04-06-0.9  The icon
is now the broadcast signal icon.

Are livemarks supposed to have a folder icon that is different from a regular
bookmark folder?  The current Mac build does not have a livemark folder icon
that is different from other folder icons.  That should be a different bug, but
according to comment 15 it was already checked in.

    
    

    
  
Has the icon been reverted to the RSS icon again the latest builds, if so why?

    
    

    
  
Nope.

    
    

    
  
The new status icon has only made its way into a few themes so far. If you're
not using the default theme, you're likely to still see the "RSS" icon.

    
    

    
  
Yes, I had some old files .. I see the right icon now. Since the RSS icon isn't
used anymore maybe this bug should be closed?

    
    

    
  
This has been fixed.
Status: ASSIGNED → RESOLVED
Closed: 20 years ago → 20 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
QA Contact: bugzilla → toolbars

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