Closed Bug 359422 Opened 18 years ago Closed 18 years ago

UI: Support multiple windows, each mailbox in its own window

Categories

(Penelope Graveyard :: General, enhancement, P1)

Product:
Penelope Graveyard
Component:
General
Type:
enhancement

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED FIXED

People

(Reporter: mdudziak, Assigned: mcharleb)

Details

Should Penelope support multiple windows like Eudora does? Should each mailbox open in its own window instead of recycling the same window in a 3-pane interface?

If you would like to see a multiple window interface, vote for this bug.
Yes, I think there are a lot of users that wish to find this feature.
To my mind, this should be adjustable - I would like to prefer tabbed views rather than many windows...
Multiple mailbox windows is key to the way I use Eudora, and is the single largest reason I have not switched clients for any significant amount of time over the last ten years or so.
Yes, definitely multiple (child) windows like Eudora, not new parent windows like Outlook Express does, for example.  I'm not a fan at all of pane views; I don't even use Eudora's preview pane.
This is one of the main features that sets Eudora apart from the rest of the pack. I have never understood why people have wanted 3-pane interfaces (which just feels like dumbed down) or tabbed views (why create another level of "window management" when the OS already has a perfect mechanism for doing this).

There should be choice though, just like in the current Eudora. I understand that other people like the 3-pane interface better.
YES vote.
(In reply to comment #5)
> YES vote.
> 

Simply saying "YES" does not count as a vote. You actually need to click the 'Vote for this bug' link, which goes to:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/votes.cgi?action=show_user&bug_id=359422#vote_359422
Penelope should provide an interface that reflects the native interface of the OS it is running on. For Macs, separate windows is the basis of the way many people work. (I love the way when new mail arrives, all the mailbox windows they have been filtered into automatically open. Highlighting a line in a list of mailboxes just does not cut it!)

That said, some Mac users (often switchers from Windows) prefer 3 panes. Something that allowed for both models would be ideal.
Multiple mailbox windows is one of the main reasons I have not switched to Thunderbird. The caveat is the windows should be application based in stead of Desktop based. Eudora is the reason I still have a windows on my desk. Multiple windows on a multiple desktop would make keeping track of messages problimatic at best.
I currently have 62, yes, 62 mailbox windows open in Eudora, all stacked up on top of each other.  It's how I keep track of which e-mails have arrived most recently while keeping e-mails from the same sources separated from all the others thanks to Eudora's fantastic filtering system!  Another reason I want to keep Eudora unique from Thunderbird and Netscape Mail, not to mention OE (YUCK!!!!)!
Yes absolutely.  Like other posters, this is a key reason I continue to use Eudora (I'm compelled to use Outlook at work, and I can't stand it.)

Also, keep the existing tabbed view mechanism (sure, the OS has a tabbed mechanism too, but I prefer to have all my Eudora accessible via a single button on the Windows taskbar.  Maybe add an option to put the tabs at the top of the screen, as they are in Firefox.
I use Eudora at work under XP, and on my Mac at home. I prefer the way I can use it at work (even tho I prefer the Mac way in general). I have too much mail coming in to want to have windows flashing around all the time as it gets filtered to different boxes.

My In box ends up containing most stuff of immediate interest, so that is the main pane. The mailbox pane is there too so I can see which mail boxes need my attention. Using the tabs under the XP version leads to a LOT less mousing so I can switch to other open boxes easily (or open another).

The Eudora windows version is better because I can then dock the toolbar and shape it as I want to put it in the main window. Along with the preview pane so I can quickly scroll around mails using the up and down arrows, this leads me to a 5-paned main window - that I can move around as a single entity.

For me, its very important to have multiple windows and the tabbed stacking, and to be able to dock the various portions where I want in a main window. The thing is, that to nake effective use of a mail agent requires many windows open, and Windows Eudora provides a very good way to manage them. By contrast, for e.g. Word I want to have each doc that's open in an entirely separate window (as the Mac always did, and as Windows appears to latterly have moved to). That way I can have different Word docs on different screens. For such as Word I might have 3 or 4 windows open - easy to manage. For a mail agent, its *many* more than that and so although Eudora is still the best option for the Mac, it's a lot less handy to use because I can't join bits together as in the Windows version.
Assignee: mozilla-bugs → mcharleb
Status: NEW → ASSIGNED
The most important part of this is that mailboxes and messages opened when you closed Eudora, is still on Eudoras "desktop" the next time you launch it. I actually think I could live with multiple windows, if only the mail I left opened to be dealt with was re-opened the next time I start Thunderbird.

Also, please note this issue, that deals with tabbed messages in Thunderbird:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297379
Please, please, please keep the current Eudora-style interface of mailboxes floating around as child windows inside a parent container (and messages, too!)  I can't stand the 3-pane view.  I've tried Thunderbird and am forced to use Outlook at work, and just can't deal with it.  Based on the sheer amount of mail I get about different topics, I have it all going into different boxes.  It's nice to be able to survey them all relatively quickly.  I like being able to have a zillion mailboxes and messages open, but all neatly contained in one parent window.



(In reply to comment #13)
> Please, please, please keep the current Eudora-style interface of mailboxes
> floating around as child windows inside a parent container (and messages, too!)
>  I can't stand the 3-pane view.  I've tried Thunderbird and am forced to use
> Outlook at work, and just can't deal with it.  

We are moving away from the MDI interface. I did come across an extension that adds tabs to thunderbird which may be interesting to integrate. 

I am looking for a way to have separate windows for each mailbox supported (like Mac Eudora). Thunderbird current has all persistent window attributes apply to all windows which messes up the desired functionality of having one 3-pane view and creating other single mail folder windows (by collapsing the folder pane).
(In reply to comment #14)
> We are moving away from the MDI interface. I did come across an extension that
> adds tabs to thunderbird which may be interesting to integrate. 
> 
> I am looking for a way to have separate windows for each mailbox supported
> (like Mac Eudora). Thunderbird current has all persistent window attributes
> apply to all windows which messes up the desired functionality of having one
> 3-pane view and creating other single mail folder windows (by collapsing the
> folder pane).

This is a *very* important feature for me also! Besides all the other advantages people have mentioned, being able to forward attachments by just dragging the icons directly from a message I've received to one I'm sending is something I do a lot. --That's separate windows for each mailbox *and message*, but to me (a 10-year+ Eudora-Win user) it's the same idea. 


I'm not as lucid as others re: describing the windows but do want to say that Eudora's approach is what I still covet. I {now, also} use TBird-Mac because its IMAP-SSL will talk to Communigate, but I tried TBird-M$ once and hated it. I'd end up with 3-4 copies of the same message open & if I closed all windows; I'd have to reenter all my passwords. As I recall, the messages were OS-level tasks. [ie the task bar had {say} Firefox Wordpad OpenOffice MessageA MessageB MessageC where as Eudora kept its own...]
 
[It may have changed since then; donno..]

I hope the team does not think this is downplaying their work on the Alpha.

Like most of the posters here, I rely heavily on Eudora's ability to support multiple windows. I organize frequently used mailboxes in a series of non-overlapping tiles to allow easy scanning of filtered incoming mail. The result is many (6-8) windows, carefully arranged into a contiguous grid that takes up most of my screen (less-frequently used windows open on top of the grid, as per the normal behavior). But this arrangement requires lots of careful window-sizing and layout, relying on the Mac finder, in order to keep my grid of windows arranged.  A great new feature/add-on might support snapping multiple open windows to uniform sizes and to a grid, or (as comment #13 refers) providing a parent container that provides a mechanism for visually arranging multiple open mailboxes.

I like the flexibility of Eurora's current approach to multiple windows; however my main goal (and apparently the goal of some others here) is to be able to glance at the contents of many mailboxes at once, and even if multiple open windows were supported within a single window (not the 3-pane interface, mind you) then my goals might still be achieved.

YES! YES! I rely on this heavily.

I also want to have the Command-UpArrow and Command-DownArrow be able to move through messages in a single mailbox. This is a sine qua non.
The initial implementation of this will be persistent data per mail folder window (window size, screen location, selected mail, etc).

Each window will initially be a 3-pane window and the user can close the folder pane to mimic the Mac Eudora interface if desired.

- Mark
Priority: -- → P1
Target Milestone: Future → 0.1
Fixed in the Penelope Extension 0.1a10 available at:

http://eudorabb.qualcomm.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=379
Status: ASSIGNED → RESOLVED
Closed: 18 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: FIXED → ---
The folderPaneSplitter, ThreadPaneSplitter and selected email should also be persisted
Status: REOPENED → ASSIGNED
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely!  (and yes, I voted, obviously ;)

This is, hands-down, the best and most powerful feature Eudora has to offer.  It is nothing without the MDI.  At the very least, both mailboxes and email messages need to be child windows of the main Thunderbird window.  Ideally, the toolbar dialogs (ie.: mailboxes list) should be dockable as well, but floating it would be manageable.

And, yes, I realize that some people prefer the rather useless 3-pane UI (shame on you if you do ;), and that's easily achieved in existing versions of Eudora simply by maximizing the sub-windows, having the preview panes switched on and docking the mailbox list on the left (both the docked mailbox list and the preview pane are installation defaults anyway, so it's only a matter of of maximizing the mailbox child windows, a task even mere mortals can handle!)
I don't think Penelope needs to be any different.

["The most important part of this is that mailboxes and messages opened when you
closed Eudora, is still on Eudoras "desktop" the next time you launch it."]
Agreed!  This "memory" is very useful.

["We are moving away from the MDI interface."]
This is very disappointing.  Without this, I strongly believe Thunderbird is going to have very little success in wooing current Eudora users (including myself), and it looks like everyone else here seems to agree.

["I did come across an extension that adds tabs to thunderbird which may be interesting to integrate"]
Sorry, tabs are NOT the same.  They work for a browser, but not an email client.  In a browser, there's generally no reason to need to view more than one webpage at a time.  For the rare times that there are, you can just have two instances of the browser open.  But email is completely different: I have no fewer than five mailboxes open in Eudora at any given time, in addition to email messages, filter reports, text files, etc.

Matt (#17 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=359422#c17) summed it up nicely in his second paragraph: to be able to glance at the contents of multiple mailboxes to quickly and efficiently scan their contents.  Too amend that, I'd say that having email messages in their own individual child windows is equally as important.

I really do think that Penelope is hopeless without Eudora's MDI, and I don't think it's a smart move to nix the most prominent and sought-after feature of Eudora users in what strives to be Eudora's eventual successor.  Everyone is clamoring for it, so it should really be a part of Penelope.

Yeah, I've been blunt.  I'm just trying to drive a point home...I hope it worked :)
I wholeheartedly agree with epp_b! I make consistent and copious use of the MDI and honestly cannot use an email client that doesn't incorporate this.


Session management (set of open windows and minimized states) will be addressed in a separate bug. 

Last selected set per folder is also not persistent. If requested this will be a separate bug for a future milestone (0.5 or higher).

The thread pane info is now persistent per window. Selecting a mailbox from the mailbox menu will open a new window instead of modifying the existing one.

It is recommended to remove your localstore.rdf file from your thunderbird profile and to disable display of the start page for this to work well.

This bug is fixed in penelope 0.1a11.
Status: ASSIGNED → RESOLVED
Closed: 18 years ago → 18 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Version: 0.1 → Trunk
(In reply to comment #22)
> This is, hands-down, the best and most powerful feature Eudora has to offer. 
> It is nothing without the MDI.  At the very least, both mailboxes and email
> messages need to be child windows of the main Thunderbird window.

If this Windowism is foisted upon the Mac Users, then Penelope will find it's way into the bit-bucket. There's a reason that the Mac OS never adopted the Microsoft MDI and that even Microsoft discourages new application developers from using it. That's the one aspect (I'm not going to call it a feature) that I hate about the Windows version of Eudora.

If it's determined that the MDI must still exist, then please make it an option for Windows users. I'd prefer that not a second of coding time is spent trying to port the MDI to the Mac OS, but I'm sure there's some Windows immigrates that are used to this and mistakenly believe that it's better, so I realize that it may need to be re-implemented in OS X.

Most of the complaints regarding the non-MDI interface are really due to poor window handling: Zooming in the Windows "take over the whole screen" fashion and not the Mac OS "zoom only as large as needed to display the whole contents" fashion, Not remembering windows sizes and locations between launches, etc.

Ray
(In reply to comment #25)
> (In reply to comment #22)
> > This is, hands-down, the best and most powerful feature Eudora has to offer. 
> > It is nothing without the MDI.  At the very least, both mailboxes and email
> > messages need to be child windows of the main Thunderbird window.
> 
> If this Windowism is foisted upon the Mac Users, then Penelope will find it's
> way into the bit-bucket. There's a reason that the Mac OS never adopted the
> Microsoft MDI and that even Microsoft discourages new application developers
> from using it. That's the one aspect (I'm not going to call it a feature) that
> I hate about the Windows version of Eudora.
> 
> If it's determined that the MDI must still exist, then please make it an option
> for Windows users. I'd prefer that not a second of coding time is spent trying
> to port the MDI to the Mac OS, but I'm sure there's some Windows immigrates
> that are used to this and mistakenly believe that it's better, so I realize
> that it may need to be re-implemented in OS X.
> 
> Most of the complaints regarding the non-MDI interface are really due to poor
> window handling: Zooming in the Windows "take over the whole screen" fashion
> and not the Mac OS "zoom only as large as needed to display the whole contents"
> fashion, Not remembering windows sizes and locations between launches, etc.
> 
> Ray
> 

I have added an option to the penelope prefs tab that allows the user to select between a 2-pane window or 3-pane window UI style. 3-pane is kind of MDI like in its layout and replaces the current selection in window. 2-pane has a separate folders window and acts more like the Mac (launches new window per folder). We are shaking out the bugs in this and should have a new alpha out soon.

Regards,

- Mark
This is the most critical feature for me, and the main reason why I don't use OE or Thunderbird. I'm used to multiple windows and find the other type of interface entirely too limiting (not to mention frustrating.)
I vote for tabbed views (like in FireFox) rather than separate windows.  Tabs are neater, easier to use, and don't clutter up the desktop.
> I vote for tabbed views (like in FireFox) rather than separate windows.  Tabs
> are neater, easier to use, and don't clutter up the desktop.

That would severely detract from Eudora's ability to glance at multiple email boxes simultaneously (I never have fewer than four mailboxes open at once) and swap messages between open mailboxes quickly and easily (instead of having to hunt for its tab or in the mailbox list).

I see no problem with it being an *additional* option...actually, it should be exactly how Eudora currently works: when Eudora's sub-windows are "restored" (not maximized in other words), you can have all sorts of them open with different sizes, locations, etc. and you actually have tabs at the bottom.  When one sub-window gets maximized, Eudora automatically maximizes all of the sub-windows, still giving you the tabs on the bottom and effectively providing a tabbed interface a-la Firefox.
(In reply to comment #29)
> > I vote for tabbed views (like in FireFox) rather than separate windows.  Tabs
> > are neater, easier to use, and don't clutter up the desktop.
> 
> That would severely detract from Eudora's ability to glance at multiple email
> boxes simultaneously (I never have fewer than four mailboxes open at once) and
> swap messages between open mailboxes quickly and easily (instead of having to
> hunt for its tab or in the mailbox list).
> 
> I see no problem with it being an *additional* option...actually, it should be
> exactly how Eudora currently works: when Eudora's sub-windows are "restored"
> (not maximized in other words), you can have all sorts of them open with
> different sizes, locations, etc. and you actually have tabs at the bottom. 
> When one sub-window gets maximized, Eudora automatically maximizes all of the
> sub-windows, still giving you the tabs on the bottom and effectively providing
> a tabbed interface a-la Firefox.
> 

You're absolutely right.  I think what you're suggesting -- and indeed is functional in Eudora -- is to have tabs for opened mailboxes (maximized or not), with each appearing in a floating or fixed window (your option). This would appear to be best of both worlds.
I've just been forced to migrate to Win2K T-bird from OSX, at least for now.

I'm immediately reminded of what I hated about it vs. Eudora & Mac T-Bird. 

MS T-Bird opens each message as a separate Windows task/tabs; IE on the System bar adjacent to START. 

Eudora has ONE system tab, and opens the messages as tabs in EUDORA. Close them all, and Eudora is still running. Close the last T-Bird tab, and you must restart it, and reenter all the passwords...




Very favourable

This feature is one of the two that has always kept me on Eudora.  It is extremely useful to my on-screen productivity.
This is a must!

Clutter is a feature

I use Eudora's memory of my open windows as a way to track ongoing discussions or messages which need a reply. Closed windows mean I'm caught up. Open windows tell me to get busy. Message flags and such are too easily ignored by me. Please continue support for windows and messages in their own windows.

I support Mac users and have tried most email clients I've seen. I have been a user of Eudora since before v. 1.3.1. I stay with Eudora because of this feature.
I just completed my first month using Thunderbird, after 10+ years with Eudora on PC.

As it stands now, Penelope actually does a *better job* of window handling for messages and mailboxes than v6.2 Eudora on the PC.  Its ability to do "intelligent clutter" and clever uses of screen real estate are much better, particularly when you have more than one screen.  I have 3, and it works flawlessly.

IMHO, this requirement is more than satisfied as of now.  It's not precisely the same UI metaphor, but for me it actually works better than Eudora did (and I'm pretty picky -- I expected this to be a major roadblock for my productivity).
David, I'm not seeing what you're seeing.  I'm using Penelope 0.1a19 and I still see the same old [mailbox list] [mailbox] [message] UI a-la Outlook Express.

How did you get the "sub-window" UI going?
Hi Epp_B,

So if you have the main Penelope window open in 3-pane (MDI-like) mode (select this from the Penelope page of the Options tool that's under the Tools menu)... when you first start up Penelope you'll have the folders browser on the left, the folder messages view in the upper right, and the message preview view in the lower right.  

Now, double-click on one of the messages in the folder messages list--a brand new window (fully floating, can be resized and put on another screen) of that message will appear.  Using ctrl-^  (up-arrow) or ctrl-v (down-arrow, not the letter "v") you can navigate from message to message.  Very similar to what you could do with subwindows in PC Eudora, except the subwindow can be *anywhere* on your desktop, not confined to the real estate of the Eudora window.

Now try double-clicking on one of the folders in the folder-browser window (on the left of the main display).  This brings up a totally new window of Penelope, letting you navigate two folders (or more) at a time.  You can even drag/drop messages from one window to the other, allowing very quick reorganization of messages and folders.  In Eudora, you could sort of do this...but it wasn't as powerful.

The only thing that can be a drag is when you move big folders around.  In Eudora, it tended to allow this very quickly. In Thunderbird, moving a subfolder of messages from one folder to another can take a loooooooong time...and it's important not to get impatient.  If you crash Thunderbird in the middle of folder moves, you can corrupt both folders and make yourself quite unhappy. 
So far, I haven't had any outright message losses...but it's been close.
David, you've totally missed the point.

This is *nothing* like Eudora and nowhere near as powerful.  The *whole point* of the MDI is to have the windows confined within Eudora (or Penelope) so that the desktop doesn't become cluttered.  Now, there's no problem with having it both ways, but confining the functionality to something as limiting as what it currently is would be unacceptable.

So far, the only difference between Penelope and Outlook Express is that you can have multiple instances.  Whoopdeedoo.

The Eudora-like interface that most of us want is so far not, even in the least bit, mimicked in Penelope.  In Eudora, I have several mailbox, mail filter report, and email message windows open at any given time.  This is the whole point of having the MDI *within* the client, as no one (including me) wants to have ten Thunderbird windows open on the system taskbar.

I seriously hope that this attempt at Eudora's MDI functionality isn't considered completed, because what you have described is nothing like Eudora.
You're right, I didn't see the point you were trying to make.

As I run a multi-screen environment, my issue was "how do I get the most effective use of my real estate" and in that use case "problem solved."

It sounds like you're looking for "how do I get the most out of 1024x768 px (or whatever)" -- and I agree "problem not solved" in that use case.  I'm not an apologist or in any way involved with the Penelope team, I don't have any ax to grind.

You're absolutely right that Penelope's MDI is simplistic and is nothing like the way Eudora did it.  But as a 10-year user of Eudora on Windows, I'm at a bit of a loss about why "within one window" is intrinsically so important:

  * The taskbar issue can be solved through an WinXP UI tweak (I don't 
    remember which one) where anything more than N instances are grouped 
    in a single taskbar item.  So, keep N+1 Penelope windows open and that
    problem goes away.  (Of course, things may get much uglier in Linux or
    Mac versions.)

  * I haven't yet found a limit to the number of window instances I can have
    open at a time.  Seems like lots of different mailboxes, filter reports,
    and individual messages can be all operated on independently, but 
    simultaneously.  I may be missing something here, but I can't figure out
    anything I could do in Eudora's MDI that I can't do in Penelope.  

  * Memory utilization of multi-window vs MDI seems about the same (I have to
    admit that Penelope is a hog, but so was Eudora)

  * Reliability/crashworthiness of "multi-instance" should be slightly better
    than MDI (where a bug in one subwindow will likely paralyze/crash the whole
    app)...although this is speculation on my part.

  * Use of pixel space:  on a constrained screen, you can overlap window 
    instances to be nearly identical to MDI screen usage.

Help me understand the holes in my thinking.  Maybe there was an entire way of using Eudora that I never even exploited.

Dave

Hmm...well, a picture is worth a thousand words, which is probably beyond the length limit for this response ;)

So let me *show* you what I mean...

This is Eudora setup to how I use it:
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/728/eudorayo9.png

Those four mailboxes are open ALL THE TIME and very often there are more open, plus message windows.  Confining them within one main window keeps them from getting lost within the rest of my workspace throughout the system desktop.  And with them arranged this way, it's easy to quickly glance at the contents and sort messages among them without having to mentally index the mailbox list on the left.

This is the only way I'd even come close (but not very close) to Eudora with Penelope as it is now:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3308/tbirdnowyo5.png

That's five windows for five mailboxes (and don't forget about mail messages, search windows, etc).  There is no sense in duplicating every single UI element -- that's the toolbar, mailbox list, preview pane, menu bar, etc. -- for each mailbox.  It's inefficient, disorganized and far too easy to lose within a workspace where I typically have ten to fifteen or more other apps running at any given time.  Grouping them in the system task bar is not a solution for this either: I still have to find the mailbox I'm looking for in the list and I cannot keep the mailboxes neatly organized as they are in the Eudora window (nor can Penelope "remember" them this way).  Not so nice.

This is how I think Penelope *should* look and work:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6209/tbirdpotentialfg9.png
Obviously, the sub-windows here would be more elegantly organized as they are in my Eudora screenshot, but this is just a "picture" so I didn't bother wasting a lot of time to draw all sorts of different sizes of windows ;)  Still, I think this demonstrates my point.

Furthermore, to respond to your other points...

Effective use of real-estate: I use a multiple-monitor environment as well, but I still don't want mail windows all over the place.  It just makes sense to consolidate them into the mailer application window.

Limit: your limit of windows depends on your system memory.  It's not a lot different than multiple instances.  If you need more multitasking, get more memory.  That's not an issue for me.

Memory: (see above)

Reliability: crashes are rare and pretty much irrelevant in Eudora.  When it does crash, it doesn't really matter, because Eudora remembers your sub-window arrangement down to the last detail.  Getting back where I was before a crash is done within a matter of about five seconds.

Pixel space: The point is, I don't want to have to overlap as a result of each window being full of UI elements.  Like I said, quick mental glancing of each mailbox and ease of message transfer is why Eudora's MDI is so powerful.


I hope I got my point across.  Do you understand what I mean now?
I'm with epp_b.  Unless Penelope gets an MDI folder structure similar to the original Eudora (and completely different from Thunderbird; ie. like the third screenshot above) then there's no chance I'll use Penelope.  If I had wanted the three-pane-unified style then I would have just used Thunderbird in the first place.
Let me see if I can explain, at least for me, why the Eudora MDI implementation works so well. It's about how I prefer to handle the  hundreds of emails I receive a day. I have at least 6 mailboxes that regularly receive new mail that needs my attention. These get laid out much like epp_b's 3rd screenshot at http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6209/tbirdpotentialfg9.png except I have more real estate. I can now cover the Eudoa window with my other work. When mail comes in I can click on a single tab in the taskbar and immediately see all of may important mail windows at once, easily scanning the subjects and senders of new mail without any more selecting of windows, subtabs or other nonesense. I don't need nav bars or preview windows in any of the mailboxes, just lists of messages. 

epp_b has accurately expressed what I originally thought this bug was all about, "each mailbox in its own window" not the entire app UI in each window. Many of us who gravitated to Eudora did so primarily for this feature. For *me* (I am not speaking for *anyone* else here) the whole Penelope exercise is pointless if we don't agree that's where we want to take it.
["For *me* (I am not speaking for *anyone* else here) the whole Penelope exercise is pointless if we don't agree that's where we want to take it."]

I have stressed exactly this from when I first caught wind of the Penelope project.  The top killer feature of Eudora is its powerful MDI.  Only copying Eudora's sideline features to make yet another Outlook Express clone would be a shameful waste of the legacy you've been handed.
I have a feeling I can distil this down into one equation, for those brave souls working on the Penelope extension:

Eudora MDI = Every Mailbox Is A Document Window

Eudora treats mailboxes like Word treats documents, creating a separate window for each. It makes Eudora unique amongst mainstream e mail clients and breaks us out of that rigid "one-window-or-bust" interface style that seems to have taken a strong grip on the e mail client universe.

Not all Eudora users (myself, for example) necessarily keep all of their Eudora windows together. Here in MacOSX land, I can spread Eudora mailboxes out all over the place without the constraint of the background mailbox window (ie I can see my desktop and other apps between them).

I believe this is a make or break feature. I think that without a focus on this type of differentiator and a clear schedule for the delivery of a Penelope extension that mainstream Eudora users can work with (and it it saddens me to say it), there's a real chance that no-one will be listening when (if) a release announcement is finally made.
I'm now using Penelope under OSX; I have used Eudora & T-Bird under OS9/OSX & M$.

I appreciate the graphics as they illustrate many of my thoughts.

I once tried using T-Bird under M$ when Eurora would not work with a given IMAP server [Hi Dale!]. I HATED it. Not only would it soon saturate the system taskbar with documents; it would open the same doc multiple times; ie duplicate taskbar entries if, in trying to return to a doc, I would choose it again instead of going to the existing tab. 

Far worse, if I made the mistake of closing the last open taskbar entry, the %^*%^^* thing shut itself down. I would then have to restart it & reenter the passwords for the 5 accounts. 

Eudora always knew I already had a message open, and no matter how I navigated back to it; it took me to that existing instance. If I closed all the messages it was still err Energized -- I got new mail, fine; I was ready to reply to an old message, OK again. I hid Eudora, all its messages hid. Joy.

I've always been unclear on how Penelope was going to morph T-Bird into doing that but had and have high hopes such will be the case..


  
Perhaps I can explain why the Eudora feature of a document-like window for 
each mailbox is powerful.  This feature makes it possible for me to use Eudora 
as a task manager.  Most of my "mailboxes" never receive mail.  I'll call them 
task boxes.  I can transfer messages from any mailbox to any one of my task 
boxes.  Within a task box, I can sort by priority, date, sender, subject, etc.  The 
results of the sort appear in another document-like window.  Looking at 
multiple open task boxes and search windows simultaneously, I can decide 
which messages to act on, and in what order.  This workflow functionality is 
the envy of all the Outlook users who know about it.  It's the key differentiator 
for Eudora/Penelope.  

Other apps (for example, Mail.app in Mac OS X) permit you to create lots of 
mailboxes, but the mailboxes don't appear in separate windows that you can 
look at simultaneously.  Also, these wannabe Eudora competitors are crippled 
by abysmal search functionality.

Having a toolbar for each window would be superfluous (and that's putting it 
mildly).  There should be one toolbar, and it should apply to the foreground 
window,  whichever one that is.

(In reply to comment #43)
> Let me see if I can explain, at least for me, why the Eudora MDI implementation
> works so well. It's about how I prefer to handle the  hundreds of emails I
> receive a day. I have at least 6 mailboxes that regularly receive new mail that
> needs my attention. These get laid out much like epp_b's 3rd screenshot at
> http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6209/tbirdpotentialfg9.png except I have
> more real estate. I can now cover the Eudoa window with my other work. When
> mail comes in I can click on a single tab in the taskbar and immediately see
> all of may important mail windows at once, easily scanning the subjects and
> senders of new mail without any more selecting of windows, subtabs or other
> nonesense. I don't need nav bars or preview windows in any of the mailboxes,
> just lists of messages. 
> 
> epp_b has accurately expressed what I originally thought this bug was all
> about, "each mailbox in its own window" not the entire app UI in each window.
> Many of us who gravitated to Eudora did so primarily for this feature. For *me*
> (I am not speaking for *anyone* else here) the whole Penelope exercise is
> pointless if we don't agree that's where we want to take it.
> 


<<<Other apps (for example, Mail.app in Mac OS X) permit you to create lots of 
mailboxes, but the mailboxes don't appear in separate windows that you can 
look at simultaneously.  Also, these wannabe Eudora competitors are crippled 
by abysmal search functionality.>>>

I've just been into Mail and had a look. 

You could knock me over with a feather!

Mail can show multiple mailboxes in separate windows. It allows you to turn the toolbar off arbitrarily in each window. (I can do a setup that looks just like my Eudora! **It remembers where mailbox windows were when you quit!!!** It uses Spotlight for searching as well as it's own save-able built in fast search across multiple mailboxes with Smart Mailboxes.

It's all about the "New Viewer Window" command in the File Menu.

(Not that I'm trying to sell it to anyone).
I have to assume that, at some point, the current Eudora will cease to function on some future Windows version and it will therefore be necessary to replace it with something.

Without the MDI interface, I'd see relatively little reason to adopt the "new Eudora".  In that case, I might as well just use Thunderbird and not bother with Eudora/Penelope.
(In reply to comment #0)
> Should Penelope support multiple windows like Eudora does? Should each mailbox
> open in its own window instead of recycling the same window in a 3-pane
> interface?
> 
> If you would like to see a multiple window interface, vote for this bug.
> 


(In reply to comment #7)
> Penelope should provide an interface that reflects the native interface of the
> OS it is running on. For Macs, separate windows is the basis of the way many
> people work. (I love the way when new mail arrives, all the mailbox windows
> they have been filtered into automatically open. Highlighting a line in a list
> of mailboxes just does not cut it!)
> 
> That said, some Mac users (often switchers from Windows) prefer 3 panes.
> Something that allowed for both models would be ideal.
> 


(In reply to comment #15)
> (In reply to comment #14)
> > We are moving away from the MDI interface. I did come across an extension that
> > adds tabs to thunderbird which may be interesting to integrate. 
> > 
> > I am looking for a way to have separate windows for each mailbox supported
> > (like Mac Eudora). Thunderbird current has all persistent window attributes
> > apply to all windows which messes up the desired functionality of having one
> > 3-pane view and creating other single mail folder windows (by collapsing the
> > folder pane).
> 
> This is a *very* important feature for me also! Besides all the other
> advantages people have mentioned, being able to forward attachments by just
> dragging the icons directly from a message I've received to one I'm sending is
> something I do a lot. --That's separate windows for each mailbox *and message*,
> but to me (a 10-year+ Eudora-Win user) it's the same idea. 
> 

I've about given up on Thunderbird and the Penelope extension because each incoming message,  many of them crucial to my professional and personal life now as with anyone who begins to live on email, gets lost in the maze of folders.  In fact, for some reason some incoming messages which are filtered into folders don't even bold the folder in the latest version of Thunderbird and in the Penelope extension.   This is disaster.   If I could beg for one thing in Thunderbird it would be mailboxes/folders that open when they receive an incoming message, at least as many open mailboxes as there are incoming messages - and more if you want to open other mailboxes to review them. Anything that contributes to the possibility of losing incoming messages renders an email program a liability.   Not sure what I'm going to do but moving beyond the three frame format and permitting as many open mailboxes at once as you need is make or break for me.   I'll find another email client.   Go back to the old, dead Eudora, I guess, since Outlook is out of the question.
(In reply to comment #13)
> Please, please, please keep the current Eudora-style interface of mailboxes
> floating around as child windows inside a parent container (and messages, too!)
>  I can't stand the 3-pane view.  I've tried Thunderbird and am forced to use
> Outlook at work, and just can't deal with it.  Based on the sheer amount of
> mail I get about different topics, I have it all going into different boxes. 
> It's nice to be able to survey them all relatively quickly.  I like being able
> to have a zillion mailboxes and messages open, but all neatly contained in one
> parent window.
> 

Don't know how many of these comments I should continue to reply to but the issue of multiple mailboxes open at the same time and all mailboxes receiving incoming email opening automatically is crucial to my staying with this software.   The current Penelope extension isn't acceptable unless it fully implements Eudora's capacity to keep many mailboxes open at the same time (especially those containing incoming email).   Frankly, I've lost so many incoming emails in folders that weren't bolded in Thunderbird I'm just about ready to abandon the Mozilla email platform for good.  Maybe Eudora won't be developed further but it had what I wanted.   And I've waited months now for Thunderbird developers - or Penelope - to wake up and get it together.  So far zip.  The consequences can be lethal professionally and personally.
Their is another bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=382653 which addresses Opening Mailboxes when Incoming email arrives.   It has zero votes currently.  You may want to vote for that. 

That Feature (missing) is one of the biggest headaches about the new "Eudora".

(DISCLAIMER: I wrote the bug request, but it was 3+ months ago).
I'm not too familiar with how this system works, but since this bug is marked
RESOLVED FIXED maybe this whole discussion is moot if we hold it here. Perhaps
we should open a new bug that accurately reflects the feature we need and move
the discussion, and more importantly a whole lot of votes, the new open bug.
Maybe that way we could hope to get some visability.
Version: Trunk → 0.1
Not sure why I received an incoming email to respond to this thread but I will repeat what I've already said somewhere up the line.   Yes, multiple windows for folders receiving incoming email.  From what I've gathered from the Mozilla President's, Michele Somebody with Big Bucks, blog, basically Mozilla has abandoned Thunderbird.   So any hope that they'll respond to the torrent coming from former Eudora users who found the logic of folders that opened when filtered incoming email was directed to them impeccable, especially in a world where you live on email, can probably forget about ever seeing this feature on Thunderbird or Penelope.   The latter more and more looks like a dead-end that Qualcomm won't support to completion.   Certainly nothing new has come to us from that direction in months.  The original Penelope wasn't even as good as Thunderbird which is as an email client remains very weak in many regards.  No use getting into it again here.   They aren't going to develop either Thunderbird or Penelope or respond to the "votes" in this thread, no matter how strong the urgings of those who have experience with the opening folders for incoming mail logic.  My advice is to move on but where???
I know it says @fixed@ above but working with the eudora 8 I see I can make tabs for mailboxes. But......... When I close eudora 8 and restart it all my tabes are gone! Uodora 7 and before saved my open tabs and restored them when starting again. I would like to see that in eudora 8!
And the before mentioned feature to open an mailbox when there is a new mail in it. Very handy. That's why I use eudora already for 10 years.
What exactly is bloody fixed? 

And what exactly are you bloody voting for?

Do you have some nuts loose in your heads developers? Why is there even an option to vote for the main feature of Eudora that we all loved to use for decades? 

Who asked you to take a bug-ridden Outlook Express clone and turn it to Eudora?

Shame shame shame. Shame on all of you.

Jimmy

I firmly belive this bug is closed, as its in the next version.  However, there is a sub discussion, that is in the thread.  So I have opened a new bug which is DIFFERENT to this bug.  

The new one is Bug 417230 and coveres the third UI option, of multiple mail windows, BUT envclosed within one Eudora.

May I point out, I feel there are a few other items discussed in this thread,m that should be broken out into their own bugs, as without it, they will be lost in this "Resolved" bug forever!!
Target Milestone: 0.1 → ---
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