Closed Bug 375993 Opened 17 years ago Closed 6 years ago

UI: Tabbed window interface like Firefox (to emulate MDI)

Categories

(Penelope Graveyard :: General, defect, P5)

defect

Tracking

(Not tracked)

RESOLVED WONTFIX

People

(Reporter: an0n1m0us, Assigned: mdudziak)

References

Details

Attachments

(2 files)

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070309 Firefox/2.0.0.3
Build Identifier: 

This may be a duplicate of 

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297379

However the issue of supporting tabs has strong Penelope context.

Many years before tabs were popularised by Firefox, Eudora supported the MDI task bar. If you are an existing Eudora user who doesn't know what MDI task bar is, in the Windows version, click Tools -> Options, scroll to the Display category, toggle "Show MDI task bar" and you will see it.

I find this feature is critical to managing my email.

The MDI task bar also has built in 'session support' but this is a bug noted elsewhere for Penelope. 

Some work has already been done to place tabs in Thunderbird but I think this was the work of a third party developer, not internal mozilla/qualcomm programmers.

Please vote for this bug if you love the MDI task bar.

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1.
2.
3.
OS: Windows XP → All
Hardware: PC → All
Summary: UI: Firefox-like tabs to replace "MDI task bar" → UI: Tabbed window interface like Firefox (to emulate MDI)
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
Status: NEW → ASSIGNED
Woohooo, bug assigned!

Please let me know if I can assist with testing or feedback.
I really like being able to leave some messages open in Eudora, and still being able to close the app, with those messages available in the overarching Eudora window when I re-open Eudora.  a convoluted sentence, but i hope it makes sense.  If this is the same as an "MDI" window, then i'm definitely on board!  Sounds like it's probably not going to be possible to implement though.  Bummer.  This is a big problem with the thunderbird framework, IMHO.

thanks,
allie
take a look here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297379#c63

This is a build of TB 2.0 with tabs
Hi Allie S

It should not only be possible but I imagine somewhat easy. 

"MDI" is just the name that Eudora gave the bar that sits at the bottom of your Eudora windown, if you choose to use it. It's a lot like the Windows desktop task bar (the one that includes the start button and clock etc).

The "MDI" bar should, and could (IMHO), be easily replaced with the very mature Firefox tab bar. Once this is done, we should be able to move it anywhere on the screen; top, bottom, left, right because there is a Firefox extension that allows exactly the same thing with Firefox.

Now, as for re-opening the emails and mailboxes open when you last used Eudora, that is known as session restore and they finally built it into Firefox 2 as a native option so there should also be no reason this can't be easily ported from Firefox. However this is a separate bug atm:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366863
(In reply to comment #6)
> Hi Allie S
> 
> It should not only be possible but I imagine somewhat easy. 
> 
> "MDI" is just the name that Eudora gave the bar that sits at the bottom of your
> Eudora windown, if you choose to use it. It's a lot like the Windows desktop
> task bar (the one that includes the start button and clock etc).
> 


Actually, there is more to it than that. In Eudora, the MDI is a container window for ALL of the application windows, so even if you have 10 mailboxes, 20 incoming messages and 25 composition  messages open, there is only one item on the Windows Task Bar. With Mozilla apps (currently), there is a separate item on the Task Bar (or, if the Task Bar is set to group similar items, one item that becomes a menu of all the windows). Minimizing that one container makes all the various application windows go away.

It is a minor difference, but one that some people seem to like.

If a tabbed interface can emulate that, I think many of the current Eudora users will be very happy.

Matt
Ah good point Matt. I always turn off that group in the task bar option because using programs like firefox and eudora, I don't need it! 

Your clarification therefore really proves the worth of Eudora and highlights the question of all the other windows that are accessible via the Eudora MDI bar.

I didn't want to mention them too strongly because I thought it might be asking too much, however if Penelope is really going to replicate Eudora in Thunderbird I think the following windows should all open as tabs:

- messages (reading or writing)
- mailboxes
- filters and address book

I've never been a big fan of the address book and filters UI in Eudora so on a personal level I don't mind about those, but definitely messages and mailboxes should open in tabs IMHO.
Yes - what I'm really interested in is the container window & bar icons (MDI) coupled with session restore (ie, open messages, mailboxes, etc.).  For me, the advantage of the container window isn't so much that you only have one icon in the task bar.  Rather, it's that you can be working on email doing all sorts of stuff with half-finished messages written, etc, and you can then shut the app down with one click (not having to close 50 different windows), and then restart the app and be just where you had left off.

Thanks for all the work, penelope team!
According to my experience of over fifteen years the MDI task bar is not only essential but a unique feature. I have installed and tried Eudora 8.0 and felt lost at not being able to switch between mailboxes (and compose windows, address book and filter windows) at the click of a tab. If this is not implemented in the final versions of Eudora/Penelope I don't know what'll become of me. The ability to close the application leaving all the unfinished work open and having it there when you return is invaluable.
One other issue I want to comment on (although I don't know if this is the place is that once you read a message even in the preview pane it's marked as read. This is really annoying: I like to have pending messages as unread to remind me that they need to be taken care of.
I couldn't agree more Cefe with your comment about preview panes. I've always turned it off in Eudora mostly because it was a security risk since it was based on Internet Explorer code, but also because simply 'previewing' a message DOES NOT EQUAL reading it. Hence why there are two different words: previewing, reading!

If there is no way to turn off the 'preview' pane in future versions of Eudolepe I'll have to write this ability in with an Extension or by hacking the code as deep as I need to go!
Hi, friends, this is to say good-bye more or less. I'm joking of course, but not nearly. I have been snooping in the IDS forums for Odysseus and I am sincerely impressed with their project and disappointed with Penelope. This is mainly because their project is clearly focused on producing a mail client of proven high quality from scratch for which they are not embarrassed to take Eudora as a model and generate the necessary code. They have been wise enough to recognize that Eudora is "probably" the best email client available and no way is shorter than the straight one towards getting the next release of Eudora than making it. I can't less than appreciate the good intentions but don't fail to perceive that trying to make Eudora starting from Thunderbird is a long way that may or may not lead to the wished end. 
Perhaps I am a little bit too pessimistic but this how I see it today. Maybe you will get me out of this mood with good arguments.
The new beta of Eudora (8.0.0b2) is based on the trunk code for Thunderbird.  The trunk TB code has an implementation of tabs in it.  Mailboxes and messages can be opened in a tab instead of a new window (right-click to see "Open in new tab").

Now, there's still some more features surrounding this that could be added that would greatly improve things (e.g. persisting open tabs between sessions, double-click to open in tab instead of window, auto-open mailbox in tab when messages get filtered in to it, etc.), but this is at least a start.

Give it a test drive: <http://wiki.mozilla.org/Eudora_Releases>.
Jeff it seems to be taking quite a long time to replicate two of the most important Eudora features: tabs and session restore. Why?

Dunno about others but Eudora is not worth using without these features so until Penelope opens mailboxes and messages (composition and reading) by default I'm not interested. 

Thanks for all your hard work though. I'm sure evidence of it is elsewere or non-viewable to the user. Here's hoping for an early release of Eudora 8 in '08!
I would like to ad my comment as well.
I Agree with PD that working with the tabs and them be restored when reopening eudora is a must.
And yes I would like to be able to choose a setting by default that opens a tab on double clicking instead of a new window.
And with Cefé I agree that the quick read marking with the preview is anoying. I solved it by setting the time when soemthing is marked as read very high. But that anoying because when I answer the mail it is still marked as unread. Eudora does that much better.
I have good news for those monitoring this bug. before the holiday break I've been conversing with Jeff quite a lot with a view to helping out with development. 

Whilst this bug is specifically about replicating 'Classic' Eudora's MDI 'taskbar' buttons and related behaviour, Jeff has confirmed there is an intention to allow for removal of the 'preview pane' in future Penelodora releases. 

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn in stating that Jeff?

I've created a bug for this feature so that we can try to keep focus on this tabbed window interface bug. Please vote for it if you want this feature:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=410327
I am agreeing with everyone that the tabbed browsing feature. My previous Eudora would notify me of new messages by opening the tabs, and I could switch between mailboxes easily. Likewise, I don't want new windows but rather new tabs, and I want to have these tabs remain across sessions.

I am not a programmer-type who knows anything about how these things are accomplished but I can't see why if it existed before it can't exist again, and I thank those who are able to be more proactive in making this feature work. 

I can't find a voting button to vote for this feature, but please accept this as my vote.

Regards
CJ
CJ, the votes link is at the top of this bug page, on the right hand side of the Keywords label and box.

Please do vote for this. I intend working on a fix but the more votes the better.
Priority: -- → P5
I tried the right-click-open to get a mail into a tab. Would it be possible to add an option to make this the default behaviour, i.e. double-click a mail puts it in a new tab? This would then act like win-Eudora-7, and was very nice.
(In reply to comment #20)
> I tried the right-click-open to get a mail into a tab. Would it be possible to
> add an option to make this the default behaviour, i.e. double-click a mail puts
> it in a new tab? This would then act like win-Eudora-7, and was very nice.

Good idea!  I've entered that as bug 463720.
I like the {?new} tab feature in Eudora B4, but have a request -- better labels.

With IMAP mailboxes; each inbox is labeled "Inbox login@..." Only rub is, a) Often this gets shortened to "Inbox" alone being visible. b) All my email accounts are wb8foz@... so even if that shows.....

Plus, with tabs in use, the mailbox name at the top center is stuck, maybe on the initial name of the page. It does not change with the active tab. IMHO, it should.

A real deluxe scheme would allow you to assign colors to different accounts; color-coating the mailbox names whenever they appear...
I posted thios comment as well under the solved  bug 463720.
After installing the beta 5 the open tabs did restore after close.... 3 times. After that it closed them just as the relases before. Reinstalling did'nt solve it. So it is still buggy
I've found a new bug with tabs, or maybe it's another manifestation of my existing screen bugs such as <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465474>.

I have a window open with multiple tabs, but can't go anywhere. No matter which tab I click, the only thing that alters is the tab's highlighting. The body stays the same; the "menu" page. This has happened at least twice now.

Screen dump uploaded
I like the idea in <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=419706> but want to add another thought. Classic Eudora seemed to have a ruleset such that a mailbox, and/or a message, would be opened but once.

If you tried to open a new tab on a mailbox/message that already is open; it instead automagically switched you to the existing tab. 

T-bird originally drove me bonkers because I would end up with a message or mailbox open multiple times.
I've twice now gotten blank screens when I "open as tab" on a message. Not always originally, sometimes when I tab away and come back again. 

When this happens on a mailbox, a GetMail seems to help. On an individual message, it's not. I do note I can ^U and see the message source.
(In reply to comment #24)
> I've found a new bug with tabs, or maybe it's another manifestation of my
> existing screen bugs such as
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465474>.
> 
> I have a window open with multiple tabs, but can't go anywhere. No matter which
> tab I click, the only thing that alters is the tab's highlighting. The body
> stays the same; the "menu" page. This has happened at least twice now.
> 
> Screen dump uploaded


I think I MAY have figured this out. In your screen shot you have one of the tabs open on the 'wb8foz@8es.com' which is not a mailbox, but an account. When a tab is set to a top-level item like that, all the other tabs fail to work as expected. I doubt that this is intentional, so we'll need to look at this.

Please let me know if that explains the behavior that you are seeing.

Thanks, Matt
>Please let me know if that explains the behavior that you are seeing.

Yes, I can duplicate it by opening an account. Hopefully it's the only cause.
I've started 467578 to discuss/collect/debate wanted Tab enhancements vice bugs in what we have now..... 

I dream of going back to an all-tab environment as we used to enjoy with classic Eudora....
This bug seems to have been attracting it's fair share of traffic lately. I must admit to not having had time to read it all. I think it's time for me to show how I use Eudora at present and what I need Eudora to feel like before I upgrade to anything other than the current version I use which is 7.1.0.9 

What I mean by this bug is what you see at the bottom of the attached image. I don't mind too much if the tab bar is at the top of the window because I think any extension writer can move it, if Firefox is any example. However having tabs sit above the sidebar is just a mess. Not being able to open anything and everything in a tab is a mess. This is how I work with the Eudora now and it's how I want it to stay.
(In reply to comment #31)
> However having tabs sit above the sidebar is just a mess.

Why?


> Not being able to open anything and everything in a tab is a mess.

Having any window be in a tab is going to require a lot of structural reorganization of the tab code and possibly those other windows as well.  This makes it much less likely that it will actually be done.
(In reply to comment #32)
> (In reply to comment #31)
> > However having tabs sit above the sidebar is just a mess.
> 
> Why?

I think it's easier to reach if the tabs-bar is at the bottom of the area instead of the top. Weak excuse I know - perhaps I'm just too used top how it is at present in Win-Eudora.

> > Not being able to open anything and everything in a tab is a mess.
> 
> Having any window be in a tab is going to require a lot of structural
> reorganization of the tab code and possibly those other windows as well.  This
> makes it much less likely that it will actually be done.

Perhaps not everything. But mailboxes, messages-being-read, and messages-being composed are what is really needed. Typically one may have lots of these and it is nice if they don't clutter up the workspace.
I have a related new bug. It ties into Bug 359270.

I keep getting tabbed mailboxes up where somehow, I'm switched to the other Who field. I've not nailed it down yet, but it's happened several times. Until tabs appeared, I'd never ever been on the wrong Who....

As a guess; it seems to be when I reuse a tab; the tap is open on mailbox A, in 3-pane mode. I repoint it to another via the tree. Further guess; maybe it was on a Sent mailbox but now is on an incoming.

I'll keep banging away to try and narrow this down.
(In reply to comment #33)
> But mailboxes, messages-being-read, and messages-being
> composed are what is really needed.

btw, the enhancement request for allowing composition messages in tabs is bug 449299, and it currently has no votes.
I often leave email open to follow up on later and leave partially composed messages open to complete later once I either have time to finish them or have the necessary information to complete the letter. Either way, I need to have things open the way I left them so I can return to my work where I left off at a later time or the next day. Eudora does that. That's why I've used it since version 1 and have never considered switching programs. Until I find another program that let's me return to my work where I left off without having to search for everything and re-open everything, I'll have no choice but to stay with Eudora (the real one). 

I was so excited to hear that Mozilla was going to take over Eudora and update it. That excitement has turned into disappointment.
Status: ASSIGNED → NEW
This is fixed as far as I am concerned. We are never going to see the unified MDI of classic Eudora :-( 

But tabs like Firefox have been implemented.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 15 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
(In reply to comment #37)
> This is fixed as far as I am concerned. We are never going to see the unified
> MDI of classic Eudora :-( 
> 
> But tabs like Firefox have been implemented.

Then we will never have Eudora beyond name only.
(In reply to comment #37)
> This is fixed as far as I am concerned. We are never going to see the unified
> MDI of classic Eudora :-( 
> 
> But tabs like Firefox have been implemented.

What do you mean here Matt? I am guessing the 'unified MDI' might mean something different to you in a programming sense than it does to the user.

Personally I just want all mailboxes and messages to open as separate tabs and for the tabbar to be placed at the bottom of the screen like classic Eudora. 

I seem to remember seeing at least one Firefox extension that allowed the tab bar to be moved to left, right or bottom of the screen. That indicates to me that it would be possible to do the same with Penelope. Am I over-simplifying things?

My knowledge of mozilla is not greatly but isn't placing the tab bar in the interface about as simple as getting the XUL overlay to replace the appropriate piece of UI and / or to attach the XUL node to a DOM node within the the user interface?
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: FIXED → ---
I have read this lot..  Unfortunately, my old version of eudora is now not going to work as win 7 doesn't support it..

I was one of the first 30 or so to look at the first release of penelopee, I was also over the moon, that it was going to reproduced..  and every scrap of text was very clear it would look and feel just like eudora..  see where I am going, I guess with this yet??

every release I have installed, added my bugs, done a test or two, played with it, decided it wasn't ready yet, and kept my old eudora running..  

So this time I have installed the new beta, Microsoft outlook, and a few pointless others...

Eudora was different in a few ways..  actualy, look and feel isn;t the issue..  we can cope with the buttons different, and in different places..  

but it is how we use it that made it unique..  

having all the windows open, and close again, within the one interface..

I minimise eudora, and all my mail goes away, I maximse it again, and it ALL comes back...

Actually tabs does that for me.. would be nice to have the bar at the bottom, but I'll get used to that..  

but after a few more clicks, I have a few windows open, and now a bunch of them have tabs, and if I minimise one, there is another there underneeth..  so now its mixed...

next..  I leave messages open for a reason..  my reason..  but I also have two or three on a page, lined up next to each other so I can copy between them,.,  switching between tabs is not the same...  a true MDI is one of the key things that made eudora different to outlook..  

Matt   - I urge you..  rethink.  I think its dramatic to say its eudora by name only because of this, but in my heart of hearts as a eudora for over 13 years I actually agree..
I have Eudora 7 running perfectly on several win 7 machines.

Mitch
I couldn't agree more. There are three UI's as it applies to email. SDI (single document interface) MDI (Multi document interface) and tabbed interface. MDI and tabbed interface are not the same. Eudora was a true MDI and that is exactly what set the original Eudora apart from the others. Tab's simply are not the same. It's better than MDI, but not nearly as useful for email where it is often necessary to be able to see two or more windows next to each other at the same time. 

I understand trying to keep the compatibility between the new Eudora and T-Bird, but it shouldn't' be at the expense of Eudora's legendary functionality. I think that most of will understand that some plug-ins simply will not be able to work on both programs if the new Eudora is built with a true MDI.

As Eudora is currently progressing, it looks more to me like a re-skinned T-bird than a true Eudora.  I am hopeful that in time, this version will more closely resemble it's name sake.
If you want a true MDI interface (and not merely a tabbed interface), vote for Bug 417230.

I'm waiting for the true MDI interface before switching from old Eudora to this one.
I'm liking the tabbed interface in Eudora OSE.  Still need to include all windows tho.  Big difference between the MDI in cE and the new tabbed interface is I can read the text in the tabs.  Never could read the text in cE's MDI toolbar.
Penelope didn't see any activity in the vcs for the last 8 years, closing.
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Closed: 15 years ago6 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
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