639259 - Seriously, make Firefox button default on Windows XP.

Status: RESOLVED DUPLICATE of bug 612348

(Firefox :: Theme, defect)

Description

[Swapnil Rustagi]

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:2.0b12) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/4.0b12
Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:2.0b12) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/4.0b12

Make the Firefox button default on Windows XP. Firefox 4 is currently being used by only 0.62% of the world, still there are are 100+ users asking where is the Firefox button for Windows XP. When users with Windows XP using Firefox 3.x will switch to Firefox 4.0, then there will be 20000+ people searching for Firefox button on Windows XP. The ones who think that Firefox doesn't have button will simply switch to browsers like Google Chrome or Opera. 

Also Firefox button is default on Windows Vista, Windows 7. So someone can tell me why not for Windows XP. A valid reason for not making Firefox button default might be that the button size is too large on Windows XP. However, the users like the Firefox button, even Windows XP users. I have some strong points to have Firefox button default on Windows XP -

1. Windows XP users like the Firefox button. That is why many users have asked how to show Firefox button on Windows XP in Mozilla Support Forum.(http://support.mozilla.com)
2. Tabs-on-title-bar relies on Firefox button. With Firefox button not shown people running Windows XP would not be able to have tabs-ontitlebar.

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1.Install Firefox on WinXP.
2.
3.
Actual Results:  
The menu bar is the default.

Expected Results:  
Firefox should show Firefox button on WinXP.

Comment 1

[Justin Dolske [:Dolske]]

UX considered this and decided not to.

Comment 2

[Swapnil Rustagi]

I know this is a duplicate. But the bug was not fixed.

Comment 3

[Swapnil Rustagi]

Hey, this bug and it's duplicates are not a joke. If this bug is not fixed, then see -

1. The ones who are unaware and simply think that Firefoxbutton is not possible on Windows XP, will switch to different browsers. Google Chrome is a choice because of it's neat interface. The Firefox button is a competitor for Google Chrome's neat UI. However very less users running Windows XP will able to see the NEAT button. 

2. Tabs-in-titlebar relies on Firefox button. Windows XP users not knowing about the Firefox button will not get tabs-on-titlebar.

So, these are two reasons for supporting Firefox button on Windows XP. 
Mozilla, I challenge you, get me 2 VALID reasons for not having Firefox button on Windows XP and I would discontinue this bug. 

So, there

Comment 4

[Ed Morley [:emorley]]

This bug is still a duplicate, please discuss in the original bug/explain reasoning there: Bug 612348.

However be aware that it's already too late to include in Firefox 4, since the RC has been built/even if it were respun, this is too big of a change to just drop in last minute.

Comment 5

[Swapnil Rustagi]

Why did Mozilla decide not to have Firefox button default on Windows XP in the first place? 
And this is not a too big change. A big change would be to make the Firefox button. But the Firefox button has already been invented even on Windows XP. It is just that it is not the default. 

And you say that I should comment on the original bug because my one is a duplicate. The original bug is locked for me. I cannot re-open the original and mark it as unconfirmed. 

I request please don't mark this bug as a duplicate.

Comment 6

[Swapnil Rustagi]

If this is not done in Firefox 4 (should be done), then it must be done in Firefox 5.

Comment 7

[Zack Buhman]

I'm not quite sure what "Firefox Button" is, but I think what you're talking about is that "button" that's default on Windows Vista/7 (only when Aero/Compositing is enabled, I think) and replaces the menu bar.

Any build of Firefox can enable that by simply disabling the menu bar.  It's not enabled by default in Windows XP because it really just doesn't match what Windows XP applications are supposed to "feel" like.  The standard in Windows XP is to have a menu bar, whereas Vista/7 attempt to deprecate it.  The only reason it was conceived to begin with was to better integrate Firefox 4 with Vista/7.

Plus there's no real replacement for a real menu bar.

Firefox 4 has "tab-on-top" not "tabs-on-titlebar".

Try to reference/cite your sources.

Comment 8

[Swapnil Rustagi]

(In reply to comment #7)
> I'm not quite sure what "Firefox Button" is, but I think what you're talking
> about is that "button" that's default on Windows Vista/7 (only when
> Aero/Compositing is enabled, I think) and replaces the menu bar.
> 
> Any build of Firefox can enable that by simply disabling the menu bar.  It's
> not enabled by default in Windows XP because it really just doesn't match what
> Windows XP applications are supposed to "feel" like.  The standard in Windows
> XP is to have a menu bar, whereas Vista/7 attempt to deprecate it.  The only
> reason it was conceived to begin with was to better integrate Firefox 4 with
> Vista/7.
> 
> Plus there's no real replacement for a real menu bar.
> 
> Firefox 4 has "tab-on-top" not "tabs-on-titlebar".
> 
> Try to reference/cite your sources.

You are right. I am talking about that Firefox button only. And there is a tabs-on-titlebar feature in Firefox 4. For more information see : Bug 572160

And what you say that it doesn't match the style of Windows XP applications. Google Chrome when running on Windows XP, doesn't have a menu-bar. Opera when running on Windows XP doesn't have menu bar DEFAULT. Microsoft Office 2007 and Office 2010 when running on Windows XP, don't have a menu bar. 

Why didn't Google, Microsoft and Opera think that the menu bar should be there on Windows XP???
It is just because the menu bar is too old. Now we need new replacements. Honestly, using the menu bar frequently reminds me of a Windows 98 computer when menu bar was the base. Mozilla has done a great task by implementing Firefox button. But how will the public come to know?

Comment 9

[Zack Buhman]

That's absolutely disgusting: http://imagebin.org/141842  Having the tabs move to the titlebar only when maximized is a mistake imho.  

If "the public" is incapable of removing the menubar, then they probably don't care either way.  

Dolske already told you politely that the UX team already put serious consideration in to your issue, but they all agreed that it's not a good idea; they're not idiots.  The developers in here tried their best to be polite, and you're doing your best to be a complete **** (troll) and this bug will probably be closed once again.

Just because [software company] does it, doesn't necessarily make it right.  Probably for the same reason, I don't use office 2003/2007/2010, I don't use Chrome, and I don't use Opera.  So I could care less what other software has done (neither does the UX team, apparently).

Who said we need replacements?  The menu bar is immensely more efficient than any other attempt to replace it so far (less clicks).  I use Windows XP because it is much more well designed than its successors.  Simple, clean interfaces are usually the best route to go.  People that don't actually use computers, that have installed Windows Vista/7 that care more about eye-candy and use Areo already get what their after: perceived "eye-candy" at the expense of usability and efficiency (and performance, for that matter) which fits in with the theme of those operating systems.

We are talking about integration with Windows XP, not Office 2010--regardless, that "Firefox Button" achieves neither.

Comment 10

[Swapnil Rustagi]

OK, I will quit down this bug. 
But remember this -

>If "the public" is incapable of removing the menubar, then they probably don't
care either way.
>

The public is not aware that hiding the menu bar will give them a NICE button. The public doesn't hide the menu bar because they don't know that they can get a better control using a Firefox button. If Mozilla were to tell Windows XP users that they could have Firefox button, then all Windows XP users will be using the button.

Comment 11

[Terrell Kelley]

The UI is a direct copy of Opera and Chrome. It would make competitive sense to use the same system they do. They all disable their menu bar by default. Heck, even Internet Explorer does this now. It's expected browser behavior.

It is also bad design to make your program have fundamentally different UI on different operating systems. The UI team is not perfect, and we all contribute to Mozilla, and thus can have opinions. Note that the Chrome-style status bar is over the objections of much of the UI team.

Also, seeing as this change is just an about:config option, it is not in any way complicated to fix. I could fix it without even rebuilding.

Finally, I will point out that I have convinced a lot of people to switch back to Firefox by promoting Firefox 4. And one of the biggest draws was the new, less bulky UI. The last thing you want to do is create two different classes of users based on whether they use the latest Windows version. People like new UIs on old operating systems.

Comment 12

[Swapnil Rustagi]

@Terrell Kelley, If you think that this bug is valid, please vote.

Comment 13

[Benjamin Smedberg]

This decision as been made by the module owners. Do not reopen this bug.

Comment 14

[Swapnil Rustagi]

Mozilla has gone out of mind. Not using what power it has. I quit down this bug. If Mozilla has some intelligence left, I may reopen this bug in the future.

Comment 15

[Gervase Markham [:gerv]]

Swapnil: we welcome constructive and polite input into the Mozilla processes, but Mozilla is a meritocracy, not a democracy. If you continue to give our developers grief, we will have to ask you not to participate any longer.

Gerv

Comment 16

[Swapnil Rustagi]

Well, how to delete my Bugzilla account.