1003526 - [el] Consistent translation (or not) of Developer Tools

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(Mozilla Localizations :: el / Greek, defect)

Description

[sys.sgx]

User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/29.0 (Beta/Release)
Build ID: 20140421221237

Steps to reproduce:

Some DevTools Button text captions are localized (Inspector > Fonts tab-button), while the entire devtools platform is in English.



Expected results:

All Developer Tools should be in English, in order to improve devs communication. This resolves the need to ask for localization on new additions found on nightly builds

Comment 1

[Paul Rouget [:paul]]

Are you saying the devtools should not be translated?

Comment 2

[Panos Astithas (he/him) [:past] (please ni?)]

I don't think you'll get broad support if that is the case. Localized builds exist for people not well versed in English. In our text resources [1] we generally recommend that localization may not always be a good idea, but it's up to each l10n community to make the decision to localize a string or not:

"The correct localization of this file might be to keep it in English, or another language commonly spoken among web developers. You want to make that choice consistent across the developer tools. A good criteria is the language in which you'd find the best documentation on web development on the web."

You should bring this up with your local community if you think that a particular string would be better left untranslated.

[1]: http://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/browser/locales/en-US/chrome/browser/devtools/debugger.dtd

Comment 3

[Joe Walker [:jwalker]]

If you're saying something other than 'speaking English is a prerequisite to using devtools to create websites' then please re-open this bug. In general, we're trying to find ways to move in the other direction, expanding the locales that MDN is translated into (for example)

Comment 4

[sys.sgx]

What I am basically saying is that we should either have a fully localized version of DevTools, as with all the other menu options in FF, or we should have it fully in English, until a we find a way to translate the strings in the same pace new tools are being added.

IMHO, having a localized word every so and then in the DevTools, is not the best thing to do. I understand though the general effort. :)

Comment 5

[Joe Walker [:jwalker]]

(In reply to sys.sgx from comment #4)
> What I am basically saying is that we should either have a fully localized
> version of DevTools, as with all the other menu options in FF, or we should
> have it fully in English, until a we find a way to translate the strings in
> the same pace new tools are being added.
> 
> IMHO, having a localized word every so and then in the DevTools, is not the
> best thing to do. I understand though the general effort. :)

Ah - thanks.
So the state of the localization varies a lot from locale to locale. Which is particularly bad? Maybe we need to turn one off until it's better.

CC :pike, because he's got a better feel for what we should be doing here.

Comment 6

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Yes, l10n of devtools is full of hysterical crap, and a host of locales decided at various points to not translate them. Only few of them actually had the balls to back their translations out.

I'd like to make this more systematic, but that project isn't as alive and progressing as I'd like. But that's on my action items list.

The target would be to have devtools (and other techie stuff) in a technical language. That could be English, but also French for some part of Africa, for example.

Comment 7

[sys.sgx]

I will have to agree with Axel, there should be a consistent pace of L10n for DevTools (as new tools are being added frequently), and most probably this can only happen with a few languages. Currently, we have the entire layout in English, and the save button text is in local, which makes it seem like its a WIP.

What do you people think?..

Comment 8

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

sys.sgx, you'll need tell us which language you're actually using. Otherwise we can't help.

Comment 9

[sys.sgx]

Sure, I'm on the 'el' locale, same as :past :)

Comment 10

[Panos Astithas (he/him) [:past] (please ni?)]

To be honest, I haven't used a localized Firefox since ancient times.

Comment 11

[sys.sgx]

well..ok, you get the point. I believe have consistency in text strings gives a nice visual layout for FF.

Comment 12

[Joe Walker [:jwalker]]

I'm re-opening this because it sounds like we have a problem with EL that no-one disputes.

Suppose we remove all partial and messy translations - how many are left?

Chrome DevTools doesn't even attempt translation. I think we're right to continue fighting the fight, but I am left wondering.

Comment 13

[Francesco Lodolo [:flod]]

(In reply to Joe Walker [:jwalker] from comment #12)
> I'm re-opening this because it sounds like we have a problem with EL that
> no-one disputes.

I don't see the Greek localizers involved in the discussion, so I wouldn't call it undisputed.

Having said that: how do you plan to change it? Unless we provide a sane way to separate devtools localization from the rest, I don't see an easy solution. Also, some part of devtools are displayed in the main UI (context menu): what do you expect to do with that?

Comment 14

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

I'm moving this over to the Greek component.

Note, the localization hasn't been updated since 24, so some actual translation help could be needed, too.

The question around how we technically implement a more modular solution is good, but outside of the scope of this bug. I'm actually having a design chat with jezdez on Tuesday, but I don't expect any short term wins here.

Comment 15

[Joe Walker [:jwalker]]

(In reply to Francesco Lodolo [:flod] from comment #13)
> (In reply to Joe Walker [:jwalker] from comment #12)
> > I'm re-opening this because it sounds like we have a problem with EL that
> > no-one disputes.
> 
> I don't see the Greek localizers involved in the discussion, so I wouldn't
> call it undisputed.

Well it was undisputed until you disputed it! :)

(In reply to Joe Walker [:jwalker] from comment #12)
> Suppose we remove all partial and messy translations - how many are left?

A surprising large number it seems. I spent some time looking in the l10n repos for devtools, and there's real effort in many translations to keep up with this. It's possible that there are many poor translations - I can't tell, but we're nowhere close to total failure.

Comment 16

[sys.sgx]

The text on DevTools buttons are a means to developing. Local developers could find how to use these buttons, in order to code for the web, instead of having a fully localized version visible. IMHO since the devtools are rapidly changing and not every Mozilla dev can wait for L10n of new added features, we should convert it to English only until we have at least most of our new tools ready.

Comment 17

[Francesco Lodolo [:flod]]

Developers don't need to wait for l10n in any case, being devtools localized or not.

Comment 18

[Francesco Lodolo [:flod]]

DevTools are now almost fully localized in Greek, with only 130 identical strings. As Axel pointed out, we plan to improve things with FTL, but I consider this bug as fixed, since DevTools are now consistently localized.