1016027 - Kill the hamburger button (AppMenu)

Status: RESOLVED WONTFIX

(Thunderbird :: Toolbars and Tabs, defect)

Description

[Kent James (:rkent)]

The first thing that I do when I setup a new Thunderbird profile (which I do constantly in testing) is to enable the menubar.

A provider of office apps approached me about doing a custom Thunderbird fork that would also include Exchange support, and the key change that he wanted in Thunderbird was to enable the menubar by default.

I thought we were just part of a cranky minority until I read this blog post:

http://techcrunch.com/2014/05/24/before-the-hamburger-button-kills-you/ 

In summary, hiding menus behind three stacked bars ("the hamburger") is slowly being recognized as A Bad Idea. It is often tried in space-constrained mobile devices, but usage data consistently shows that it reduces engagement with features.

Thunderbird is not a space-constrained environment. People are using a full-featured client because they want the additional features. We have even less reason to be hiding a menu behind the hamburger.

Specific proposal: Enable the menubar by default, and make the hamburger button a toolbar button, hidden by default. So if users want the current UI they can get it, but the menubar will be the default.

Comment 1

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

It seems unlikely, given our desire to appear similar to the rest of Mozilla's products, that we'll kill the hamburger button before Firefox does.  Furthermore, since the hamburger button is getting more usage than the Firefox button it replaced, I strongly doubt Firefox will be in any hurry to get rid of it.

How do you feel about the reverse of your proposal: Add an easy-to-find toggle to enable the menubar and remove the hamburger button?

Comment 2

[:aceman]

Can this default be one of the features of the TB Pro (read Enterprise) version or addon?

Comment 3

[Kent James (:rkent)]

"It seems unlikely, given our desire to appear similar to the rest of Mozilla's products, that we'll kill the hamburger button before Firefox does."

You are probably correct.

Still, I think it is useful that we rethink occasionally past decisions and assumptions. Like, why is it important that we appear similar to Firefox (which is really the only other relevant Mozilla product, correct?) Firefox has an interest in appearing the same over a wide variety of devices, while Thunderbird does not work on those smaller form factor devices. Also, Firefox is trying to be a container for programs and therefore has a need to get out of the way as much as possible, but that is not the issue with Thunderbird, we ARE the program.

So why is there the "desire to appear similar to the rest of Mozilla's products"?

Comment 4

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

In Firefox, ugly AppMenu("Firefox +" button), whicj is automatically shown when menubar is hidden, is already killed by Australis shipped as Firefox 29. The ugly AppMenu("Firefox +" button) is replaced by new  "Menu Panel" which is opened by click of Hamburgar button. "Combination of  Hamburgar button.and the Menu Panel in Firefox 29" is pretty similar to "Combination of  Hamburgar button.and AppMenu in recent Thunderbird" . 
Difference is;
  Hamburgar button.and the Menu Panel in Firefox 29 :
     Hamburgar button is "button" which opens "panel". It's not removable from Toolbar(nav-bar).
     "Menu Panel" is "panel", is not "menu", which is functionally same as Toolbar, which is shown as box,
     which is matrix of menu-button/button, which can be called "button oriented menu".
  Hamburgar button.and AppMenu in current Thunderbird :
     Hamburgar button is "menu-button" which opens "menu". It's removable from Toolbar.
     Item opened by the "Hamburgar button" is actual "two column menu" which consists of "menuitem".

Will current AppMenu be kept in Thunderbird forever? Or willl "Menu Panel" of Australis be ported to Thunderbird?
If current AppMenu will be kept in Thunderbird forever, I agree on "kill  hamburgar button".
If "Menu Panel" of Australis will be ported to Thunderbird, I believe "enabling MenuBar by default again" is sufficient.
Why "hiding a toolbar button" is so important? "What was bad in Thunderbird" is "killing MenuBar by default", isn't it?

Comment 5

[rsx11m]

(In reply to WADA from comment #4)
> Will current AppMenu be kept in Thunderbird forever? Or willl "Menu Panel"
> of Australis be ported to Thunderbird?

Firefox has reduced the number of functions offered through the hamburger substantially, thus it's easier for them to accommodate all remaining functions in the icon grid. I sure don't want Thunderbird to go that way and minimalize the visible options (and even, as Firefox does, remove functions).

> Why "hiding a toolbar button" is so important? "What was bad in Thunderbird"
> is "killing MenuBar by default", isn't it?

In general, yes. Making the menu bar at least easier discoverable again would certainly help.

Comment 6

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

(In reply to rsx11m from comment #5)
> (In reply to WADA from comment #4)
> > Will current AppMenu be kept in Thunderbird forever? Or willl "Menu Panel"
> > of Australis be ported to Thunderbird?
> 
> Firefox has reduced the number of functions offered through the hamburger
> substantially, thus it's easier for them to accommodate all remaining
> functions in the icon grid. I sure don't want Thunderbird to go that way and
> minimalize the visible options (and even, as Firefox does, remove functions).
> 
> > Why "hiding a toolbar button" is so important? "What was bad in Thunderbird"
> > is "killing MenuBar by default", isn't it?
> 
> In general, yes. Making the menu bar at least easier discoverable again
> would certainly help.

visibility is bug 814742 / bug 790713

Comment 8

[Axel Grude [:realRaven]]

I think the menu bar especially in Windows from version 7 onwards has some design troubles (separating mail tabs from the 3mail pane) that's why I wrote my Addon "Menu On Top" which also provides some branding opportunities, that I had suggested to the Thunderbird planning group. Generally more complex apps (such as video editing / music sequencing / word processing / desktop layout programs) benefit from having a textual menu bar which makes a structured / Hierarchical discovery of advanced commands much easier than "Icon-soup".

The main question is, does the hamburger menu (which basically restructurees this hierarchy in a vertical / rightmost starting point) advertise this fact well enough? I think it comes from the school of minimalism that was started by designers like apple (QuickTime is a good example) with sometimes confusing choices of re-structuring the command hierarchy. As long as it is easy to switch back to the standard menu I am not convinced we should completely geet rid of the hamburger button - whether it should be the default in order to appeal to a younger audience that is used to the web 3.0 "clean" design is another discussion.

Personally I wasn't a great fan of collapsing a lot of complex functionality from a single point - it is similar to the windows start menu, we know wee can start all applications from there and yet we do create shortcuts on the desktop and on the taskbar, which is almost a universal behavior - squeezing through a single point for everything doeesn't appear feasible, but this may just be my own bias from decades of using "old school" software.

Comment 9

[Óvári]

Remove the AppMenu:
1. Right click on the Toolbar
2. Click 'Customize'
3. Drag off the AppMenu from the Toolbar

Add the Menu Bar
1. Right click on the Toolbar
2. Enable the 'Menu Bar'

A new user may not know this is possible and/or how to do.

Having, by default, the AppMenu removed and the Menu Bar shown would make Thunderbird more like an application in an office suite as opposed to a thin client (not sure if that is the correct word)

The Menu Bar would enable new user to discover features more easily too.

Please implement this improvement by Thunderbird 60.

Thank you

Comment 10

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

(In reply to Wayne Mery (:wsmwk) from comment #6)

(In reply to rsx11m from comment #5)

....

Why "hiding a toolbar button" is so important? "What was bad in Thunderbird"
is "killing MenuBar by default", isn't it?

In general, yes. Making the menu bar at least easier discoverable again
would certainly help.

visibility is bug 814742 / bug 790713

This bug and those cited above in part relates to the added menu items in the "revamp Help Menu" bug.

Comment 11

[Ryan Lee Sipes]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents (and a lot more) to this bug.

The menu bar, in my opinion, is an unnecessary use of pixels (an entire bar across the entire application), so I don't like discussions of getting rid of the alternative. But the menu bar should be made more discoverable. At the same time, the app menu is getting an overhaul in bug 1546309. We should let Alessandro take a look at improving how these menus are laid out and exposed to the user.

I'll NEEDINFO him to put this on his radar.

Comment 12

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Yes, menu bar discoverability is Bug 1073946 - Hint how to display Menu Bar toolbar, which is hidden by default
potential duplicate is Bug 790713 - normal menu is hard to find now when thunderbird has the new style app menu - implement (iconic?) TB AppMenu Button in upper-left corner of Tab bar, like in current FF

Comment 13

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Thanks for pulling me into this, really interesting usability and discoverability issue.
I personally think we should push towards an app that doesn't require a menu bar, but I'm aware that many users find that more accessible and some Linux distros rely on it quite heavily, so I definitely think we should find a good solution to let the users opt-in on having a visible menu bar without relying on the right click.

I'll take some time to research around and come up with some mock-ups we can discuss and quickly prototype.

Comment 14

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Attachment: menubar-button.png

This is the approach I was thinking we could pursue.
We could add a "more" icon in the main toolbar, all the way to the right, that opens the context menu opened by the right click.

I'm the first to admit that this is not an optimal solution, as it introduces another UI element similar to the hamburger menu, right above the hamburger menu itself. It's not the clearest access point, but it's definitely better than a right click.

We should also consider adding a Show Menu Bar item in the Layout menuitem section of the hamburger menu. That item may allow us to not introduce this button at all.

I consider this a temporary solution, as I think an in-depth redesign of the top area of TB is necessary to better use the space, reorganize buttons and actions, and introduce better paradigms in order to slowly move away from the necessity of having a menu bar in the first place.

Following up other screenshots of how the new button could look in different scenarios.

Comment 15

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Attachment: menubar-button-open.png

Comment 16

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Attachment: menubar-button-nocal.png

Comment 17

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

(In reply to Alessandro Castellani (:aleca) from comment #14)

We should also consider adding a Show Menu Bar item in the Layout menuitem section of the hamburger menu. That item may allow us to not introduce this button at all.

Some items above the Layout, the third from top to be exact, called Menu Bar does exactly what you want to introduce. No need to duplicate this.

Comment 18

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Oh, interesting.
I didn't notice that since on macos, for obvious reasons, is not showing up.
I think we should wait for bug 1546309 to land and then work on a better approach for this.
We could even consider copying with FF is doing, with the "Customize" tab.

Comment 19

[Anje]

Here's my two peneth worth ....

I would like to see Thunderbird made more accessible for all abilities.
eg: Not everyone can use a mouse.
Is the 'Menu icon' or three dot icon is accessible via a tab and then contents accessible via 'menukey' ?

Not everyone can open up a program and instinctively understand what to do when there does not appear to be anything helpful instantly visible.
I'm currently helping an 80 year old man using email for the first time.
I was interested in his view point when I installed TB and set up his mail account which asks automatically on first setup.
He had no idea what to do. He finds the hamburger a foreign notion. He wants to see words as they have more meaning to him.
I've enabled all Menus and made sure all buttons have text and icon selected.

I've also assisted a young woman with very poor eyesight. It is vital for some people to know that menus etc remain in the same location. A while ago her Thunderbird updated and all menus had been removed by default. She was in such a state. She could not locate anything. It may not seem important when you (not you personally but generic) are fully able to navigate and adjust, but it is important to others and their needs should be paramount because they are less able to enable or disable things.

The Menu Bar should be enabled by default because it is naturally intuitive for anyone, no matter what 'age' or ability whether they are new to Thunderbird or used it for donkeys years.
It is easy to access for those who use a keyboard.
Anyone can choose to disable it as a preference, but it should be remembered that a person familiar with computers will find it easier to disable than a person of more limited abilities or experience to enable. Some people can use a program for years and never go beyond the basics of what that program can do.

Putting it behind what some may perceive as 3 meaningless dots is not helpful and not intuitive. It is still hidden.
Yes you press 'Alt' but not everyone knows that.
You can right click on the 'Mail Toolbar' and select the option to enable.
The three dots is just another way of enabling when several ways exist and nothing is wrong with the idea - I like it.
It is not the point, you have to look at it from an enirely different perpective.
Accessing a shop is not so easy in a wheelchair if there is a ramp or steps or doorway too narrow or no means of opening the door without pushing it or if door only opens using a sensor that does not consider people who are short or sat in a wheelchair etc etc.

The point is anyone if they choose or prefer can disable it.
But not everyone can easily enabled it.
We should be looking at this from an inclusivity point of view and have the 'Menu Bar' enabled by default thus reducing the need to enable in the first place.
I also think the 3 dot icon is a good idea providing it can be accessed via using keyboard 'tab' and 'menukey' keys.

Comment 20

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Hi Anjie, thank you so much for your comment and for raising good valid points.

We're definitely extremely focused in making Thunderbird accessible for every user, and the efforts to make that happen are constant and ongoing.
The common goal is also to improve the interface making it more intuitive and accessible without the necessity of scrolling through dozens of menu items to find what you need.

While the Menu Bar is a well known interaction point for many users, it's not the most optimal.
We're working towards an interface that adapts based on the current use case, and quickly offers the tools based on the context, without the necessity of scrolling through multiple submenus to find what's needed in the moment.

I'm currently working on bug 1553231, make our toolbar buttons accessible via keyboard tab, as well as deciding which and how a dedicated keyboard shortcut should be applied to the main App Menu, or any other fundamental buttons.
Furthermore, a reordering of the voices in the App Menu will need to happen to increase discoverability.

At this stage, I can see how the Menu Bar feels extremely important and necessary, but it's our goal to improve the current UI and UX in order to make it unnecessary other than on some extreme edge case.

Comment 21

[Ryan Lee Sipes]

I'm going to close this bug. I think that the hamburger menu is here to stay and that the menu bar will be around for those who need it.