Open Bug 1410646 Opened 2 years ago Updated Last year

Fix "log into" and "login" instances in SeaMonkey Help documents

Categories

(SeaMonkey :: Help Documentation, enhancement)

enhancement
Not set

Tracking

(seamonkey2.55 fixed)

REOPENED
seamonkey2.55
Tracking Status
seamonkey2.55 --- fixed

People

(Reporter: Tonnes, Unassigned)

References

Details

Attachments

(2 files)

Some instances of "log into" and "logged into" in the Help docs recently caught my attention. We should fix them to use "log in to ..." consistently - see bug 1393151 comment 4 for more info.

The patch should do it, also includes some "logon"/"login"/"log onto" instances and slightly modifies the Log In/Out button texts for security devices.

Note that the section about Password Manager in using_priv_help.xhtml needs to be updated to match the proper strings and dialog choices. I left them untouched, and there may be more to update. (?)
Attachment #8920816 - Flags: review?(frgrahl)
Comment on attachment 8920816 [details] [diff] [review]
log_into_in_to.patch

Looks good. Big thanks.
Attachment #8920816 - Flags: review?(frgrahl) → review+
Pushed by frgrahl@gmx.net:
https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/afdac93f1410
Fix SeaMonkey help "log into/onto" and related instances. r=frg
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 2 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Target Milestone: --- → seamonkey2.55
I think, two non-native English speakers didn't do the right thing here.

(In reply to Ton from bug 1393151 comment #4)
> Please note that to "log in" is a verb - even a phrasal verb - a "login" is
> a noun. That means the following:
Correct. Same for "to follow up" and "the follow-up", "to set up" and "the setup".

> - One cannot "login" to something, but one can "log in" (or be "logged in")
> to something instead. 
Correct.

> - One cannot "log into" (or be "logged into") something either in the above
> context - phrasal verbs do not allow their "in" part to be combined with a
> following "to", as their meaning will simply change.
I beg to differ here.

-        assigned to you when logging into your computer.</li>
+        assigned to you when logging in to your computer.</li>
simply looks wrong.
https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&q=%22logging+in+to%22&oq=%22logging+in+to%22
23 million matches

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22logging+into%22&oq=%22logging+into%22
68 million matches.

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/logging-into-or-logging-in-to.1929898/
According to that, you "log in to check you mail", but to "log into your account/PC/etc."

Also:
http://www.grammarunderground.com/0238-handling-prepositions-with-phrasal-verbs.html
Of course we can also question whether “log onto” and “log into” are phrasal verbs in their own right. That’s not quite as clear – it’s determined by usage plus time, really.
Flags: needinfo?(iann_bugzilla)
I know what you mean. I googled yesterday for uses and login seems to be quite common now. But formally I think the change is correct.
Comment on attachment 8920816 [details] [diff] [review]
log_into_in_to.patch

Only changes I think should have happened are:

>+++ b/suite/locales/en-US/chrome/common/help/passwords_help.xhtml
>@@ -125,17 +125,17 @@
>   Manage Stored Passwords from the submenu.</p>
> 
> <p>The Password Manager has two tabs:</p>
> 
> <ol>
>   <li><strong>Passwords Saved</strong>: Click this tab to view the list of
>     websites for which Password Manager has saved your user name and
>     password&mdash;that is, the websites for which you selected <q>Yes</q>
>-    in response to Password Manager&apos;s request to store logon
>+    in response to Password Manager&apos;s request to store login
>     information.

>@@ -146,23 +146,23 @@
>     </ul>
> 
>     <p>If you remove an entry from the list, the stored user name and password
>       will be discarded, and you will need to log in manually the next time you
>       visit that website.</p>
>   </li>
>   <li><strong>Passwords Never Saved</strong>: Click this tab to view the list
>     of websites for which you selected <q>Never for this site</q> in response
>-    to Password Manager&apos;s request to store logon information.
>+    to Password Manager&apos;s request to store login information.

>+++ b/suite/locales/en-US/chrome/common/help/using_certs_help.xhtml
>@@ -395,19 +395,19 @@
>   security devices managed by each module below its name.</p>
> 
> <p>When you select a security device, information about it appears in the
>   middle of the Device Manager window, and some of the buttons on the right
>   side of the window become available. For example, if you select the Software
>   Security Device, you can perform these actions:</p>
> 
> <ul>
>-  <li>Click Login or Logout to log in or out of the Software Security Device.
>+  <li>Click Log In or Log Out to log in to or out of the Software Security Device.
Almost correct, should be:
<li>Click Log In or Log Out to log into or out of the Software Security Device.


>+++ b/suite/locales/en-US/chrome/common/help/using_priv_help.xhtml

>   name and password, a dialog box appears asking, <q>Do you want Password
>-  Manager to remember this logon?</q> When you see this dialog box, you can
>+  Manager to remember this login?</q> When you see this dialog box, you can
>   click one of the following buttons:</p>
> 
> <ul>
>   <li><strong>Yes</strong>: The next time you return to the website you&apos;ll
>     see that your user name and password are already filled in. All you have to
>-    do is click the Login button (or equivalent) to send them to the
>+    do is click the Log In button (or equivalent) to send them to the
>     server.</li>
>   <li><strong>Never for this site</strong>: Password Manager will not ask in
>     the future if you want to save your user name and password for that
>     website.</li>
>   <li><strong>No</strong>: Password Manager won&apos;t remember the user name
>     and password, but will ask again the next time you visit the website.</li>
> </ul>
> 
>-<p>Similarly, when you log onto an email account or an FTP site, or perform any
>+<p>Similarly, when you log in to an email account or an FTP site, or perform any
Should be "log into" rather than "log onto" for consistency.

> <p>The next time you check your email or perform other tasks that require a
>   password only, the password will be submitted directly without any further
>   action on your part. For tasks that require you to enter both a user name and
>-  password, you need to click a Login button or equivalent after Password
>+  password, you need to click a Log In button or equivalent after Password
>   Manager fills in the information.</p>

>@@ -498,18 +498,18 @@
> <ul>
>   <li>You use Password Manager to remember your user name and password for a
>     website (using the three-button dialog box described in
>     <a href=
>     "#using_password_manager_to_remember_user_names_and_passwords">Using
>     Password Manager to Remember User Names and Passwords</a>).
> 
>     <p>The next time you visit the website, Password Manager automatically fills
>-      in your user name and password on the website&apos;s log in page. You can
>-      then click the Login button, or equivalent, to send the information to
>+      in your user name and password on the website&apos;s login page. You can
>+      then click the Log In button, or equivalent, to send the information to
>       the server.</p>

>@@ -547,17 +547,17 @@
> 
> <p>[<a href="#using_the_password_manager">Return to beginning of
>   section</a>]</p>
> 
> <h2 id="viewing_and_managing_stored_passwords">Viewing and Managing Stored
>   Passwords</h2>
> 
> <p>To see the user names and passwords you have stored and to display a list of
>-  websites from which logon information never is saved:</p>
>+  websites from which login information never is saved:</p>


This is taking the logic of:
Using "in to" before a verb
Using "into" before a noun

Please can you back out the patch
Flags: needinfo?(iann_bugzilla) → needinfo?(frgrahl)
Attachment #8920816 - Flags: review-
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: FIXED → ---
Ton can you do a new patch to address IanNs issues.
Flags: needinfo?(tonnes.mb)
Thank you for the quick fix - too bad it got backed out for invalid reasons.

I’m sorry, but there is nothing to fix. The patch fixes the only remaining issues in the entire Mozilla products source tree (including current discrepancies in SM apparently remained unnoticed by others, excluding code comments), takes similar website occurrences into account too, and is fine as is.

There is no use discussing this ancient issue knowing many bugs with similar fixes already exist and the outcome is clear. All I can and will say is "to" is a replacement for "at" (see etymology), the only argument for attempts to justify this that one will find is "hey, but we’re entering some place aren’t we?" which makes no valid sense, and neither does the one about "logically" distinguishing between verbs or nouns following "in to". This is the official spelling, anyone having doubts should understand that and if not, at least try to understand that (or just consider) using "into" would be highly questionable to say the least and require all of these occurrences to be changed to that form if consistency is at stake, which will not happen.

Besides, this info is to be found in a style guide (both for "sign in to" and "log in to") so please respect that. Speaking of, please never even think of providing a Bugzilla comment based on assumptions that one may consider to be offensive. Please let others respect your coding skills, and respect those of others in grammar-related areas if needed.

Frank-Rainer, can you reapply the patch?
Flags: needinfo?(tonnes.mb)
Flags: needinfo?(frgrahl)
Ton,

I haven't forgotten it. I just can't and won't overrule a native speaker and need to look into this further. Unfortunatly with the current daily breakage and the bugs piling up in comm-central (including help currently broken) this one is on the backburner. I will keep the notification as a reminder.
Well, native speakers aren’t always right, you don’t need to look into anything further, and hence you did the right thing by approving it previously. But I’ll try to respect your decision and add the bug to my list of ones needlessly left open, knowing who’s to blame.

https://design.firefox.com/photon/copy/word-list.html#s
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/write-articles-knowledge-base
Well before this bug becomes ancient history and leaves a disgruntled reporter behind I took some time to look into it. I agree with Tonnes on most changes. I am not sure if login shouldn't be spelled log-in but this seems to be common use now. Was also not sure if a Log In button shouldn't be labeled Login but check bugzilla itself and you see Log In so all good here. I think a few of the onto changes should be reverted because they are about visiting and not logging in. I edited the updated patch directly and the -+ lines are identical where I changed it. Best viewed with notepad++ or similar whith just syntax highlighting activated

Fodder for thought:

http://grammarist.com/spelling/log-in-login/
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/5302/log-in-to-or-log-into-or-login-to
https://www.quora.com/Which-is-correct-%E2%80%9Clogin%E2%80%9D-or-%E2%80%9Clog-in%E2%80%9D
Attachment #8986266 - Flags: feedback?(tonnes.mb)
Attachment #8986266 - Flags: feedback?(iann_bugzilla)
Comment on attachment 8986266 [details] [diff] [review]
1410646-log_into_in_to-2.patch

Sorry, but your modified patch still contains errors (and my email BTW).

What you did is retain the "log onto a website" and "log onto an email account" instances, which are total nonsense and just doubly wrong. You can jump onto something, but officially there is no such thing as "logging onto" nor "logging on to" a system or place - not in any Mozilla-related context. If you feel the need, check the quoted resources in this bug and various other ones and you will (and should) understand - see comment 5 too.

Additionally, I don’t see why you changed one of three instances referring to a "Log In button" to a made-up "Log-in button". That’s wrong too - it’s simply the verb, capitalized in English for both parts just like other buttons including their references in Help docs (partly because no quotes are used), and "Log-in" should actually be used nowhere. Referring to a "Log In button or equivalent" is therefor recommended, similar to the security device manager. 

Please do not waste time, have faith in my contributions and moreover, respect the general and Mozilla copy rules and style guides rather than assuming wheels are to be invented in this bug (by non-linguists) in order to overrule or simply ignore them for some unknown reason.
Attachment #8986266 - Flags: feedback?(tonnes.mb) → feedback-
> What you did is retain the "log onto a website" and "log onto an email account" instances,

The first one is imho correct because it is about visiting not logging in. I wasn't so sure about the second one. That is what feedback is for :)  

> Additionally, I don’t see why you changed one of three instances referring

Was an accident.
Flags: needinfo?(frgrahl)
(In reply to Frank-Rainer Grahl (:frg) from comment #13)

> The first one is imho correct because it is about visiting not logging in. I
> wasn't so sure about the second one. That is what feedback is for :)  

Absolutely not. I can’t believe you thought so. :)

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