Closed Bug 164280 Opened 19 years ago Closed 17 years ago
.com - denies access to Mozilla
Ian, could you test with mozilla identified as something else, see if that works ? if it does, then its only a sniffing issue and need to be marked as [sniffing][havefix] ...
Not sure what [sniffing][havefix] mean but it certainly is a case of redirecting to forbidden if the browser type is not IE NS or AOL since the same behaviour is seen in Opera 6 on XP until you identify as IE5 then everything works fine. I wonder how their security 'experts' will resolve this workaround since http://www.marksandspencer.com/disallowed.html warns: To protect you from certain usability and/or security issues we currently do not support Opera, Mozilla, earlier versions of Netscape or IE.
[sniffing][havefix] just mean that we have a fix for this problem, and in this particular case, that it is sniffing related :) the fact is, they claim to support netscape 6.1, so it should work in any gecko browser imho. we need to check this (spoof the user agent using the user agent toolbar or the uabar - see http://mozilla-evangelism.bclary.com/sidebars/ - , and report here).
I tried setting different user agents in the UAbar but it does not seem to change anything - perhaps just as well since leaving it without default state allegedly crashes the start up. Perhaps there is more to be changed in prefs.js in addition to adding user_pref("signed.applets.codebase_principal_support", true); since http://mozilla-evangelism.bclary.com/sidebars/ mentions enabling agent override in preferences, it's not clear if that single line added will allow this.
Tested with UA string set to Netscape 6.1 and everthing appears to work, so adding necessary keywords. As Egan Face mentions though they may be delibrately excluding mozilla as per line on disallowed page that is displayed.
Whiteboard: [deny] → [deny][sniffing][havefix]
FWIW, build 1.1 under Linux is also rejected. According to my wife, this is recent behaviour - she said last time she looked (using NS 4.7 Linux) - it was OK.
I might be about o get a job there if I do i will assign it to me.
Priority: -- → P2
Summary: marksandspencer.com denies access to Mozilla → marksandspencer.com - denies access to Mozilla
----- Original Message ----- From: <Kari.Andersen@marks-and-spencer.com> To: <email@example.com> Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: Marks & Spencer Dear Tom Thank you for contacting us. I'm sorry that you are unable to access www.marksandspencer.com at the moment as we do not support the browser you are using. To protect from usability and security issues we currently do not support Opera, Mozilla, certain versions of Netscape or versions of Internet Explorer earlier than IE 5. We are currently working to provide an enjoyable browser experience on a wider range of client side applications, however, we currently recommend co-installing a later version of the IE browser family. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause you but rest assured we have every intention of enabling access for all major browsers in the near future. Kind regards Kari Andersen Website Manager - Customer Service & Operations E-Commerce Team
Hi Kari Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately I cannot use internet explorer as it does not run on UNIX. I have found that your site works perfectly using opera and mozilla, but only after I change the user agent identity to pretend that I am using your approved browsers. While I have heard many instances of security problems using the browsers you support, I have not heard of any that I can remember that affect the browsers that you prohibit which makes me wonder why you mention security as the reason for limiting your audience to certain clients. best wishes Tom
Dear Tom, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I have been out of the office on holiday. I can certainly appreciate the inconvenience that our current browser support policy may cause users of Linux and Unix. However, as I mentioned in my last mail, our technical teams are working on rectifying the situation and hope to implement a "fix" shortly. As you are aware, we did not take the decision to exclude certain browser groups lightly, however we felt that the quality of the online experience afforded was not in keeping with the desired customer service levels. Sadly, in the same way that we close a high street store to the public whilst refurbishment's are under way, we must also act to protect the online shopping experience. May I assure you, once again that we have every intention of supporting as many browsers as is commercially viable, and we hope that your patience in this matter is rewarded shortly. Best regards Kari Andersen Website Manager - Customer Service & Operations E-Commerce Team
Dear Kari No problem for the delayed answer! I am impressed that you not only answer at all but that you are doing your best to find out how to resolve this issue. Perhaps I could point out what I see as some possible misconceptions from your side. Firstly this issue does not just affect Linux/UNIX users, but anyone on any platform that is not "Wintel" or anyone who uses "Wintel" but who chooses not to use IE or NS to view your site. While I agree this may be a minority at the moment, I cannot see why you are blocking access to this group. To use your shop analogy, I am sure that you would not purposely remove access for the disabled even if they do not represent the majority of your customers. Secondly I can't see why you need to fix anything. When I set the user agent in my browser to spoof your server into believing I am using approved software, your site renders perfectly well, so I cannot see why you fear opening your site to everyone would have any impact on your desired customer service levels. In fact all you need to do is to ensure that your site complies with the standards provided by the W3C and this will automatically ensure that all browsers on all platforms can see you site, even if they have physical disabilities. Finally I admit I can use Internet Explorer, but for reasons of security and because I want to use what I perceive to be the best featured browser I choose not to. I look forward to viewing your site without having to change my user agent identity. best wishes Tom
This bug has now been reported in the news! See the end of this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/23/27756.html
The oddest part of this, IMO, is that they *do* support Netscape 7.0.
Whiteboard: [deny][sniffing][havefix] → [deny][sniffing][havefix][havecontact]
sending this letter. Accepting bug. ---- Dear Kari, AOL is now using the Netscape Gecko embedded browser in various versions of its AOL client software. (Beta version for Windows and a released version for Mac OSX). To prepare the roll-out of this new technology, my team is testing top sites in various standards-compliant web browsers. We found the following issues on your site when using these browsers. http://www.marksandspencer.com/ denies access to the AOL client for MacOSX and Mozilla. Netscape has a team of engineers that can help you at no cost so that your visitors, who are also our customers, can experience fully what your service offers. In fact, we already have a recommended solution we would like to share with your development team. I can see that you already offer access to Netscape 6.1 and 7 users. The AOL client for Mac OSX and Mozilla I used for testing are based on exactly the same technology used in Netscape 6/7 (the technology name is Netscape Gecko). The solution is not to sniff for Netscape 6.1 and 7, but rather to sniff for the "Gecko" string in the user agent string. Some sniffing techniques are detailed on our developer web site : http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2002/browser-detection/#introgecko you may also be interested in this article : http://www.mozilla.org/build/revised-user-agent-strings.html Feedback from the press for these two products is extremely favorable, and new users are adopting them more and more on all platforms, including Windows, Macintosh and Linux. However, this is just part of a larger picture, as: - the Compuserve brand (an AOL property) now offers a new Netscape Gecko-based client software to its 3 million users - AOL, the largest Internet Provider in the world (65 million users and 34 million members, not including the Compuserve brand) is now publicly testing beta versions of a new AOL client based on Netscape Gecko on Windows and has relased a final version for the OSX Macintosh platform. The current non-beta version of the software currently embeds MS Internet Explorer. - new open-source browsers such as Galeon, Skipstone, Beonex, OEone , K-meleon, Phoenix and Chimera also use Netscape Gecko. Please note that if your web site already supports Netscape Communicator / Navigator 4.x, it does not mean it is compatible with more recent standards-compliant browsers based on Gecko. In fact, Netscape Gecko is more similar to Internet Explorer 6. Sites often can serve content developed for IE to Netscape Gecko browsers. (See more information on http://devedge.netscape.com/central/gecko/ ) Please contact me (by e-mail, phone or mail) so we can work together on how we can prepare your web site to support millions of people that use a standards-based browser, and offer them with the best experience, and also provide an appropriate response to this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/23/27756.html Hoping to hear from you very soon, Best regards, --Tristan Nitot
Status: NEW → ASSIGNED
Got a reply from Steve Wind-Mozley, Channel Development Manager, E-commerce Team, Marks & Spencer. <Steve.Windfirstname.lastname@example.org> Started discussing his issues. I liked the subject of his message: "Marks and Spencer do not want to go lizard hunting" :-)
I work for these people can I help?
I was about to report a dupe of this - any sign of progress?
I have not had an answer to my letter and I assume that Tristan has heard nothing as well. If Alex is still working there he may be in a good position to provide some feedback about the status of this bug.
I had the following reply from M&S today: -----Forwarded Message----- From: E-Commerce@marks-and-spencer.com To: email@example.com Subject: RE: Website Access Date: 01 Dec 2002 10:58:20 +0000 Dear Mr Manning I regret that the website, www.marksandspencer.com, does not currently allow access from Mozilla and Opera browsers. We continue to work with our development teams to offer a wider range of browser support and are pleased to announce that Netscape 6 and 7 have been unblocked and may be used to access the site. I do appreciate that it is frustrating to be denied access to a site purely on the basis of the browser application you have selected and can assure you that the decision to take such action was made for valid reasons. As a retailer, Marks & Spencer has a vested interest in solving these issues and we will strive to do so to the satisfaction of our users. I further regret, that for policy reasons, we are unable to elucidate the nature of the issue. Kind regards The Marks & Spencer Online Team ----------------------------------------------------- Aren't we the lucky ones! They are letting us in to their site if we use NS7 (and promise to be good ;-). So I changed my Galeon useragent to spoof Netscape/7.0 and sure enough I can access the site. I have written back to them to point out how ridiculous this is - I will let you know the outcome if any.
This site is still a problem. I would recommend raising the issue to board level as the M&S web team (seemingly an outsourced one?) comments are clearly incorrect and ill-informed and M&S as an organisation do not deserve to be this badly served. I would be happy to take this on.
> I would be happy to take this on. Please do and keep us posted.
Have brought the glaring inaccuracy of the "Supports Mozilla (Netscape 6+) but not Mozilla" to the Press Office (terribly bad PR, don'tcha know) - I now have a contact there who is investigating and has left messages with the department head to call me on Monday (030428). If I get no joy, I'll go after Alice Avis (Marketing and E-commerce Director) and/or Stuart Senior (IT Director). See http://www2.marksandspencer.com/thecompany/whoweare/ukretailboard/index.shtml#biogs (which works fine with default user agent, as do the other group websites!)
*** Bug 206063 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
-> english other.
Component: Europe: West → English Other
For what it's worth, Marks and Spencer are still blocking Mozilla (as of writing 18 Jun 2003). I emailed to complain and received the stock reply that has been posted here twice.
I managed, after a fairly strongly-worded response to one of their standard form letters, to actually get a human response a while back from Steve Wind-Mozley, promising he was "pressure testing" and he would "unblock" Mozilla. That was February; it's June now. Hmm. Reply reproduced below as I think they've had more than a fair chance to fix this. From: Steve.Windfirstname.lastname@example.org To: me Cc: email@example.com Subject: RE: [Case 1124600] Web site problems Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:34:23 -0000 Tim, It's time for me to stand up and be counted. I am sorry my wider team was unable to answer all your queries to your satisfaction, however your responses have been most stimulating. With you permission I would like to include them in my web-dev induction guide for all new coders to M&S. On a more pertinent note, we are aware that Mozilla is the code base for Netscape 7 and you will know that the Gecko rendering engine can cause some issues with some forms of client/server message exchange. All this means that we know we have an issue and will fix it as soon as we have available bandwidth. Currently my web dev team is working on some exciting projects to meet the needs of another group of our core customer base. When this is complete, they will be set to work on freeing up all cross browser/platform accessibility and usability issues. However I must re-iterate, whilst we intend to serve as many combinations as possible, I must balance the cost of "fixing" with the possible benefits of increased trade. But hey, you don't want to hear my budgetary issues, you just want to use your browser on the site of the UKs leading retailer. Mozilla will be unblocked (OK it's not really blocked as you can bypass the settings if you wish) as soon as I have finished pressure testing the new code (yet to be delivered to the production site) as there is no point in turning it on, only to have to withdraw it again. Again, you don't need to know this, so you have my word that I am working on it, it is just in a queue at the moment. And no, we do not presume that we have found an issue that no-one else is clever enough to spot, we are just aware that we have seen behaviour from these browsers that we are not happy with. We have spoken with AOL/Netscape and will continue to seek a solution. If you feel the need to flame me or this response I would not be surprised, however I hope you will allow us the time to put this issue to bed. Best Regards Steve W-M Channel Developer E-commerce Team Marks & Spencer DDI +44 (0) 207 268 6276 GSM +44 (0) 7768 965 807 Shop online @ http://www.marksandspencer.com <http://www.marksandspencer.com> Neutiquam erro
Perhaps now is a good time to "flame" Steve W-M to remind him to "put this issue to bed"
en other default owner
Assignee: nitot → english-other
Status: ASSIGNED → NEW
QA Contact: brantgurganus2001 → english-other
As of yesterday the website no longer denies access to Mozilla. I would be grateful if others could confirm this.
Confirming, we can read this in the technical FAQ : "What's the best browser to use to shop online with Marks & Spencer? The Marks & Spencer site is designed to be used with most popular browsers, primarily Internet Explorer version 5 and above, Netscape version 6.1 and AOL version 5.0"
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 18 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
oops the FAQ hasn't changed actually ;) Opera 7 is accepted as well.
Some of the site works OK now, but not all. Try clicking on the 'money' link. It still says incorrect browser. Hence, re-opening, and hoping that someone else will confirm it still has this problem......
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: FIXED → ---
I can confirm that 'Money' does not work. However, the URL looks a little strange compared to all the others and it seems to be the only one not working.
Money appears to be a different server, though. I'd guess it's done by different people...
I've been e-mailing M&S Money about them not letting me use their website. They tell me they "don't support open source web browsers". I pointed out Netscape 7 is Mozilla. I suggested not blocking, but popping up a window telling me that the website may not work as expected. Still no luck.
The Money section doesn't block Firefox 0.8 nor Mozilla 1.7 RC 1 anymore.
the moneys ections seems to work for me... Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040421
This works now. Please can someone close this?
Closing, as per comments, and checking again myself. Apologies if I get the wrong resolution, or someone else should do this
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Closed: 18 years ago → 17 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Status: RESOLVED → VERIFIED
Product: Tech Evangelism → Tech Evangelism Graveyard
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