1710263 - saving new email message format as template takes too long

Status: VERIFIED WORKSFORME

(Thunderbird :: Mail Window Front End, defect)

Description

[Nick Levinson]

STR:

1. In the main email window, File > New > Message.
2. Don’t type text anywhere but do format something, such as the font.
3. File > Save As > Template.

Actual result: Progress window says "Copying message to Templates folder". Apparently, this will run forever.

Expected result: Either carry out the command (how long can it take?), automatically creating a folder if none is in place, or have the command invoke a way for the user to create a Templates folder before trying to save to it.

Additional info:

See also https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1129119 .

Only when I read https://www.lifewire.com/save-message-as-template-1165252 did I realize I'm supposed to create the Templates folder in advance.

See also bug 1710262 and, possibly relevant, bug 244289.

Fedora 34 Linux, kept evergreen, with Thunderbird 78.10.1 (64-bit).

Comment 1

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

It would be helpful to know why the Templates folder is missing.

Comment 2

[gene smith]

Tb doesn't automatically create a "Templates" folder. I just tried what the reporter did with gmail which doesn't have a Templates folder by default. When I save the the message as a template, tb creates the Templates folder on gmail server and puts the message in it.

I did notice that if I only set the font to bold and save the messages, it doesn't default to bold when I open the saved template. I have to include at least one bold char in the template for this to work.

You have to be sure that the "templates" folder is selected to the right folder under account setting "Copies & Folders".

Only when I read https://www.lifewire.com/save-message-as-template-1165252 did I realize I'm supposed to create the Templates folder in advance.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where you have to create the folder. For me, tb created it.

Comment 3

[Nick Levinson]

Since I didn't remove it, I assume that's a defaults design question.

Comment 4

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

Hmmm... a little bit of wrong or unclear information in many comments here adds up to a pretty confusing / distorted picture.

This is WFM on TB 78 and 91.0b2 (64-bit), win10.
Nick, for any further questions please go through Thunderbird support first:

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/new/thunderbird/form

(In reply to Nick Levinson from comment #0)

STR:

1. In the main email window, File > New > Message.
2. Don’t type text anywhere but do format something, such as the font.
3. File > Save As > Template.

Actual result: Progress window says "Copying message to Templates folder". Apparently, this will run forever.

In my tests, the progress window was just flashing for a second or so, barely enough to read it.
Occasional or permanent hickups or slowness can have a thousand reasons which TB has no control over, high CPU on your system, slow network, network trouble, disk access trouble (maybe other stuff pre-occupying your hard disk), hard disk full etc.
In general, this works. Maybe your expections were wrong. Here's exactly what will happen:

• Apart from that flashing progress window, TB will not provide any feedback after saving a message as template.
• The current composition will be saved as a template message to the Templates folder of the TB account used in composition (the account to which the currently selected identity in From is associated)
• If such Templates folder does not yet exist on the account, TB will create it automatically for you when you save your first template. Iow, it will be created only when you actually need it, which looks by design. Strangely, it can no longer be deleted after that even when empty - a bit odd, but not dramatic.
• Subsequent saves of the same composition will update the template, until you change the save flavor again.
• Font change without application to any text content is not considered a change, so it won't be saved in the template. Maybe wrong, but also probably wontfix.
• That's all.

Expected result: Either carry out the command
that happens
automatically creating a folder if none is in place
that happens, too
or have the command invoke a way for the user to create a Templates folder before trying to save to it.
not needed.

Additional info:

See also https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1129119 .

That's about having a global template for all compositions, probably not feasible in TB, not this bug.

Only when I read https://www.lifewire.com/save-message-as-template-1165252 did I realize I'm supposed to create the Templates folder in advance.

Nowhere do they say that you need to create a Templates folder. They just say that you can retrieve your template from the Templates folder after saving. TB creates Templates folder automatically when needed.

See also bug 1710262

Also WFM, just closed that.

and, possibly relevant, bug 244289.

That was fixed 16 years ago, please file a new bug if it's broken again.

Fedora 34 Linux, kept evergreen, with Thunderbird 78.10.1 (64-bit).

Is Fedora a linux distribution which ships its own TB installs? Such alien installs are known to cause trouble. We recommend using the original downloads from thunderbird.net.

Comment 5

[Nick Levinson]

There weren't many comments in this thread and they don't seem confusing. There were many comments across several threads, but that's why threads are separate.

I did check support first, as cited in additional info in my description post in this thread. Generally, I use support for individual support for myself and report in a bug tracker what needs attention for the sake of multiple users who may never use support but expect the computer to just work. Most users don't use online support for any product but only talk with humans, such as next-desk neighbors or on customer service phones. For them, the software has to intuitively reveal the solutions they want or the software, in their opinion, doesn't work. Product maintainers still prioritize and deprioritize as work capacity is considered.

The points like CPU state could apply but generally are unlikely to apply to one app but not others at the time, because an OS and a BIOS generally insulate an app from most of those conditions or reveal them across the board (I generally have several apps open at once and switch between them). Something like a wait state running for minutes for a fast operation if due to HDD fullness would likely apply to many situations requiring a similar wait state. We could speculate that almost every bug experience or support request is due to irrelevant unreachable causes but that kind of spec isn't much use. I generally replicate before reporting or asking, in order to eliminate an interstellar glitch being responsible.

While newly testing Tbird 78.11.0 (64-bit) on my Fedora platform, I deleted the Templates folder, which was empty, from my remote Yahoo account. It stayed in Tbird but trying to open it got a failure message because Yahoo reported that failure might be due to folder nonexistence. I quit Tbird and restarted it and then the Yahoo account in Tbird did not list a Templates folder anymore. I saved another Sent email as a template and Tbird again created a Templates folder both remotely and locally; I emptied the folder and deleted it from Yahoo; it was still in Tbird but quitting and restarting Tbird showed the Yahoo account locally but without the Templates folder.

The Lifewire article doesn't say to create a Templates folder but implies it in the instruction to go to that folder. Otherwise, there's no way to go there.

I listed possibly-relevant bugs not to call for fixing them (they may be old or fixed), but because what underlay them may be relevant even today, such as on code structure. I leave that to other readers of a thread to decide.

Tbird probably does not come with Fedora by default. I don't see Tbird or any mail client in the live form of Fedora 34. Fedora's Software app, used for installing apps, has two listings for Tbird v78.11.0, with different review ratings, and mysteriously lists one as installed and the other as not. Thus, the likelihood is that I installed Tbird through the Software app shortly after a clean installation of F34. I did not go to thunderbird.net to install it. I'm not inclined to uninstall Tbird and reinstall using the method you recommend, since uninstalling an app from Fedora apparently is incomplete, leaving many associated files in place in case the user changes their mind, and then, I think, installing from anywhere could result in mixups between old and new associated files. To avoid that, I'd have to do a clean install of F34 and then install Tbird your way (with new risks), and that's too much work. My guess is that most users will install apps using whatever method is native to that distro (I do to reduce risks of runtime conflicts within a distro) (Fedora might use Flatpak or dnf but I might well be wrong), so Tbird should, if feasible, be designed to minimize problems with various installation methods, although that's likely much easier said than done.

You seem to know about problems with Fedora's Tbird installation method and I don't, so you'd be better qualified than me to report that to distro maintainers (bugzilla.redhat.com has 49 Fedora Tbird reports in a simple search but I don't know if any are relevant to what you say).

Comment 6

[gene smith]

Thomas wrote:

Is Fedora a linux distribution which ships its own TB installs? Such alien installs are known to cause trouble. We recommend using the original downloads from thunderbird.net.

I've used fedora's TB rpm install for years with no problems, also ubuntu's version of "alien" installs work fine.

Not sure I completely understand the problem that reporter Nick is reporting in comment 0. Is it something that occurred once or is it consistent? Do you really have a need for an empty template message with only the font set? Anyhow, if you could restate the issue it might help.

Nick wrote:

While newly testing Tbird 78.11.0 (64-bit) on my Fedora platform, I deleted the Templates folder, which was empty, from my remote Yahoo account. It stayed in Tbird but trying to open it got a failure message because Yahoo reported that failure might be due to folder nonexistence. I quit Tbird and restarted it and then the Yahoo account in Tbird did not list a Templates folder anymore.

Yes this sounds typical. If you delete a folder at the server TB may need a restart to know it is gone. When you try to select it in TB, the server will report an error. This is not specific at all to "template" folder.

I saved another Sent email as a template and Tbird again created a Templates folder both remotely and locally; I emptied the folder and deleted it from Yahoo; it was still in Tbird but quitting and restarting Tbird showed the Yahoo account locally but without the Templates folder.

Sounds normal. You saved the template message and the template folder was created. Isn't this what you reported didn't work in comment 0?

Tbird probably does not come with Fedora by default. I don't see Tbird or any mail client in the live form of Fedora 34.

Correct, TB isn't on the live ISO. Are you using an install to harddisk? If you are using a "live" version running from USB stick it can be very slow.

Fedora's Software app, used for installing apps, has two listings for Tbird v78.11.0, with different review ratings, and mysteriously lists one as installed and the other as not. Thus, the likelihood is that I installed Tbird through the Software app shortly after a clean installation of F34.

Not sure if f34 is updated to TB 78.12 yet but probably is. But sounds like you have a full (clean) install of f34 hd. What does your "Help | About" show as the TB version?

I did not go to thunderbird.net to install it. I'm not inclined to uninstall Tbird and reinstall using the method you recommend, since uninstalling an app from Fedora apparently is incomplete, leaving many associated files in place in case the user changes their mind, and then, I think, installing from anywhere could result in mixups between old and new associated files.

The fedora uninstall should not do what you say. It should get rid of any dependencies that only TB needs and leave other libraries shared with other apps. (Maybe you are referring to TB's profile files. Yes, those probably do hang around on uninstall.) So you should be able to uninstall TB from f34 with no issues (except maybe the old profile). But I have my doubts that there is anything wrong with the TB version created by fedora so this would be a last resort.

To avoid that, I'd have to do a clean install of F34 and then install Tbird your way (with new risks), and that's too much work. My guess is that most users will install apps using whatever method is native to that distro (I do to reduce risks of runtime conflicts within a distro) (Fedora might use Flatpak or dnf but I might well be wrong), so Tbird should, if feasible, be designed to minimize problems with various installation methods, although that's likely much easier said than done.

Not sure TB can affect how the various linux distros package it. But I generally agree with your assessment. But, FWIW, you can always download the latest TB version for linux as a standalone directory (after unzipping) and run it from there without doing any install and you don't have to uninstall the distro's TB version. But you have to run TB from the command line. I do this all the time when I need to check for bugs in a certain TB version.

Comment 7

[Nick Levinson]

The problem has been solved, so I won't restate it. When it happened, it was repeatable.

I don't know what fixed it. If there was no patch for any purpose, maybe cleanly reinstalling F34 made the difference.

I tested with an empty message with the font set and that was only as a test, but I don't know why it wouldn't be realistic; I could set the font, font size, font style, and maybe more without having content in the template. But someone did say that having at least one character makes a technical difference with using a template later.

If I delete a folder in the remote server and Tbird is showing the remote account locally, Tbird should automatically immediately stop showing the deleted folder. If that's too hard to program, more intuitive than quitting and restarting would be a Refresh function, unless it's there and I missed it. I don't plan to research whether it's somewhere and file a feature request if it's absent, but it's a good usability issue. Feel free to do so, if you're interested.

On "[y]ou saved the template message and the template folder was created. Isn't this what you reported didn't work in comment 0?": The difference between comment 5 and the description (comment 0) is that comment 5 was after my retest, which was after a worksforme by another commenter, in comment 4.

Tbird 78.12 is not yet available through Fedora's Software app, which, Monday night, still listed 78.11.0 as the available version at both listings and what's installed per Help > About Thunderbird is 78.11.0 (64-bit). Ubuntu also had an update Monday night and on that platform Tbird is still at 78.11.0 (64-bit). I'd rather not update until the Software app provides the update.

I normally use Fedora as installed on my hard drive, including for problems I reported to this bug tracker. I own a live disc for special situations, such as to see what apps it has by default.

Uninstalling or removing in Fedora is as I described, according to some response I got when I asked, but I'm not sure what stays past removal of the app are dependencies no other program wants. It may just be other associated files, such as, for my word processor, the supplemental spell-checking dictionary. Tbird seems to have many associated files. Those may include profiles.

I think LibreOffice lets users install multiple versions in parallel (the word or name appimage comes to mind) and uninstall the extra versions without residual effects, but I'm not sure I can do that with Tbird or most other apps without risking problems after removals. And I don't look forward to testing most GUI apps from a CLI, even though the CLI is usually faster, since I'd have to learn the app's CLI commands and worry that a problem might occur with the GUI and not the CLI or vice versa.

Thanks.

Comment 8

[gene smith]

Ok, thanks for the update Nick.
I actually didn't notice that Thomas had already closed this as "works for me", oh well...

Comment 9

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

Verified wfm per reporter's comment 7. Thanks Gene for your efforts...