Closed Bug 234685 Opened 21 years ago Closed 21 years ago

Should support page list links ? (what kind of info do users need?)

Categories

(www.mozilla.org :: General, defect)

Product:
www.mozilla.org
Component:
General
Platform:
x86
Windows 2000
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
normal

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
VERIFIED FIXED

People

(Reporter: danielwang, Assigned: mjl+bmo)

Details

http://www.mozilla.org/webtools/bonsai/cvsview2.cgi?diff_mode=context&whitespace_mode=show&file=index.html&branch=&root=/cvsroot&subdir=mozilla-org/html/support&command=DIFF_FRAMESET&rev1=1.8&rev2=1.9 Support/ used to list a bunch of user pages right after phone assistance. Now, after the phone stuff are links to get-started guide, Release Notes, documentation. Then finally is a link to a page with links that used to be on support/ . Now, these user site links still on top of the user-site.html, but I was told that one of these site, after the change, has a drop of more than half of its previous traffic. Apparently users aren't bothering with extra clicking. So, the question is: what we need to put on the page? And can we set up redirects to track how people browse the sites?
I don't think setting up redirects is good, or necessary. we offer a choice of: Mozilla Getting Started Guide Release Notes documentation user sites If I'm looking for help with a browser, I don't think I'd go for "user sites". I dunno which site it was where the traffic dropped, but is it also listed on the documentation page? That page also has too many links and it's not clear what they are. What we really need is all the information that's in these various documents on mozilla.org and the user sites to be organised into some kind of structure, with one contents page and one search facility, so people didn't need to hop around a dozen different websites. We what actually have is something like a reference library which is organised by author rather than subject, which is hopeless. Anyway, for the moment I guess we should change the text, and have a bulleted list of a couple of good external sites instead of a link to mozilla.org/docs, which is a mess.
Hi, I second Michael's suggestion (bulleted list). While I am all for clean-looking sites, I noticed a sharp decline in visits to my Mozilla help site (http://mozilla.gunnars.net). Unfortunately, I don't have any detailed stats for my site, but what I can tell is that last month's transfer volume was 4200MB (which was partly due to the release of Mozilla 1.6. This month's forecast is 1500 MB. In addition, the number of questions I receive per email has declined, so I am noticing the change, i.e. that less (new) Mozilla end-users come to the site. It's probably impractical to list all sites, so I think someone (daniel?) should pick a few so that all of the apps (Suite, Firefox, Thunderbird) are represented. Another (small) suggestion: Changing the wording from 'user sites' to '(inofficial) help sites' might help.
Daniel: "remove unnecessary stuff" is not a good checkin comment. What was the logic behind this change? Gerv
-> Michael, who seems to have a better clue than I do > someone should pick a few so that all of the apps (Suite, Firefox, > Thunderbird) are represented. where? the support page or community page? > Chang[e] the wording from 'user sites' to '(inofficial) help sites' good idea :-) > "remove unnecessary stuff" is not a good checkin comment. What was the > logic behind this change? it meant: shorten the page because it has too much stuff (5 doc links, 8 forum links, 3 faq links), and merge these links to community/ I agree with Michael that we need to organize docs. But that is no trivial work (it has been tried at catalog/ :-( ). The user-site page as it is is already difficult to manage; there're a lot of pages, and you have to somehow determine what should be on top or emphasized. I don't think the page is hopeless. We need an updated, complete list of user pages first, and the user-sites page actually give us a starting point :-)
Assignee: endico → michaell+bmo
(In reply to comment #4) > -> Michael, who seems to have a better clue than I do > > > someone should pick a few so that all of the apps (Suite, Firefox, > > Thunderbird) are represented. > > where? the support page or community page? > On the support page itself. The link 'inofficial help sites' could then point to the other sites on the community page.
Any volunteers to pick the sites to be linked to directly? Just curious.
Since my sites are linked to from within the Firefox bookmarks toolbar, I'd find it strange if it wasn't linked to from the support/ page. Anyway, I'd say all the eight sites above the <hr/> on http://www.mozilla.org/community/user-sites.html should be listed on the support/ page. (Maybe not the last two-three?)
Gunnar, do you have time maintaining user-sites.html? Here's my suggestion: 1. Update your Links box, have it link to mozilla.org Mozilla 1.6 start page Mozillazine more help sites -> www.mozilla.org/community/user-sites.html other computer sites -> http://www.gunnars.net/links.html 2. Merge your Mozilla links with user-sites.html 3. Remove all target=_blank links. they are annoying :-( 4. Add your self to top of user-sites.html as the maintainer 5. On support page, change "other Mozilla user sites." to "the Unofficial Mozilla Help site" 6. Not a high priority, but maybe convert your site to HTML4 strict? I assume you have CVS access to the Web tree.
(In reply to comment #8) > Gunnar, do you have time maintaining user-sites.html? Yes, I do. I'll gladly maintain it. What about Mozilla's support page? Will we link directly to help sites? I still think that would be a good idea. > Here's my suggestion: > 1. Update your Links box, have it link to > mozilla.org > Mozilla 1.6 start page > Mozillazine > more help sites -> www.mozilla.org/community/user-sites.html > other computer sites -> http://www.gunnars.net/links.html I'll update it tonight. > 2. Merge your Mozilla links with user-sites.html OK > 3. Remove all target=_blank links. they are annoying :-( Sorry, I did not realize they were that annoying. I'll remove most of them. In some places in the FAQ (where it links to other sites explining things), I'll leave them in. I'll make sure to limit the use of 'target=blank', though ;-) > 4. Add your self to top of user-sites.html as the maintainer OK > 5. On support page, change "other Mozilla user sites." to > "the Unofficial Mozilla Help site" Will be done. > 6. Not a high priority, but maybe convert your site to HTML4 strict? Maybe in the future. For one thing, I am trying to preserve as much Netscape 4 / older browser compatibility as possible. In addition, it's a time question. I'll add to the content first (an additional mail tutorial is next). > > I assume you have CVS access to the Web tree. Not sure. I've never tried CVS. What is needed for me to use it?
> What about Mozilla's support page? Will we > link directly to help sites? Well it might be nice, and I'd be happy to make the changes. However, if we do that, we need to pick just one or two sites and recognise that most people will visit those. If we need a whole list (and I think that may be the case, because no one site covers everything), then I think it's better just to link to that list rather than having a bigger list on the main page. > Not sure. I've never tried CVS. What is needed for me to use it? you need a login (and password) for CVS - if you're not sure, then it's safe to assume you don't have access yet. http://www.mozilla.org/hacking/getting-cvs-write-access.html describes the procedure for getting access. You need to file an account request bug, you'll need someone to "vouch", but not superreviews. Mention that it's the web-tree you want access to in the summary of your bug.
Ok, I have applied the changes to mozilla.gunnars.net start page and applied for CVS access- If someone here could vouch for me, it would be great. It's bug 235591: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=235591 Thanks!
I just commented out some links in docs/end-user/, but the page is still dense. Michael, what do you think about this change? (remove doc link since it's on the left nav bar) Index: mozilla-org/html/support/index.html =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/mozilla-org/html/support/index.html,v retrieving revision 1.11 diff -u -r1.11 index.html --- mozilla-org/html/support/index.html 13 Feb 2004 02:58:49 -0000 1.11 +++ mozilla-org/html/support/index.html 25 Feb 2004 18:28:54 -0000 @@ -36,8 +36,8 @@ <a href="../docs/end-user/guide/get-started.html">Mozilla Getting Started Guide</a> and <a href="../releases/">Release Notes</a>.</p> - <p>For help on using Mozilla, read our <a href="../docs/end-user/">documentation</a> - or visit other Mozilla <a href="../community/user-sites.html">user sites</a>.</p> + <p>For additional help, visit the + <a href="http://mozilla.gunnars.net">Unofficial Mozilla Help site</a>.</p> <h2><a name="community">Community Support</a></h2> <p>Mozilla has a strong community of users and developers always willing to lend a hand.
I don't think links in nav bars can be a substitute for links in the main text - if someone gets to a page, the first place they'll look for information and links is in the page body. I guess most people looking at the support page will want usage help rather than installation help, so I'm not sure those links are essential - the getting started guide is linked from the docs page. However, Gunnar's site is mostly Mozilla, so I guess we should link to Firefox/Thunderbird help as well. I think something like this: == <h2><a name="doc">Documentation</a></h2> - - <p>Need more help with installing Mozilla? Read the - <a href="../docs/end-user/guide/get-started.html">Mozilla Getting Started Guide</a> - and <a href="../releases/">Release Notes</a>.</p> - - <p>For help on using Mozilla, read our <a href="../docs/end-user/">documentation</a> - or visit other Mozilla <a href="../community/user-sites.html">user sites</a>.</p> + <ul> + <li><a href="http://mozilla.gunnars.net/">Unofficial Mozilla Help Page</a>.</li> + <li><a href="http://texturizer.net/firefox/">Firefox Help</a></li> + <li><a href="http://texturizer.net/thunderbird/">Thunderbird Help</a></li> + <li><a href="../docs/end-user/">Other documentation</a></li> + </ul> <h2><a name="community">Community Support</a></h2> == and possibly we could have a link to the user-sites page as well, but Gunnar's page has that linked now, so maybe not.
done :-)
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 21 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
I don't really understand what was "fixed" in this bug? On the main support page, we now have this sentence: "For help on using Mozilla, read our <documentation> or visit other Mozilla <user sites>". What's the difference? The <documentation> link points to http://www.mozilla.org/docs/end-user/, which contains resources from both mozilla.org and user sites. Then we have the <user sites> link pointing to http://www.mozilla.org/community/user-sites.html, which contains a similar list of sites, with some sites listed on both. In my opinion, the distinction between "documentation" and "user sites" is not really defined. Also, not listing the help sites for the increasingly popular browser (Firefox) on the "documentation" page is a bad idea.
David - you're describing the page before the change that was just made. The mozilla website takes a while to show changes - check it again in an hour!
Ok, please ignore my previous comment. I was viewing the page before the page was updated. :) This is what I want to say instead: The main support page now contains a section called "Documentation", which lists 3 help sites and then a link to "Other documentation". If you look at the side panel and click the "Documentation" link there, you may not even notice the "Documentation" section on the page, so it's important that these 3 help sites are also listed on http://www.mozilla.org/docs/end-user/. However, that page only lists one of them, Gunnar's site. In other words, the "End user documentation" section on http://www.mozilla.org/docs/end-user/ should still list Firefox Help and Thunderbird Help if we really want to make sure the visitors don't miss them.
David - I agree. The distinction between "documentation" sites and "user" sites is a bit vague, but your sites are certainly documentation. I guess "documentation" should list sites which are going to be of help to the average user that just clicks on to them, and user-sites should include those and news/community sites as well.
Status: RESOLVED → VERIFIED
I was just about to add the Firefox/Thunderbird help sites to the documentation page, and I noticed that they were there until a short time ago when Daniel removed them! The other changes are ok, but I don't like that one. I know we have some duplication, but if we want to fix the duplication we need to get rid of entire pages, or rearrange the content so it is clearly divided and people don't end up on the "wrong" page. People are quite likely to end up on the documentation page without coming from the support page, so I think those really need to be in both places. Can I uncomment the texturizer.net sites from that page?
let's wait until firefox and tbird reach 1.0. We (doc people) are still focusing on seamonkey
I don't see what doc people has to do with the links on that page, but if you think so...
(In reply to comment #20) > let's wait until firefox and tbird reach 1.0. We (doc people) are still focusing > on seamonkey So you deliberately removed the links to the Firefox and Thunderbird sites from the "End user documentation" section, because you're focusing on seamonkey? Then why are we listing the sites on the support/ page in the first place? Besides, Firefox have already got more downloads than seamonkey 1.6: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=57071
> So you deliberately removed the links to the Firefox and Thunderbird sites > from the "End user documentation" section, because you're focusing on > seamonkey? As I said, let's wait until firefox/tbird reach 1.0. This is about the "focus" of page content. our doc index pages (docs/ and catalog/, which is going away) are pretty much useless because we try to put too much information in one place without any organization. I removed the Firefox and Thunderbird stuff so that, when somebody finds time to fix the problem, s/he is dealing with a minimum set of links. > Then why are we listing the sites on the support/ page in the first place? because that's where users look for Help on m.o. site. docs/end-user/ is linked from nowhere except support/, sitemap, and maybe other obsecure place, so I find it unnecessary to duplicate content on support page. > Besides, Firefox have already got more downloads than seamonkey 1.6: > http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=57071 Which doesn't explain why nobody is doing user doc since Mozilla 1.0 . IMO, doing something about it (and making mistakes) is better than sitting idle and talk about what to do about it.
> As I said, let's wait until firefox/tbird reach 1.0. The support pages on mozilla.org need to support all of our products in wide use - and that includes Firefox and Thunderbird, even pre-1.0. Gerv
Product: mozilla.org → Websites
Component: www.mozilla.org → General
Product: Websites → www.mozilla.org
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