Help -> For Netscape 7.x / Mozilla 1.x Users

RESOLVED WONTFIX

Status

Firefox Graveyard
Help Documentation
--
enhancement
RESOLVED WONTFIX
13 years ago
2 years ago

People

(Reporter: Prognathous, Assigned: Prognathous)

Tracking

Details

Attachments

(1 attachment, 2 obsolete attachments)

8.37 KB, text/html
Details
(Assignee)

Description

13 years ago
Similar to Bug 214102 ("Help -> For Internet Explorer Users"), Firefox should
have an entry for Seamonkey users who consider switching. This document should
focus on two subjects:

1. UI differences (keyboard shortcuts, modified menus, missing/hidden prefs, etc...)
2. Missing functions (with links to extensions or supplementary apps that
provide this functionality)

Here's a short (and partial) list of differences that effect the typical
Seamonkey switcher: 

Autocomplete Best Match As You Type: browser.urlbar.autoFill=true
Find-as-you-type: accessibility.typeaheadfind=true
Find-as-you-type for Links-only: accessibility.typeaheadfind.linksonly=true
Tabbed-browsing/Add tabs: browser.tabs.loadFolderAndReplace=false

Open URL in a new tab (Ctrl+Tab): Alt+Tab
Edit/Preferences: Tools/Options (in Windows)
Show/Hide sidebar (F9): Ctrl+B for Bookmarks sidebar, Ctrl+H for History
sidebar, Ctrl+K for Web Search
Show/Hide toolbars: Right click toolbar -> Uncheck name
File/Quit: Removed (Firefox/Quit is kept in OS X)

Chatzilla: http://www.hacksrus.com/~ginda/chatzilla/
Mail&News: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/
Composer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/

Classic and Modern themes: Links to similarly-looking themes

New tab button on the tab-bar: http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/clav/#tbx
Switching between language packs: http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/switch-locales

Opening the Profile Manager: firefox.exe -p
Prompt before saving downloads: Tools -> Options -> Downloads -> Ask me...

Save/Fill-in form info: Partially replaced by form in-line autocomplete.

Prog.
(Assignee)

Comment 1

13 years ago
The alternative to Composer is of course Nvu (http://www.nvu.com/) and not TB.

Prog.
Assignee: firefox → jwalden+fxhelp
Component: General → Help Documentation
QA Contact: firefox.general → firefox.help-documentation

Comment 2

13 years ago
Are you sure we need this? There are millions of IE converts, but there are
*slightly* less converts from Mozilla/NS. And I somehow expect them to be able
to find their way around without looking into Help.

But since you've written such a detailed bug report, maybe you'd like to write a
short doc on it? We have a chronic shortage of Help contributors. Help for IE
users is here:
http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/browser/components/help/locale/en-US/forieusers.xhtml

> Open URL in a new tab (Ctrl+Tab): Alt+Tab
You mean Ctrl+Click? That works in Firefox as well, except for the location and
search bar, where it's Alt+Click.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
(Assignee)

Comment 3

13 years ago
(In reply to comment #2)
> Are you sure we need this? 

As someone who finds the out-of-the-box Firefox experience to be less than
stellar (compared to my well tweaked Seamonkey), I'm definite this is needed.

Some features that are very accessible in Seamonkey require going through hoops
(hidden prefs, third party extensions) in Firefox. Not everyone is a Mozilla
enthusiast with time to mine the web for solutions. A single page with answers
to all the common question and issues should be sufficient.

> There are millions of IE converts, but there are
> *slightly* less converts from Mozilla/NS. And I somehow expect them to be able
> to find their way around without looking into Help.

I'm sure the percentage of Seamonkey users considering to switch to Firefox is
much higher than the percentage of IE users who face the same decision.

> But since you've written such a detailed bug report, maybe you'd like to write
> a short doc on it? We have a chronic shortage of Help contributors.

I'm far from a technical writer and English is not my mother tongue, but I'll be
happy to write a raw draft that could serve as the base for this document.

> > Open URL in a new tab (Ctrl+Tab): Alt+Tab

To clarify, I was referring to opening a new tab from the location bar.

Prog.
> New tab button on the tab-bar: http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/clav/#tbx

I have never understood why not to use the noraml new tab button (see cust dialog)
You know, this is much more relevant for netscape.
Summary: Help -> For Mozilla 1.x Users → Help -> For Netscape 7.x / Mozilla 1.x Users
I'm almost entirely against this for the reasons Steffen mentioned.

Firefox Help also can't recommend specific extensions for what essentially boils
down to one reason -- we don't control the extension.  Thus, we can't ensure
it'll always be maintained, we can't ensure it'll always be up-to-date when new
versions of Firefox are released (when all non-updated extensions are disabled),
we can't ensure that the UI for the feature isn't implemented poorly, we can't
ensure it will never have significant bugs, and we can't do anything if it's
determined that the extension has security problems but the maintainers haven't
gotten around to fixing it.  There are also other reasons which will be left as
an exercise for the reader.

Fixing this would require adding a new column to the Keyboard Shortcuts page for
Netscape/Seamonkey.  If shortcuts differ between Netscape and Seamonkey, then we
would need to add a column for each.  This quickly becomes bloat.

That said, notice that I used the word "almost".  If you write a patch for this
and I believe that it is effective, does not detract from the overall Help
experience, and has a mostly-useless-bloat-to-generally-useful-information ratio
that's extremely low, then I might consider adding it.  Even if the ratio of
Seamonkey users considering switching to the number of IE users considering
switching is much greater than 1 (which I believe may not be the case -- a good
number of Seamonkey users have already switched, and there never were that many
Seamonkey users -- look at the numbers of Seamonkey and Firefox downloads quoted
for the day of each's 1.0 release), the usage gain from this is still
infinitesimally small, while the usage *loss* due to a slightly-increased
download size could conceivably be higher.

Note also that you'll have a better chance of this getting accepted if you do
this *only* for Netscape 7.x, because the number of Netscape 7.x users
considering a switch is almost certainly larger than the number of Seamonkey
users considering a switch, and the Seamonkey docs would be more easily
considered bloat.  You may not like that, but it's reality.  It's your choice,
tho -- write the proposed docs well enough and you could still get both added.

So, there you have it -- it's your baby now, and you're going to have to work to
do this sufficiently for it to be allowed entrance to Help.  Reassigning...
Assignee: jwalden+fxhelp → prognathous
(Assignee)

Comment 7

13 years ago
Created attachment 166713 [details]
First draft

Netscape 7.x and Mozilla 1.x are extremely similar. That's really two birds in
one shot.

Jeff, the issues you raised regarding the extensions are all very true, but
this can be handled quite easily by a footnote disclaimer (we have one, don't
we?)

Prog.
(Assignee)

Comment 8

13 years ago
Created attachment 166716 [details]
Second draft

Added the Link Toolbar extension - the current incarnation of Seamonkey's Site
Navigation Bar.
Attachment #166713 - Attachment is obsolete: true

Comment 9

13 years ago
That's a pretty large table. Maybe we can remove some obvious items, like how to
quit Firefox.
Firefox does have UI for Find As You Type. It's in
Options->Advanced->Accessibility: "Begin finding when you begin typing".
Comment on attachment 166716 [details]
Second draft


><DIV><STRONG>Note:</STRONG> This information applies to Mozilla Firefox
>for Windows and Mac OS.</DIV>

Is this different from any other help doc?

>      <TD>File -&gt; Exit in Windows; Firefox -&gt; Quit in Mac OS X<BR/>
>      </TD>

Instead, use <span class="noMac">File -&gt; Exit</span> and <span
class="mac"><strong>Firefox</strong> -&gt Quit Firefox</span>. Thinking more,
the whole line should be hidden on Mac :)

>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Edit -&gt; Preferences<BR/>
>      </TD>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Tools -&gt; Options (in
>Windows); Firefox -&gt; Preferences (in OS X)<BR/>
>      </TD>

^^
>    </TR>
>    <TR>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Classic and Modern themes<BR/>
>      </TD>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Replaced by Winstripe and
>Pinstripe themes for Windows and OS X, respectively. <A href="https://update.mozilla.org/themes/moreinfo.php?application=firefox&amp;id=266&amp;vid=1105">Perennial</A>
>and <A href="https://update.mozilla.org/themes/moreinfo.php?id=103&amp;vid=962">GrayModern</A>
>are two themes that resemble the look of Mozilla 1.x<BR/>

hmm, Do we use Pinstripe and Winstripe names anywhere else (i mean, in the UI)

>      </TD>
>    </TR>
>    <TR>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Autocomplete Best Match As You
>Type<BR/>
>      </TD>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">In <A href="http://www.mozillazine.org/misc/about:config/">about:config</A>,

I _think_ this should be target="_blank"


>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Find As You Type<BR/>
>      </TD>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Change <SPAN style="font-style: italic;">accessibility.typeaheadfind</SPAN> to<SPAN style="font-style: italic;"> true</SPAN><BR/>

Tools->Options->Advanced?

>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">New Tab button on the tab-bar<BR/>
>      </TD>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Can be configured using the <A href="http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/clav/#tbx">Toolbar Enhancements</A>
>extension<BR/>
>      </TD>
>    </TR>

Why not point the default one (Cutstomize Toolbars).

><H2 id="firebirds_features">Firefox's Features not available in Mozilla
>1.x and Netscape 7.x<BR/>

"Toolbar(s) customization"

Comment 11

13 years ago
Sidebar is replaced by Web panels. Now, Web panels are saved as bookmarks, and
any web page can be opened in the sidebar.

Things that should be taken out of the table:
Quit application, Find As You Type, Classic and Modern themes

> "Replaced by a separate mail client - Thunderbird"
I don't like "Replaced"
> Composer
we should <-- comment --> this out. We don't want to recommand 0.5 app
> (right-click toolbar -> Customize...)
(Ctrl-click on MacOS X)

Other important changes:
* master password enforced - need info on how to use it or disable password saving
* "new tab" not visible by default. Should link to toolbar customization page
first, then the extension (which should be an update.mozilla.org url)

> About Your Mozilla Bookmarks and Settings
I believe Firefox import passwords and saved form info too
(In reply to comment #11)
> Sidebar is replaced by Web panels.

It's still called sidebar everywhere.


> Things that should be taken out of the table:
> Quit application, Find As You Type, Classic and Modern themes

Why? (FAYT behaves really different in FF; winstripe isn't a real answer to
Modern theme users)
(Assignee)

Comment 13

13 years ago
Created attachment 166740 [details]
Draft #3

(In reply to Asaf Romano, comment #4)
> I have never understood why not to use the normal new tab button (see cust
dialog)

See Bug 186865 and its many dupes.

(In reply to Steffen Wilberg, comment #9)
> That's a pretty large table. Maybe we can remove some obvious items, like how

> to quit Firefox.

Removed.

> Firefox does have UI for Find As You Type. It's in
> Options->Advanced->Accessibility: "Begin finding when you begin typing".

Added. I also kept the previous explanation as an alternative method. The
latter is quicker to find when one is already filtering the about:config to
make other changes (such the linksonly mode).

(In reply to Asaf Romano, comment #10)
> (From update of attachment 166716 [details])
> 
> ><DIV><STRONG>Note:</STRONG> This information applies to Mozilla Firefox
> >for Windows and Mac OS.</DIV>
> 
> Is this different from any other help doc?

This note was left from the "For Internet Explorer Users" document which was
intended for Windows and Mac users only (HP-UX and Solaris users were dismissed
I guess...). Anyway, I removed it from the new draft.

As for the code changes, I'll leave that to after the content (currently in
HTML form) is finalized.

> hmm, Do we use Pinstripe and Winstripe names anywhere else (i mean, in the
UI)

Good catch. Removed from the text.

> Why not point the default one (Customize Toolbars).

Added that as well.

> "Toolbar(s) customization"

Added.

(In reply to Daniel Wang, comment #11)
> Sidebar is replaced by Web panels. Now, Web panels are saved as bookmarks,
and
> any web page can be opened in the sidebar.

Added, though I'm not sure about the "Web panels" terminology.

> Things that should be taken out of the table:
> Quit application, Find As You Type, Classic and Modern themes

I removed the Quit note and added one about the GUI method for enabling FAYT
(the fact that this killer-feature is not on by default is beyond me). As for
the themes, Modern is still unmatched by Win/Pinstripe for tab design. See Bug
206175. Classic is convenient for those who use old computers with limited
displays.

> > "Replaced by a separate mail client - Thunderbird"
> I don't like "Replaced"

How about "A separate mail client is now provided - Thunderbird"?

> > Composer
> we should <-- comment --> this out.

In my experience, Nvu is as stable and reliable as Composer (it's actually
Composer 2.0), but I modified the text to include the beta status of this
product. BTW, this is where a pointer to a disclaimer would fit nicely.

> We don't want to recommend 0.5 app

Do we want users to switch to another product for lack of an HTML editor? Do we
want them to stick with Seamonkey until Nvu reaches v1.0?

> (Ctrl-click on MacOS X)

Noted for after the content is finalized.

> Other important changes:
> * master password enforced - need info on how to use it or disable password
saving

I don't see any difference from how Seamonkey handles passwords and the master
password. Please elaborate.

> * "new tab" not visible by default. Should link to toolbar customization page

> first, then the extension 

Done.

> ...(which should be an update.mozilla.org url)

Clav's Firefox extensions are hosted by mozdev.org, not u.m.o.

> > About Your Mozilla Bookmarks and Settings
> I believe Firefox import passwords and saved form info too

Added form passwords to this section. However, the UI doesn't hint that form
info is imported as well.

Prog.
(Assignee)

Updated

13 years ago
Attachment #166716 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Comment on attachment 166740 [details]
Draft #3


><H1>For Mozilla 1.x and Netscape 7.x Users</H1>

Please consider changing this (everywhere) to "Mozilla Suite and Netscape 7
users", these are the offical names atm
(http://www.mozilla.org/products/mozilla1.x/ and netscpae splash screen).

>      </TD>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">A separate mail
>client is now provided - <A href="http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/">Thunderbird</A><BR/>

standalone, maybe.


>    <TR class="noMac">

remove noMac (by the way, the final format is also html, so be ready :) ).

>      <TD>Sidebar (F9)<BR/>
>      </TD>
>      <TD><SPAN class="win">Bookmarks sidebar (Ctrl+B)<BR/>
>History sidebar (Ctrl+H)<BR/>
>Web Search (Ctrl+K)<BR/>

IMHO, reffering to menu items is better terminology (i.e. Bookmarks sidebar
(View -> Sidebar -> Bookmarks), keyboard geeks will see the bindidng in the
menu.

>    <TR class="noMac">

...

>      <TD>Minimize toolbars</TD>

Does seamonkey use "Collapse" or "Minimize"?

>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Classic and Modern themes<BR/>
>      </TD>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Replaced by a new default theme.

s/a new default theme/new default themes

>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">New Tab button<BR/>
>      </TD>
>      <TD style="vertical-align: top;">Can be added using the Customize Toolbar dialog. To place this button on the tab-bar, use the <A href="http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/clav/#tbx">Toolbar Enhancements</A>
>extension<BR/>
>      </TD>

We just can't link from help docs to a site (for xpi installation) which isn't
even in our whitelist. Maybe he can upload his extension to u.m.o?

Comment 15

13 years ago
I'm definetely against this and if Jeff is against this than that means it
probably isn't going to be checked in :). What about Help for Opera users? This
is just additional menu bloat. I would really doubt that the amount of people
going from Mozilla 1.0 to Firefox would even compare to the amount of users
going from IE to Firefox.
After more thought, WONTFIX-ing.  If Ben worries over the bloat introduced by
copying images from the browser toolbar into a Help toolbar (he did), then this
would almost certainly be bad for the same reasons.  Additionally, the last
posted draft still refers the reader to extensions, which is something that
*will* *not* *be* *done* for reasons enumerated earlier (no control, security,
etc.).

This is certainly valid for the mozilla.org website in its documentation,
however.  Indeed, it's expected that the built-in Help will be inadequate for
power users who might want to tweak hidden settings or do things outside the UI.
 File a new bug for mozilla.org and move the work on this over to there.  I'd
suggest talking to David Tenser to get an idea of exactly where it should go.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Last Resolved: 13 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
Product: Firefox → Firefox Graveyard
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