277408 - Default download and startup settings are different after the first account (second, third,...) - check for new messages at startup and automatically download new messages are not enabled

Status: NEW

(Thunderbird :: Account Manager, defect)

Description

[Markus Faßbender]

When I create my first pop-account with the account-manager than the following
server-settings are made by the manager:

X = check for new messages at startup
X = check for new messages after 10 minutes
X = automatically download new messages

Thats good and everything works. 

But when I create my second account than the following server-settings are done
by the manager:

- = check for new messages at startup
X = check for new messages after 10 minutes
- = automatically download new messages

No check for new messages at startup and no automatically download as expected
from the previous account.

Now people get every 10 minutes a message that new mail has arrive, but they
don't see them in tb, because the preference to download them isn't set.

Expected result for ALL new pop-accounts:

X = check for new messages at startup
X = check for new messages after 10 minutes
X = automatically download new messages

Comment 1

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

I can confirm this behaviour in actual nightly trunk builds (Thunderbird 1.0+
build 20050620).

This is confusing users and should be fixed for Thunderbird 1.1

Comment 2

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

Still the same behaviour in Thunderbird 1.5 rc2 candidates.

Comment 3

[Lee_Dailey]

howdy y'all,

[1] my tb info ...
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051201 Thunderbird/1.5 - Build ID: 2005120115

[2] this behavior seems as designed & VERY desirable.
it's in NOT good to have a data loss configuration as the default. when setting up an account the default settings - the ones that may run before you have a chance to thoroughly review the config - _should_ be very conservative.

this behavior is - in my opinion - NOT a bug.
changing this behavior is - again in my opinion - NOT a reasonable rfe.

take care,
lee

Comment 4

[Markus Faßbender]

(In reply to comment #3)
> [2] this behavior seems as designed & VERY desirable.
> it's in NOT good to have a data loss configuration as the default. when setting
> up an account the default settings - the ones that may run before you have a
> chance to thoroughly review the config - _should_ be very conservative.
> 
> this behavior is - in my opinion - NOT a bug.
> changing this behavior is - again in my opinion - NOT a reasonable rfe.

But when I create a new account than I want that TB automatically download the messages like the first account. The common user don't understand the different behavior of the second account. 

And it has nothing to do with data loss. There is another bug that says that TB shouldn't delete the messages on the server, but this has nothing to do with this bug. 

We must have a configuration where a default user must not change the settings if he configure a new account.

Comment 5

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

We should be CONSISTENT for the first an all other accounts, irrespective of the decision for one of the options.

Comment 6

[David :Bienvenu]

with respect, default settings are default settings - defining an account, or changing an existing account, doesn't change default settings and I don't think it should...

Comment 7

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

David it seems, you don't understand!

Thunderbird creates DIFFERENT account settings. And this is a real bug.

Comment 8

[David :Bienvenu]

ah, so I had it backwards? Does this bug happen if you create a new account, shut down, and then restart and create a second account?

Comment 9

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

The bug occurs in both scenarios:

1) Start Thunderbird 1.5, create first POP account, create second POP account

2) Start Thunderbird 1.5, create first POP account, close Thunderbird, start again Thunderbird and create second POP account

No difference, when the option "Download now..." in the last wizard window is disabled.

Comment 10

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

In AccountWizard.js is the following function related to our problem:

-----------------------
function EnableCheckMailAtStartUpIfNeeded(newAccount)
{
    // Check if default account exists and if that account is alllowed to be
    // a default account. If no such account, make this one as the default account 
    // and turn on the new mail check at startup for the current account   
    if (!(gDefaultAccount && gDefaultAccount.incomingServer.canBeDefaultServer)) { 
        am.defaultAccount = newAccount;
        newAccount.incomingServer.loginAtStartUp = true;
        newAccount.incomingServer.downloadOnBiff = true;
    }
}
-----------------------

Comment 11

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

Attachment: AccountWizard - download mails by default

Comment 12

[David :Bienvenu]

So, as I understand it, by default, we set up the first default account to automatically download at startup, because that's what we figure the user wants. For other accounts, not the primary, default accounts, we default to not downloading at startup. Is that a fair description of the current behaviour? And your change makes it so all account are configured to download at startup?

Comment 13

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

(In reply to comment #12)
> So, as I understand it, by default, we set up the first default account to
> automatically download at startup, because that's what we figure the user
> wants. For other accounts, not the primary, default accounts, we default to not
> downloading at startup. Is that a fair description of the current behaviour?
> And your change makes it so all account are configured to download at startup?
> 

Correct

Maybe we should open an additional bug and create a patch to give users the option (in account wizard) to leave messages on server? This could be combined with bug 170520.

Comment 14

[David :Bienvenu]

Comment on attachment 219193 [details] [diff] [review]
AccountWizard - download mails by default

I think there was a rationale for doing what we did before, but I'm not opposed to changing this.

Comment 15

[Lee_Dailey]

howdy y'all,

my problem with what you seem to be aiming at is ...

the default config for things the user can't see should be such that data loss _cannot_ occur.

it seems the "leave messages on server" [lmos] can't be seen while making a new account. so, IF "automatically download new messages" [adnm] is ON, and lmos is ON, you can lose data by dl-ing the msgs when you might not have intended to do so.

i can see setting up a 2nd or 3rd account, having tbird dl all the msgs on the new server and having a heart attack as my horde of msgs that i have been keeping on the server for _years_ are yanked off the server without any HINT to me that the dang things were gonna get REMOVED from the server.

given the changes made to a msg while being dl'd, this is data loss to me.

take care,
lee

Comment 16

[David :Bienvenu]

Lee, I buy that argument, but I think we need to make the wizard have the option to leave messages on server.

Comment 17

[Lee_Dailey]

(In reply to comment #16)
> Lee, I buy that argument, but I think we need to make the wizard have the
> option to leave messages on server.
> 

howdy david,

[*sigh ...*] i see your point. i just have done SO MUCH tech support for clients who manage to shoot themselves right exactly in the most painful possible place. it seems to me you are looking at this from the viewpoint of a more-or-less-aware-of-the-consequences person while _i_ am looking at it from the "omg! my mail is all gone!" tech support call viewpoint.

IF that setting is clearly visible, then it's "barely ok" in my very opinionated opinion. 

however, it's easier to go back and remove the msgs than it is to put them back with all the previous context they had before they got removed from the server. that's why i would prefer to see the "leave msgs on server" setting ON whenever a new account is made. regardless of the previous account's setting.

i'm not coding this ... [*grin*] .. so i won't go off on a rant if y'all decide my point is inadequately convincing on this.

take care,
lee

Comment 18

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

1. If settings are different (and they are different), it is not obvious
2. The setting to leave messages on server is NOT the setting we are changing here
3. Leaving messages on server is not the save solution for all users. 50 % are frustrated because of not leaving them on server, the other 50 % do not know that new messages will be returned to sender, if there is no more space in the mailbox on the server.

The whole account wizard should be updated (Bug 170520 different SMTP settings, leave messages on server by option).

Comment 19

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

Scott/David, could you check the patch in?

Comment 20

[Alex Ihrig [:Thunderbird_Mail_DE]]

This Bug is still alive in Thunderbird 3.0a2pre nightlies. As far as I can see in this discussion no one told us why we have different default settings between the first and all further accounts? IMHO it's still not obvious to users. They are confused because of Thunderbirds message about new e-mail, but there are no new mails in inbox (they are not downloaded because of the different default settings...).

Comment 21

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Joe, is comment 0 still valid?

Comment 22

[Joe Sabash [:JoeS1]]

Yes, the last time I set up a new account.
Actually, I think there is no reason to assume the multiple pop accounts will be the same
Especially if you are accessing the same account from multiple pc's
Ideally I think we should end up in server settings at the end of account creation.

Comment 23

[:aceman]

I think we could leave the defaults as they are (the second account gets different settings), but they could be exposed as checkboxes in the account wizard so that the user can change them.
If they are hidden and the user must go into the account manager (which many users won't do) so find out the messages are not set to be downloaded, than that is a problem.

Comment 24

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

> Especially if you are accessing the same account from multiple pc's

True, but this shouldn't be normal for most users.  But aceman's suggestion covers both items. 

Or, should we not prompt for additional settings even on the first account?

Comment 25

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Makes no sense to me that these should be different from the first account.
Thomas, what do you think?

Comment 26

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

(In reply to Wayne Mery (:wsmwk) from comment #25)

Makes no sense to me that these should be different from the first account.
Thomas, what do you think?

+1. I don't see any reason why setting up subsequent POP accounts should use different defaults from setting up the first one.
I'm all in favor of exposing and explaining the consequences of "Leave messages on server..." (or not) at account setup time (there's a bug for that).