Closed Bug 300198 Opened 19 years ago Closed 18 years ago

Set loadFolderAndReplace default to "false"

Categories

(Firefox :: Bookmarks & History, defect)

Product:
Firefox
Component:
Bookmarks & History
Platform:
x86
Windows XP
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
normal

Tracking

()

Status:
RESOLVED WONTFIX

People

(Reporter: u81239, Unassigned)

References

Details

(Keywords: dataloss, Whiteboard: uiHitList)

Attachments

(1 file)

Patch to invert the current default behavior
715 bytes, patch
Details | Diff | Splinter Review 
User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; nl; rv:1.8b2) Gecko/20050706 Firefox/1.0+
Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; nl; rv:1.8b2) Gecko/20050706 Firefox/1.0+

As described in bug 216346, there is a preference
"browser.tabs.loadFolderAndReplace" which controls whether a middle-click on a
bookmark folder will replace the current tabs, or create new tabs.

The resolution of that bug was INVALID, with the rationale "there is a pref
available, so the bug as it stands is invalid". I do not agree that resolution
is in the spirit of the original issue, but alas. I have filed this bug to
address not the ability, but the default behavior of Firefox.

Due to the destructive nature of the default behavior, the high number of
duplicates in the aforementioned bug, and the other rationale (in particular in
my comment no. 33 [1]), I believe that the default for this preference should be
set to ‘false’, causing bookmark folders to open in new tabs instead.

This will impact few users negatively, and many positively, in particular your
average grandfather, but also regular users like me who have good motoristic
mouse control skills but still run into this issue multiple times. For the
people who depend on the current behavior, I do not think the new behavior would
be particularly bothersome, and if they feel it is, they can be considered
‘power users’ and be told to change this preference accordingly.


~Grauw

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=216346#c33

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
A patch which applies the change.
Supporting arguments and a summary of this issue's history can be found in bug
259865 comment #2.

We've had the debate over and over and over again, and we're not changing the
default behaviour.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 19 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
I do not see how the current behavior can in any way be desirable.

Show me one user who actually uses middle-clicking on bookmark folders to open
them in all tabs, and I will show you ten users whose tabs get clobbered because
they accidentally middle-clicked on a bookmark instead of a tab.

I am quite disappointed by this decision.


~Grauw
This default behaviour results in an inconsistent UI, which is very bad. If I
middle-click a single bookmark, it open in a new window. If I middle-click a
bookmark folder, it replaces existing ones? It makes no sense.

It has been said that this subject has been discussed numerous time. Can someone
tell me where to find that discussion, so I can read it?
Comment 2 references another comment which points to previous bugs where
discussion about this has taken place, I guess that is what mconnor refers to.

It seems though that those bugs were pre-Firefox, so I wonder if this has been
carefully reconsidered for Firefox specifically, given the differences in UI
philosophy. I for one don’t think the decision fits in.


~Geauw
Who is in charge of the UI decisions anyway? For Firefox 1.0 Ben had the
explicit lead, but is that still the case? Has he looked at this issue?
Depends on: 243740
Keywords: dataloss
*** Bug 308103 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
I posted bug Bug 308103 which has been marked a dup of this bug. I want to point
out one specific item from my comments on that bug. That is FF 1.0x did not
exibit the replacement behavior that is claimed to be the default in this
thread, where FF1.5B1 does.

I used that "feature" to add tabs from my bookmarks (Using Open in Tabs) ALL THE
TIME so I know this behavior changed. I'll admit I could be mistaken and the
pref was exposed by the "tab brower enhancement" and I changed it. In that case
please move that pref into the UI pronto.

It may be the default but that does not make it a good default. 
*** Bug 310005 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
One of the central tenants of user interface design is "don't do anything
destructive with out asking first."  This breaks that rule.  If you put up a
dialog that says something like "Replace existing tabs in this window?" that
would be fine.  But silently doing it, and THROWING AWAY "extra" tabs is wrong
and destructive.
It's very disappointing to see how this "bug" has been handled by the devs. I've waded through all of the related bug reports and nowhere can I find a solid attempt to justify this behaviour in FF. 

"We've had the debate over and over and over again"

Where's the debate? It's mostly been "We suggest this because....[implications and solutions described]", followed by a "Nope. Don't like. Won't fix."

Interface consistency is a tough issue in large open source projects, and I would suggest that the team take this opportunity to fix a large consistency issue with a small effort.

All the best
Gunnar
I completely agree with Gunnar. There has been no "debate" here as far as I can see -- only "we like it so it stays as-is." I have seen no rational argument at all as to why this *should* be the correct behavior; on the other hand, as I said in my comment (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=216346#c29) in that thread, while this may well be accessible via an obsure pref that the vast majority of users never see, it categorically violates an easily-available pref that everyday users *do* use ("Open links from other apps in: a new tab in the most recent window").

Please, please reconsider marking this as WONTFIX. If for no other reason, just look at the number of dupes filed against the earlier bug and this one. It seems like there would be a lot of reward for relatively little risk to fix this...

/HJ
To all those advocating in this bug: please notice that bug 175124 was marked "blocking-aviary2", meaning it will get fixed for Firefox 2.0.
Bug 175124 is an elegant solution to this problem, which should make everybody (or at least most people) happy.
(In reply to comment #3)
> We've had the debate over and over and over again, and we're not changing the
> default behaviour.

hi mike, i know this is probably a pain for you having to say the same thing over and over again in multiple bug threads, but when you do could you please add a link to one such debate (perhaps your favourite one where you feel the devs point of view is best explained).  

and if this has been opened for discussion in a forum, could somebody start putting in a link to all these bug reports?  

i'm a pretty average user, and just clicked on "Open in Tabs" for the first time, only to find my 8 previous tabs dissappearing to be replaced by the two tabs in my folder.  it was a shock: certainly not what i was expecting, and counter-intuitive.  it upset me enough to go looking for a solution (i've since changed my pref in about:config).  i think if the majority of your users find the current default counter-intuitive then there is a strong argument for changing the current default.  so, the question is: does the majority of firefox's users find the current default counter-intuitive?  i believe so, but maybe there could be a poll set up to test this. 
(In reply to comment #14)
> To all those advocating in this bug: please notice that bug 175124 was marked
> "blocking-aviary2", meaning it will get fixed for Firefox 2.0.
> Bug 175124 is an elegant solution to this problem, which should make everybody
> (or at least most people) happy.
> 

Bug 175214 is no longer blocking Firefox 2, so it looks like this egregious data loss (or state loss) bug will remain unfixed.


undo close tab fixes the dataloss portion of this, fwiw
(In reply to comment #17)
> undo close tab fixes the dataloss portion of this, fwiw

Undo Close Tab will most probably never be complete (as in "it restores the position your Flash movie was playing at") and furthermore it really doesn't save more than 10 tabs by default - I wouldn't call that "fixing the dataloss portion of this" at all.
(In reply to comment #17)
> undo close tab fixes the dataloss portion of this, fwiw

As implemented in Firefox 2RC1 it does not fix the dataloss since it's unable to restore (among other things) text entered in textfields.
Summary: Set loadFolderAndReplace default to ‘false’ → Set loadFolderAndReplace default to �false�
Could anyone please point us to a place where the debate regarding this behavior was going on? I vote against the current default (remove/reuse existing tabs deliberately) too. As a Firefox user (even as an advanced user) I see no rationale in such decision.
Status: RESOLVED → VERIFIED
Status: VERIFIED → REOPENED
Resolution: WONTFIX → ---
The project lead for Firefox  wontfixed this bug a year and a half a go. Reopening the bug just because you don't agree with his decision is not acceptable.

mconnor@mozilla.com  	2005-07-09 14:03:27 PST  	Status  	NEW  	RESOLVED
Resolution 		WONTFIX
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Closed: 19 years ago → 18 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
So, do we now create a petition like for Microsoft, or what?
Summary: Set loadFolderAndReplace default to �false� → Set loadFolderAndReplace default to ‘false’
Discussion about decisions should take place on the mozilla newsgroups. Specifically  news://news.mozilla.org/dev.apps.firefox also reachable as a mailing list https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox . Check the archives for previous discussion http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.firefox
Summary: Set loadFolderAndReplace default to ‘false’ → Set loadFolderAndReplace default to "false"
(In reply to comment #23)
> Discussion about decisions should take place on the mozilla newsgroups.
> Specifically  news://news.mozilla.org/dev.apps.firefox also reachable as a
> mailing list https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox . Check the
> archives for previous discussion
> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.firefox 

Kevin,

Looking at the OLD thread pointed by tylernt in his new thread above, for me it seems like the project lead for Firefox simply ignores any such requests. That old conversation/thread hasn't resulted in any agreement, it simply died, and that's all, even though the last three posts in that thread suggest to revert/change current default, and explain what is wrong with it reasonably.
This was wontfixed because it was decided that the solution proposed here was not the right one. It looks like bug 175124 was the accepted fix. If you want to push this issue, it would be more contructive to get some action and votes on it rather than this.
It appears that 175124 describes the current behavior, not the fix: "using the existing tabs whenever possible, and appending additional tabs if the number of tabs in the groupmark is greater than the number of open tabs". That's exactly what we DON'T want.
you're right, the difference between the two isn't exactly clear. In any case, there is (was?) a plan for fixing it that was supposed to go into that bug. You'll get farther by getting action on that bug to find out what exactly the plan is, then revisit anything that one doesn't cover afterwards.
Whiteboard: uiHitList
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