Closed Bug 366829 Opened 18 years ago Closed 16 years ago

[et] Estonian: Firefox

Categories

(Mozilla Localizations :: Registration & Management, defect)

Product:
Mozilla Localizations
Component:
Registration & Management
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
normal

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED FIXED

People

(Reporter: sander, Unassigned)

References

Details

Attachments

(1 file)

estonian (et) source
163.26 KB, application/x-bzip
Pike
: review+
Details 
User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; et-EE; rv:1.8.1.1) Gecko/20061208 Firefox/2.0.0.1
Build Identifier: 

Name: Sander Lepik
Translation homepage: http://firefox.pingviin.org
contact address: sander@struktuur.ee
ll-NN: et-EE

i hope it's enough to start :)

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1.
2.
3.
Ah, there's the Sander I was looking for ;-).

There's another registration bug 319728, but there hasn't been a whole lot of progress there.

Take a look at http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Create_a_new_localization, too.

We're currently still on hold for taking new locales, but that shouldn't keep you from continuing to work on your localization for now. Once we're back to speed on our side, we'll need to see a source localization for review. I'd like to get numbers on translation coverage, too, if you're having the translate toolkit fill in missing strings from en-US.
Summary: request to create project to translate firefox → Firefox localization in Estonian (et-EE)
Sander, Matthias, Allan, we're still (duh) finding our ways through what we really want from new localization teams, and how to word that.

Anyway, I'm chiming in here already just to get the three of you connected. A good thing to do initially is to talk about tools that you would like to use, as different tools don't always blend well.

Another thing is to add yourself to the wiki and get some contact information exposed there. The right page to create would be http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Teams:et, you can take the pages from the Armenian team as an example, http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Teams:hy-AM, as they got the most out of what you can do on the wiki.

I'm dropping the -EE country code part here, we're trying to go for simple language codes if possible. There aren't that many different regions where Estonian is spoken, I guess? With recognizable linguistic differences in a browser, even?
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
Thanks for pointing me to right place, Axel. 
In translation homepage, linked by Sander (http://firefox.pingviin.org), is already a little how to get translation both for Firefox and Thunderbird.
Sander states on that page that 80% of firefox is translated already. It seems like there is quite a minor work left to do.
The translation at the moment is good. Still some improvements can be made, but I can use their own forum to discuss and contribute.

Axel, you are right about Estonian, we have only one official way of writing. There are some dialects (all going to die), but every estonian has to read and write in official language in public schools.

Thanks for quick answers
Mattias
Summary: Firefox localization in Estonian (et-EE) → Firefox localization in Estonian [et]
the tool we have been using so long is translate toolkit and main translation is based on xpi as i still have no idea how to do it with mozilla tools, they seem strange.. only problams with xpi is that it doesn't get updated and whole firefox doesn't get updated if language xpi is installed, i hope those problems get fixed in 3.0

also the 20% untranslated stuff is mainly Help.. as it's very hard to translate it then i hope it goes the way it is in thunderbird (help is not included with program, help is in web)

translating the whole thing would be a lot easier if it would be based on .po files, the .dtd way is bit too complicated :)

and yes, the translation at the moment is not the best, but with 3.0 it will be all rechecked and fixed
I'll be working on some insight docs after I drop a few other things on the floor, maybe someone would even volunteer to turn some of that into a screencast ;-).

Anyway, as you're more than one now, localizing help could be a more attractive target. http://people.mozilla.com/~axel/l10n/ has an extension that helps with testing that you got the funky arcs in the rdf files right. It's not set in stone that we'll have the cycles to set up a web-based help for fx3, and even iff, most of the content will be based on what we currently ship. So getting that done won't be wasting too much time, I would think. And there will be remaining parts, in particular on how to connect to the internet.

Maybe Matthias can come up with some patches, too ;-)

IIRC, the translate toolkit works off of something that is a source and creates a language pack from that, is that what it does for you? It's a slightly tedious task to go from a language pack to a source, as the process from source to language pack is lossy. There is a script by Cedric to do most of the work, though, http://perso.orange.fr/cedric.corazza.net/html/langpack2cvstree.html.

It probably would make sense to actually step forward and work on getting this into CVS, as it seems like what you're doing so far might fall nicely into what we want anyway. There will be some fishyness on the road ahead, still, but if you're fine with that, I'd say we should take this one step further.
the problam with help is that there are so many things that just don't make any sense after i translate them, some words are used in many strings but in estonian for example if you take word "do"

i do (mina teen), you do (sina teed), he/she/it does (tema teeb), we do (meie teeme), you do (teie teete), they do (nemad teevad)

in english you guys may use that "do" in many different places but i simply can't.. it was kinda funny to read help after translating it :P

about the cvs thing.. we already have svn with websvn support at http://sander.struktuur.ee/websvn/listing.php?repname=Firefox

+ googlegroups list @ firefox-et@googlegroups.com where all the discuss goes..

at the moment it's easy to use and if mozilla would change to .po files so that for 2.0 is one po file + for 3.0 another then i would be happy to use your system but as long as i have to deal with .dtd files that i can't translate with any normal tool.. i just don't have time to open kwrite and change them that way as when i last time asked about tools - emacs was the only one the guys at translation channel told me to use :)
We're perfectly aware that translating help is different than UI, it's whole sentences, which requires different genes. I've done some translation of our webpages into German, and man, did I suffer. That's why it's good to have more than one person work on the localization, it might actually be that it is easier for one than for the other.

Regarding PO, those suck, and we won't use them. Yes, there are editors for PO, but sadly, the file format just satisfy what we need code-wise, nor process-wise. If we'll change our file formats, we'll need more substantial wins without breaking our architecture, which http://wiki.mozilla.org/L20n would be, most likely. Not going to happen before Mozilla2, of course.
The translate toolkit can smooth some of those edges between localizers using PO and Mozilla not, but it's not bug free, so in the end, you'll need to check the actual source files, DTDs and properties, mostly. That's mostly a testing and cvs diff, though, and doesn't require you to actually edit DTDs or properties files usually. Unless you run into a translate toolkit bug. The translate toolkit works equally well for the language pack setup you use and a source setup, so, for you, that's really just a different directory structure. When working in Mozilla's cvs, you'd have to convert to a source via translate toolkit and then do a cvs diff to find out if the changes in the sources actually reflect the changes you made, but that's really all. And that's just catching bugs that you'd otherwise had to catch while testing, so it's rather helping than additional work. At least I'd think so.
the thing is.. mozillas community is SO big.. would it be hard to make working converter that would convert from po to dtd and back.. and would be supported by mozilla so those ppl who are used to use po toolkits can do their translation that way.. i don't ask you to change whole translation system in mozilla.. just one supported converter would be more than COOL..

about estonian xpi.. it doesn't need much of testing, at the moment translate toolkit is working pretty well on it.. but yes, there are some bugs still :)

for me.. i use kbabel, i open it, update stuff that others have done, make my changes, commit from kbabel and if needed run one command from command line to generate xpi from my local tree.. and i don't know how can it get more easier than that :)
Translate toolkit uses code conventions in the mozilla code to make some assumptions on how to put things together and apart, in particular to merge accesskeys into labels and back.
Given how big the non-localization community in mozilla is, there are too many ways to break those assumptions for me to make such a conversion back-and-forth supported. Even if we did, I'd probably wouldn't feel comfortable trusting a compilation step without having a human look at it.
I know that there are points in the firefox code where we break those assumptions, and end up with problems that you can't currently fix in the po files.

If someone came up with an automated test suite that would find places in our source that break translate toolkit, that'd be a good first step. I'd even call it a requirement to actually trick me into revisiting my current decisions. And no, I have no idea what this test actually had to do, and if it's feasible, possible, doable, cheap. Anyway, those tests would be the only alternative to someone looking at each check-in a few times a day to find out if someone broke translate toolkit.

PO is loved by some part of our localization community, as much as hated by other parts of our localization community, and ignored by only a few. Thus I don't have PO as a live-or-die requirement on my list. It's really that there are some localizers out there that don't want to work on PO, some don't want to work on anything else.

For our builds, we need DTDs, that's a dead-on requirement, and those are actually most affected by the merging and forking of entries, i.e., accesskeys. Hacking UI in XML and other parts of the Mozilla architecture win here, by far.
Summary: Firefox localization in Estonian [et] → [et] Estonian: Firefox
one more question.. how can i get my xpi here: ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/2.0.0.5/linux-i686/xpi/ ? many linux distributors download language packs from that address and estonian is excluded as it's not there.. how do they get there?
Sander: only official localisations supported by the Mozilla Corporation are placed in that location.

We've recently developed new documentation about how to become an official l10n team for Firefox or Thunderbird:
http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Starting_a_localization

Could you please follow the procedure there, including creating yourself an L10n wiki page? That will make you the official Estonian localisation team.
If you can get yourself to the stage where you are able to distribute a working language pack for the latest version of Firefox, we can discuss checking the localisation into CVS. After that, we think about making it official (but that's a little way off yet.)

If you find the documentation isn't detailed enough, please let us know so we can fix it.

Gerv

No response after a month; closing the bug as INCOMPLETE. If anyone reading
this is interested in localising Mozilla products into this language, we'd love
to hear from you! Please file a new bug about it.

Thanks,

Gerv
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 17 years ago
Resolution: --- → INCOMPLETE
i'm back on it now..

http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Creating_en-X-dude#Create_a_language_pack

[sander@enduro build]$ ../mozilla/configure --disable-compile-environment --enable-application=browser
configure: error: compile-environment: invalid feature name

now this is something i didn't wait for :)

also how long would it take to get the official cvs?
there is some start in wiki too now: http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Teams:et
main reason to get it official somewhat fast is your homepage that doesn't correctly fall back to en-US, after updating estonian users land in here: http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/et-EE/firefox/2.0.0.9/whatsnew/ not cool :) (same thing happens in thunderbird for the welcome page)
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: INCOMPLETE → ---
The error is caused of different alphabet Estonian has.
Simply prefix the command with LC_ALL=C to make it run just as in English system.
hmm, ok.. that worked.. kinda..
it generated the package but when i installed it after restart my firefox just crashed :)

anyway, now that i have cvs checkout, what if there will come some updates, how can i merge those? and which directories must be translated? everything in l10n/lang-code/* ?
So, the crash looks like an encoding problem. Make sure that you have all your files saved in utf-8 (up to a few exceptions, see http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Encodings_for_localization_files, some of those files aren't used anymore).

Regarding the files to localize, yes, 'everything'. I'd hold back on the help files in browser/chrome/help, but other than that, 'everything' is key. Not always does 'localize' mean 'translate', though. There are a few CSS size specifications, those need to be set to the right size, but height and width shouldn't be translated. And there are a few switches, which use "true" and "false" as values, so if you see just those, be careful, too.

(In reply to comment #18)
> So, the crash looks like an encoding problem. Make sure that you have all your
> files saved in utf-8 (up to a few exceptions, see
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Encodings_for_localization_files, some of
> those files aren't used anymore).
> 
> Regarding the files to localize, yes, 'everything'. I'd hold back on the help
> files in browser/chrome/help, but other than that, 'everything' is key. Not
> always does 'localize' mean 'translate', though. There are a few CSS size
> specifications, those need to be set to the right size, but height and width
> shouldn't be translated. And there are a few switches, which use "true" and
> "false" as values, so if you see just those, be careful, too.
> 

yes, i know that, current estonian language pack is based on xpi file and translated over po files, so i know what to translate :)

now, i solved the problem with encodings and got the package working.. some more commands would be good to know now.. is there something for following how much (and what files) is translated?
also, is there some folder for webpages that are still not translated and are causing problems for those who update..
and how can i UPDATE my translation to the latest and greatest version, can't find any info about that either..
Sander: how are you getting on? Are the questions in comment #19 still causing you problems?

Gerv
I suggest using compare-locales, http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Compare-locales has info. If you use the one on pypi, you'll get better output than indicated on that page, there's sadly a fork in the universe.

Regarding updating to the latest and greatest, you would want to check out the trunk for en-US, copy your existing files next to it, and run compare-locales again. In the new version, it will actually report 

  - foo.label
  + foo2.label

next to each other, so you will even get a good idea which strings really just changed.

Going towards trunk and latest-and-greatest seems to be a good idea, too, as we're string frozen for Firefox 3 already, and will focus our efforts there now, with only limited resources to release more Firefox 2 localizations than already in the queue.
ok, that tool maybe would be not that hard to use, but first i should set up folders, that is something i don't get at all :)

it would be a lot easier if you would have some interface like launchpad for ubuntu.. something that holds strings needed to be translated and i would have to think only about translation problems not how i can translate at all.

also, as ff3 will be released sooner as i can work out how to translate right, can someone please upload fresh en-US(GB).xpi @ ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/3.0b3/linux-i686/xpi/  i really need that xpi as the beta2 xpi will break downloads window :( (probably some fresh strings missing from it..)

also a guid for how to get official cvs repo (to start working it out the right way) would be also very nice :)
Sander, working on a language pack is just going to push back problems that are inevitably coming your way. Language packs are created by a lossy process from our sources, and you'll have to make up for that.

I updated http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Creating_en-X-dude to work for Firefox 3 now, so you can follow that to get the en-US files.

If you have a language pack, you can use http://pagesperso-orange.fr/cedric.corazza.net/html/langpack2cvstree.html to convert that to a source.
Well, i'm ready to do it the official way, if you just tell me how to get it official and start working on cvs.. so long i have only my files and as i don't know the system i'm not sure how to merge new strings from mozilla into my dtd-s etc..
Attached file estonian (et) source — 
needs a review :)
Attachment #312614 - Flags: review?(l10n)
Comment on attachment 312614 [details]
estonian (et) source

wikipedia vs. et.wikipedia.org, I guess et.w.o is better.

Fixed links in bookmarks.html.

r=me, thanks for the patience. Follow-up bugs coming soon.

Fixed toolkit/defines.inc

Fixed region.properties to make Yahoo second.
Attachment #312614 - Flags: review?(l10n) → review+
Sander, mind filing a CVS account bug as follow up? http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Becoming_an_Official_Localization#CVS_write_access has details and a helper bug-filing link. Please make that bug depend on this one.
Status: REOPENED → ASSIGNED
Whiteboard: needs-pike
Blocks: 429361
For reference, the cvs account bug is bug 429361.

Sander, I finally get around to do the initial landing here, and I'll file a bunch of follow up bugs now to track actually shipping your Estonian localization.

Marking this bug FIXED, congratulations.
Status: ASSIGNED → RESOLVED
Closed: 17 years ago → 16 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Whiteboard: needs-pike
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