418273 - (fx3-wsl10n-zh-TW) Web services changes for Firefox 3 for Taiwan (zh-TW)

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(Mozilla Localizations :: zh-TW / Chinese (Traditional), defect)

Description

[Mic Berman]

Tracking bug for discussion on proposed changes for Taiwan.

Search engines: Google, Yahoo, Yahoo-Answers, CC, Wikipedia (tw)
Possibly replace Amazon with Findbook.tw - useful book search and price compare site, including lots of shopping sites
Replace eBay with Yahoo Auctions - it's the most popular Auction site in Taiwan

RSS Readers no change from defaults
Mailto and Calendar would be defaults

Live Bookmark - possibly replace yahoo.tw with  
http://www.pts.org.tw/php2/rss/xml/nightnewsrss.xml

Comment 1

[Mic Berman]

Beltzner, can you provide an opinion on yahoo.tw vs pts.org.tw
i'm a bit worried about too many yahoo services, although Yahoo is highly popular in Taiwan
Jose has suggested pts.org as he feels it's a good comprehensive news provider. my understanding is it's like our public television broadcasting type news source

thanks

Comment 2

[Po-chiang Chao [:bobchao]]

(In reply to comment #1)
> Jose has suggested pts.org as he feels it's a good comprehensive news provider.
> my understanding is it's like our public television broadcasting type news
> source

FYI: http://eng.pts.org.tw/index.php

Comment 3

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

PTS in Taian just like PBS in USA. Yahoo News is not bad, but the news source is from many newspapar/tv/others. When a big events happened,the feed will provide the same thing but from different source constantly. So I suggested PTS.

Comment 4

[Jack Guo]

I understand PTS is good too, but since the majority of end-users in Taiwan selected Yahoo News as their preferred news service, follow their choice will help us spread firefox in Taiwan. 

By the way, I've convinced Yahoo Taiwan agreed to use Yahoo resource to promote FF3.0 with us together. We are working on a marketing plan now. They will be one of our partners. 

 

Comment 5

[Po-chiang Chao [:bobchao]]

Guo, There will be 3 Yahoo! services in Fx3's search bar (Yahoo!Search, Yahoo!Bid, Yahoo!Knowledge,) IMO it's enough for the marketing plan?

A "different (and better IMO) choice" might be great for Firefox's branding image, too. Worth to give it a try.

Comment 6

[Jack Guo]

3 Yahoo is too much, we can remove the Yahoo! Bid. 

Comment 7

[Po-chiang Chao [:bobchao]]

ah... I'd rather remove Y!Answer (Knowledge) than Y!Bid, anyways that should be another question. :)

We have 2 topics for discussion now:
T1. remove Y!Answer or Y!Bid, or keep them all.
T2. Use PTS news, or still Y!News for fx3's default live bookmark.

IMO:
for T1, keep them all and we lose nothing. The list is still controlled in 6 search engines, both Y!Bid and Y!Answer are popular (and useful in some view) in Taiwan.
for T2, since we've provide Y!News from Fx 1 (for more than 3 yrs 'til now, and Y! is even the default search engine in Fx 2.0,) I think we could try to provide another (and IMO a better) choice in this release.

Comment 8

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

(In reply to comment #4)
> I understand PTS is good too, but since the majority of end-users in Taiwan
> selected Yahoo News as their preferred news service, follow their choice will
> help us spread firefox in Taiwan. 

Hey Jack: where did they make this choice? is the content on the Yahoo News website the exact same as the content in the RSS feed?

A concern I have with using the Yahoo News RSS feed is that as per comment 3, the content aggregates from various sources, resulting in multiple entries for a single event.

> By the way, I've convinced Yahoo Taiwan agreed to use Yahoo resource to promote
> FF3.0 with us together. We are working on a marketing plan now. They will be
> one of our partners. 

That's great to hear.

(In reply to comment #7)
> We have 2 topics for discussion now:
> T1. remove Y!Answer or Y!Bid, or keep them all.

There's no *need* to have a certain number of search engines, so if Y!Answers is in the list merely to bring the number up, and not because it actually provides a useful resource for Taiwanese users, I'd recommend we cut Y!Answer.

As per comment 0, Y!Bid is the most popular auction site in Taiwan, so I don't think it should be removed.

Right now my preference would be to use PTS news for the live bookmark resource, but I'd like to get a little more context as to why Jack believes that Yahoo would provide a better user experience.

Comment 9

[Jack Guo]

Hello Mike, We have discussed this with our community friends in Taiwan. This questions is worked out now. We all agree to follow end-user's choice. We will use Yahoo News RSS feed, embed Yahoo Search, Yahoo Answers in as default search engine. 

Comment 10

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Re search, I see a move from wikipedia-zh to wikipedia-zh-TW, that's mostly adding a ?variant=zh-tw, right? Did you try whether that works for suggestions, too?

The ShortName should be "Wikipedia (zh)", wp changed the titles on their side.

What are we doing for mailto and webcal protocol handlers?

Comment 11

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Can we localize the ShortName to "維基百科"? I believe the user is familiar with localized name.

> What are we doing for mailto and webcal protocol handlers?
Same as en-US.

Comment 12

[Mic Berman]

so to finalize search engines: Google, Yahoo, Yahoo-Answers, Yahoo-Bid, CC, Wikipedia (tw)

rationale (from above) for 2 additional Yahoo services is: Yahoo-Answers provides a unique user experience, Yahoo-Bid is the best local auction site so it should replace eBay.

LiveBoomark/RSS Feed - Jack sent me an email in answer to Mike's question in comment #8 "based on a market survey report, in which shows that Yahoo dominated...taiwan internet market", my view is that even though Yahoo dominates the market we should also provide balanced user choice and based on all comments above about PTS, I'd suggest we go with them. 

RSS Readers no change from defaults
Mailto and Calendar would be defaults

Comment 13

[Po-chiang Chao [:bobchao]]

(In reply to comment #12)
> so to finalize search engines: Google, Yahoo, Yahoo-Answers, Yahoo-Bid, CC,
> Wikipedia (tw)

No Findbook.tw in the final list?

Comment 14

[Mic Berman]

actually i was just about to comment on this. it's ok if we include them however I don't believe we have a patch yet and we need to get their permission. 

Do we (you) have their permission and a search plug-in to use?

Comment 15

[Po-chiang Chao [:bobchao]]

Yes, I've got their permission.
I believe Jose, the locale owner, got their search plug-in, too.
the patch should be on working.

Comment 16

[Mic Berman]

brilliant, jose can you land the patch, request review from axel and we can move closer to resolving fixed this bug :)

Comment 17

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

I've commit the patch to CVS for test.

Comment 18

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Please don't just land stuff to search engines, any change needs to go through a review process, otherwise we won't be able to ship zh-TW.

I can't tell from anything you wrote here which patch you checked in, for which tests. Please provide details.

Comment 19

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Sorry, so I need upload patch file to bugzilla?

Comment 20

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Attachment: findbook-zh-TW.xml

Comment 21

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Attachment: yahoo-answer-zh-TW.xml

Comment 22

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Attachment: yahoo-bid-zh-TW.xml

Comment 23

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

The finalize list is: Google, Yahoo, Yahoo Answers, Yahoo Bid, Findbook, CC, Wikipedia (zh)

Comment 24

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

So, we need a patch for the following:

For the mailto handlers, we need the en-US defaults like in http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvsblame.cgi?file=/mozilla/browser/locales/en-US/chrome/browser-region/region.properties&rev=&cvsroot=/cvsroot&mark=20-34, including the bumped defaultHandlersVersion.

For yahoo-answer-zh-TW.xml and yahoo-bid-zh-TW.xml, no OpenSearch, MozSearch please.
Same for findbook-zh-TW, but in addition, please use <Param> elements, and the suggestion Url should be in its own line. <Param> for both <Url>s, please.

Please create a patch with cvs -z3 diff -uN, and request review from me by setting the review flag to '?' and entering my bugmail ID as requestee.

Comment 25

[Mic Berman]

following on comment #12, for live bookmark yahoo or pts - i understand there has been new information that happened in discussions outside this bug.

jose can you confirm the team's recommendation please, thanks

Comment 26

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

PS: all the new plugins miss a <SearchForm> element, that should be added, too.

Comment 27

[Po-chiang Chao [:bobchao]]

(In reply to comment #25)
> following on comment #12, for live bookmark yahoo or pts - i understand there
> has been new information that happened in discussions outside this bug.
> 
> jose can you confirm the team's recommendation please, thanks

In the disscussion between MozTW l10n team and MozillaOnline, Jack and Li want Yahoo and the reason is the same as Jack mailed you (comment #12). Though we're still on PTS' side (for balanced user choice, just like what you said), I can understand their concern about the market share. We agreed to keep yahoo in Fx 3 to see if it really can improve market share, and try to nominate PTS in the future.

So,
1. Actually we (moztw l10n team) still want to nominate PTS, but
2. we agreed with Li and Jack to keep Y!News this time.

Comment 28

[Jack Guo]

Great, and Thanks. 

Let us march forward to be ready for Firefox 3.0 final release :) 

Comment 29

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Attachment: patch of findbook-zh-TW.xml, yahoo-answer-zh-TW.xml, yahoo-bid-zh-TW.xml

Comment 30

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Comment on attachment 314293 [details] [diff] [review]
patch of findbook-zh-TW.xml, yahoo-answer-zh-TW.xml, yahoo-bid-zh-TW.xml

r=me, thanks. Please land this with a comment referencing this bug and my review, something like "bug 418273, address review comments on search plugins, r=[e-mail]" would do

Comment 31

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Committed. Thank you.

Comment 32

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Thanks, marking VERIFIED with reference http://hg.mozilla.org/users/axel_mozilla.com/l10n-src-verification/index.cgi/file/ddb29834a33d/reference/HEAD/zh-TW/.

Jose Sun, please use more descriptive check-in comments in the future. "Bug foo, r=" doesn't say what you're doing and, in particular with long and involved bugs like this, doesn't help that much. In particular when a good check-in comment was just a copy-n-paste away.

Comment 33

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Got it. I will improve description next time.

Comment 34

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Reopened for unapproved change to region.properties, http://bonsai-l10n.mozilla.org/cvsview2.cgi?command=DIFF&subdir=%2Fl10n%2Fzh-TW%2Fbrowser%2Fchrome%2Fbrowser-region&file=region.properties&rev1=1.13&rev2=1.15&whitespace_mode=show&diff_mode=context.

Please back those out again.

Comment 35

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Attachment: backing out search ordering

Patch to back out the non-approved ordering changes. Not that they ever worked in the first place.

Requesting review from Gavin on this one.

Comment 36

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Attachment: patch of Modify search plugins order

Comment 37

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

Patch of my changes.
I think this change didn't needed approving by mistake, sorry.

Comment 38

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Comment on attachment 314842 [details] [diff] [review]
patch of Modify search plugins order

This doesn't work. Please back it out.

This in fact breaks ordering of Yahoo being on second position, and might break contractional obligations.

As Mic pointed out, further ordering of search engines beyond the first two has been dismissed for Firefox 3 in bug 407922 in general.

Comment 39

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

I don't understand. Yahoo still in the second position in my patch, and the order will be very confuse without this patch.

Comment 40

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Attachment: screen shot of broken search on mac

As you apparently don't take my word for it, and don't test yourself, here's a screen shot from a build I did just now.

Comment 41

[Jose Sun (Moztw.org)]

OK, Let's back out the non-approved changes.
After i tested it's worked, I've request a patch again.

Comment 42

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Back-out confirmed, I don't see us blocking on the ordering, nor do I see us necessarily doing it. If you think so, please file a new bug on that, and request approval1.9 on the patch, as Firefox 3 l10n is now frozen.

Reference remains at http://hg.mozilla.org/users/axel_mozilla.com/l10n-src-verification/index.cgi/file/ddb29834a33d/reference/HEAD/zh-TW/.