Closed Bug 426279 Opened 16 years ago Closed 1 month ago

Clarify exception policy in new bookmark localization policy

Categories

(Camino Graveyard :: Bookmarks, defect)

Product:
Camino Graveyard
Component:
Bookmarks
Platform:
PowerPC
macOS
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
minor

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED INCOMPLETE

People

(Reporter: stefano.listas, Assigned: samuel.sidler+old)

References

(
URL
)

Details

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; pt; rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080324 Camino/1.6b3 (like Firefox/2.0.0.13)
Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; pt; rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080324 Camino/1.6b3 (like Firefox/2.0.0.13)

MSNBC, NYTines, BBC... There are many western news websites and two of them aren't even localizable!
NYTimes should be replaced at least for an eastern website like Al Jazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/) so that users will be able to get different views... Also NYTimes isn't even a paper that focuses international news on its front-page.

Tech News could also have at least one link to be changed by localizers. This could be good to promote Camino all over the world since the owner of a tech paper could get to know that its website is filed as Camino's default bookmarks and make a positive review about the browser, for instance.

Reproducible: Always
At this point I don't think we're going to be changing the default bookmarks again any time soon.

In addition, while many of the default bookmarks aren't "localizable" in the sense of "there are localized versions of this site available," any bookmark in the list is "localizable" (in the sense of "replace this bookmark with a more appropriate one for my locale") under our bookmark/search localization policy  by simply filing a bug, as you've done in bug 426276.

For the default bookmarks, we have to carefully balance the need for variety with the needs of most en-US Camino users (and while I'm personally quite fond of al-Jazeera, I'm certain that Bugzilla and our feedback list would not be filled with happy messages from our userbase if we added al-Jazeera to the en-US bookmarks).
I'm sorry but one of us got the Localization Policies wrong.
In my view localizers can only change bookmarks that we're allowed to and this is endorsed by the following, which can be read at <http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Development:Localization_Policies>:

"At no time should a bookmark be removed, changed, or added unless it is explicitly mentioned in a section below."

While the overall is good, this specific policy is not because I don't think most Brazilians would be interested by an american shopping website, for instance, since it would probably not deliver anything in another country... This also applies to news websites where the articles might just not be any useful for anyone outside its main country and even if it matters, most people would simply not understand since they do not speak English.

Maybe the best thing to do would be letting every localizer to change ANY or MOST (not just a few) of the default bookmarks after receiving its approval by some Camino developers here in Bugzilla.
I think this is a even better solution than claiming on a change on the default bookmarks.

(In reply to comment #1)
> At this point I don't think we're going to be changing the default bookmarks
> again any time soon.
> 
> In addition, while many of the default bookmarks aren't "localizable" in the
> sense of "there are localized versions of this site available," any bookmark in
> the list is "localizable" (in the sense of "replace this bookmark with a more
> appropriate one for my locale") under our bookmark/search localization policy 
> by simply filing a bug, as you've done in bug 426276.
> 
> For the default bookmarks, we have to carefully balance the need for variety
> with the needs of most en-US Camino users (and while I'm personally quite fond
> of al-Jazeera, I'm certain that Bugzilla and our feedback list would not be
> filled with happy messages from our userbase if we added al-Jazeera to the
> en-US bookmarks).
> 


(In reply to comment #2)
> Maybe the best thing to do would be letting every localizer to change ANY or
> MOST (not just a few) of the default bookmarks after receiving its approval by
> some Camino developers here in Bugzilla.

Stefano, this is supposed to be the case (via the "Exceptions" section) as I understand it; sorry that ended up not being clear.

To clarify further:

* Bookmarks specifically mentioned in the policy can be localized or removed without filing a bug (except MSNBC, which is explicitly mentioned as replaceable with a bug)

* All other bookmarks can be changed/removed (or new ones added) after approval via Bugzilla.

Sam, is this how you understood the intent of the Exceptions section?  That's certainly what I thought I was r+ing.

If we're all on the same page now, we should change 

"At no time should a bookmark be removed, changed, or added unless it is explicitly mentioned in a section below."

to be something like

"At no time should a bookmark be removed, changed, or added without follow the policy outlined in the Exceptions section, unless the bookmark is explicitly mentioned in a section below."

and then also clarify those odd sites in News (Guardian, NYTimes, and especially MSNBC).
(In reply to comment #3)
> Sam, is this how you understood the intent of the Exceptions section?  That's
> certainly what I thought I was r+ing.

That was exactly my intent and I agree with the change you suggest.
Morphing this bug a bit... We need to clarify the exception policy as comment 3 says.
Assignee: nobody → samuel.sidler
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
Summary: Purposing change in default bookmarks → Clarify exception policy in new bookmark localization policy
I went ahead and changed the first paragraph of the "Remove/Add/Change" section to

At no time should a bookmark be removed, changed, or added without prior approval (as outlined in the [[#Exceptions|Exceptions]] section), unless the bookmark is explicitly mentioned in a section below.

in order to at least point in the right direction.

We may want to tweak that text further to make it more clear still, and also do the last paragraph of comment 3, but this at least makes the policy start to sound like we intended it to sound.
URL: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Develop...
And how many bookmarks would be "acceptable" for localizers to change? Because I'd change about 15 of them... Beside the ones like Google News, which has its own Brazilian version, there are plenty of websites like Amazon, which does not have any Brazilian version but its features and content can be easily found on similar and popular websites from here.
Also, I'd add at least orkut.com under the "Social" folder because it's a very, very famous social network in Brazil... It's pretty much like FaceBook.
Any number is acceptable to change, with approval.

If you submit a list in the following format, we'll go through and approve them one by one... something like:

  1. msnbc -> www.estadao.com.br

--

As far as Orkut goes, we wouldn't allow it for the reasons discussed in bug 377934 (specifically comment 20). For all sites, there needs to be some subjective amount of non-logged in actions for users to take. Orkut doesn't fall into that category (and it's actually why we removed Facebook and LinkedIn in that bug).
(In reply to comment #8)
> Any number is acceptable to change, with approval.
> 
> If you submit a list in the following format, we'll go through and approve them
> one by one... something like:
> 
>   1. msnbc -> www.estadao.com.br

Ok... So I'll reopen bug 426276 and submit there all bookmarks I'd like to change.
Actually, since we already resolved that one and approved it, can you file a new bug?
(In reply to comment #10)
> Actually, since we already resolved that one and approved it, can you file a
> new bug?

Ok, the proposed changes are in the bug 427670 
In addition to comment 6, it would be good to mention the last part of comment 8 in the "site guidelines" part of the Exceptions section.

We also need to add something like "When listing bookmark changes, please include full URLs as you plan to use them in the bookmark (e.g. http://www.sitename.com/mac/)" also, so that we get clickable links in bugs. 
In addition to those, we need to clarify the Exceptions section itself to mention providing a full set of changes if there's more than just one (instead of one bug per bookmark; the first part of comment 8).

We also need to do a better job of addressing http://mozdev.org/pipermail/caminol10n/2008-April/002388.html

I think the general rule for localizing titles is "if the site itself localizes the title, you should use the localized title" but I'd have to run through the list to see what happens.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 1 month ago
Resolution: --- → INCOMPLETE
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