433465 - Incorrect Valencian dictionary

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(addons.mozilla.org Graveyard :: Dictionaries, defect)

Description

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

I attach a sample list of significant errors of a submitted Valencian dictionary, which introduces a great deal of confusion in Valencian speakers who want to use Mozilla spellchecking capabilities.

* ch -> This digraph does not exist in Valencian, but it's widely used in this dictionary.
This is an important source of confusion, since "ch" is present in Spanish and so many people could become unaware of the spelling error.
- Example: antorcha, which should be antorxa
* y -> A similar case with ch. In Valencian is not normally used, but "i" or "j". So it's another big source of confusion.
- Example: yogurt, should be iogurt 
- Example: ya, should be ja
* l·l (ela geminada) digraph has disappeared.
- Example: gorila, should be goril·la
* Many word misspellings. Example:
- verp, which should be verb
- artícul, which should be article
- sancer, which should be sencer
- utilisa, which should be utilitza
* Incorrect stress marks
- Example: perqué, which should be perquè
* Other errors
- Example: "l'indústria", which should be "la indústria".

and so on...

See AVL normative for reference (http://www.avl.gva.es/)
You can also use a correct online dictionary to check some of these words (http://www.trobat.com/servicis/dvo.php)

Comment 1

[Wil Clouser [:clouserw]]

CC'ing the author of the dictionary for comment on the above.  Do you consider these typos in the dictionary?

Comment 2

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

They are not typos, but severe orthographic and grammar errors such as ignoring several alphabet letters and digraphs, as I explained above.

Comment 3

[Bernat]

Thanks Wil for adding me as I'm the maintainer for this addon.

These are not typos nor errors. In fact, the divergences of this dictionary with the AVL normative are much bigger than you report.

This dictionary follows the works of the Real Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana, their own openoffice dictionary is available here (http://llenguavalenciana.com). As you can see at the bottom of the page, it's endorsed by the valencian governement (Generalitat Valenciana) and the county council (Diputació de Valéncia) too.

Comment 4

[chris hofmann]

Barnat,

Do you know if there is information about the size of the population that would find this dictionary useful and appropriate?   I found some information in this paper but I haven't fully digested it and I'm looking for additional perspectives about language usage in the Valencian region.

http://www.escriptors.cat/documents/20.3.pdf   see page 89 of the text.

Toni, it would be helpful if you also knew of information about language use in the region that you could share.

Toni has also mentioned a problem with correct labeling of the dictionaries to help avoid confusion, and people not getting what they expect.  I think we need to work on a good solution there.

Additional tweeking maybe needed to pages like https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3790#reviews   

If we add good descriptions that reflect the contents and source of the dictionary information, and add cross links to other choices, I think we will go a long way to ensure people can find the dictionary they might be searching for.

Comment 5

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #4)
> Barnat,
> 
> Do you know if there is information about the size of the population that would
> find this dictionary useful and appropriate?   I found some information in this
> paper but I haven't fully digested it and I'm looking for additional
> perspectives about language usage in the Valencian region.
> 
> http://www.escriptors.cat/documents/20.3.pdf   see page 89 of the text.

This paper is very confusing and touches a lot on politics that I won't discuss here. As you can see, there's a lot of bad accusations on it and bias.

When it says that 62.7% speaks valencian quite well or perfectly, that's true, but that's totally false for catalan, few people here can talk catalan decently. But then, when it says that 20.4% writes well or perfectly, that's true for catalan, and it's true that 79.6% can't write catalan because they can't speak it well neither. They can read catalan with much effort too, and a dictionary.

> 
> Toni has also mentioned a problem with correct labeling of the dictionaries to
> help avoid confusion, and people not getting what they expect.  I think we need
> to work on a good solution there.
> 
> Additional tweeking maybe needed to pages like
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3790#reviews   
> 
> If we add good descriptions that reflect the contents and source of the
> dictionary information, and add cross links to other choices, I think we will
> go a long way to ensure people can find the dictionary they might be searching
> for.
> 

I wrote there an extended description in an effort to avoid confusion reported by Toni in the past. Although I haven't had any reports of such confusion from users since they normally know when they want the catalan or valencian translation, or maybe they don't even really care.

I think that any additional clarification wouldn't be harmful, but I wouldn't like that one translation gets tagged as the good one and the other as the bad one.

If you want to do something good for all users, I'm with you. But if this is going to become a political debate, I have better things to do.

Comment 6

[Wil Clouser [:clouserw]]

Thanks for the suggestion Chris and the feedback Bernat.  I asked Toni to file this bug so we could discuss this in the open and come to a constructive conclusion.

For the record, this bug is referring specifically to the Valencian dictionary at https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4796 .  A decision here may spill over into the Valencian language pack (which Chris linked to), but let's stay on topic as much as possible.

The Valencian dictionary's description has a clearly labeled warning which, if accurate, seems reasonable to me.  As far as differentiating the two, on our main dictionary page ( https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browse/type:3 ) we have the ability to add (very short!) descriptions to the add-ons, for example, the German dictionaries on that page.  If a succinct description could be provided, I'd be happy to add it to the Valencian or Catalan dictionaries or both which would seem to fulfill the distinction goal.

Comment 7

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

Hello all,

Bernat is introducing confusion about what is Valencian, Catalan and so on, and I think it's necessary to clarify it publicly so you, and all people who is visiting this bug, can fully understand what is going on.

* Valencian is the traditional and official name of Catalan language in Valencia region. That does not mean they are separate languages (as Bernat is pretending using separate locale codes and according to his discourse). This has as little sense as stating that German is only spoken in German, and there is an Austrian and Swiss language different from a German one. So, Bernat's remarks on Valencian (that is, Catalan) usage are simply hilarious. 
* Valencian can refer also to varieties of Catalan language spoken in Valencia region. Just as example, some varieties spoken in Catalonia (eg. Northern-Western ones, Lleida region) are closer to Valencian ones than to others in Catalonia (eg. Central, Barcelona region).
* The guidelines of Valencian varieties (that is Catalan language in Valencian region) to be officially and normatively written are ditctated by AVL (Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua), which is a direct institution of Generalitat Valenciana, Valencia regional government. This standard guidelines and orthography must be used in all public institutions and also in education.
I will roughly translate you a bit about the institution presentation, which you can find in its website: http://www.avl.gva.es/

@L'Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua és una institució estatutària de caràcter públic creada per la Generalitat Valenciana i adscrita a Presidència. Té per objecte determinar i elaborar la normativa lingüística del valencià, però no perquè la nostra llengua no tinga tal normativa, ben al contrari, el seu procés de normativització va cristal·litzar ara fa set dècades per mitjà de l'acord ortogràfic denominat Normes de Castelló, que l'any 2007 commemorarà el 75 aniversari.@

"Valencian Academy of Language is a public regional institution created by Valencian Government and appointed to its Presidency. It's aim is determining and elaborating a linguist norm for Valencian, not because our language did not have any before; on the contrary, its normalization process actually crystallized seven decades ago thanks to Normes de Castelló orthographic agreement, which its 75th anniversary was commemorated in 2007."

REMARK: You should consider that official usage of Catalan language was banned by Spanish authorities for many centuries, and only after some political conditions allowed it, this language could have a norm of its own as other languages had by the beginning of 20th century.

Valencian universities have similar documentation, for instance: Linguistic criteria for institutional uses of Valencian universities (http://www.ua.es/spv/assessorament/criteris.pdf)

Both AVL and Valencian universities make their official specific regional recommendations coherently and based upon whole Catalan language normative (from IEC -> http://www.iec.cat)

As a matter of the fact, the difference between Catalan institutional or academic texts written in Barcelona or Valencia are slight and are basically just a few spelling differences and some lexicon preferences. For instance, in Catalan<->Spanish automatic translators (http://softcatala.org/traductor/), we may enable to consider these preferences, which are normally quite regular.

Our present correct dictionary, tagged as Catalan/Valencian in this site (http://softcatala.org/wiki/Corrector_ortogr%C3%A0fic), is considering for instance all the formal written varieties of Catalan language (in Balearic Islands, Catalonia and Valencia)

The dictionary submitted by Bernardo is only of interest to their authors and a few other supporters of certain political ideas. It's not using an official regional standard variety as I explained above, and it's even using a different made-up alphabet. So, it's of not use at all to people in schools, administrations, companies, universities, and so on. Nowadays it's producing confusion to a vast majority of people who search for a dictionary and is actually enraging many others as they understand, very correctly in my opinion, that this kind of stuff should not be listed in that place.

Contrarily to Bernat, I have no problem at all to explain publicly to all you the political issues behind all these actions if you are interested in.

Finally, in my humble opinion, this kind of addons, which are not motivated by linguistic criteria, but actually political ones, should not be included in dictionaries and langpacks list. So you can understand, this would be comparable to an American person who hated England made up an "American" dictionary with their own alphabet and spelling and claimed that English varieties are indeed different languages and ignored current regional widely-used language norms. That's the reason I opened another general bug (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=432971), so after this case could be solved, it might not repeat again in the future with other languages.

Please, do not hesitate to ask me anything.

Comment 8

[Bernat]

First of all, I must make clear that there's no politics behind my actions. Maybe Toni wants to explain his political motivations, or maybe we're talking about politics when we shouldn't. This is what I'd better avoid wasting my time on, having to read the political views of anyone.

I'm trying to defend the user's right to choose. I've been very supportive of free software over the years, and that's the thing I most like and rave about it. This dictionary is very useful to me and I know it's very useful to a lot others that have expressed so. I've shared it so people can choose to use it, and with it we're promoting free software too, like Firefox and Openffice.

Since Toni is trying to minimize, to say the least, the value of our dictionary, I must say a few things.

It's true that the catalan dictionary recognizes the formal registry of catalan, there's a vulgar registry that isn't recognized and it's a mixture of catalan and valencian nobody feels comfortable with, but it's needed to try to minimize differences of the two languages. Our dictionary doesn't use any of these varieties, it's 100% valencian lexic and grammar, and it's valencian ortography according to valencian phonetics. This is very important for helping valencian speakers reading and writing valencian. I won't bore you with the history of valencian language, I'll just say it was the first official language in Valencia by year 1982 until PSOE entered the valencian government and they incrementally showed more support for catalan.

On the academic side, it's true that academic documents are very alike, that's because the "Linguistic Normalization and Promotion Area" (http://www.upv.es/entidades/APNL/indexv.html/) reviews and modifies all documents published in valencian at universities so they follow catalan normative as closest as possible. University professors have united forming the Colectiu Fullana (http://www.cfullana.org/) to protect his rights when publishing, but since a few years ago they must accept that policy or they must publish on they own paying the expenses themselves.

In despite of that case, and maybe other government employees that are required to use spanish and AVL normative for public documents, other people can use our dictionary for writing anything and it will be valid and accepted everywhere, including administration offices since they must respect people's right to use their native language (call it whatever).

As you can see, "Linguistic Normalization and Promotion Area" and "Valencian Academy of Language (AVL)", none of them say which language they regulate in order to feed the confusion about which language they regulate, one or the other, or maybe the two. The confusion Toni talks about might be more related to this than to me.

Toni, I'll end this discussion here if you don't have anymore useful comments to do. I think you're using this bug to promote your political views. You're accusing me of very bad things that you can't prove, we haven't ever met, and you don't even know me. I hope this doesn't continue.

Comment 9

[chris hofmann]

The more I study and try to understand the issues here, the more I see that
Mozilla will not be much help in solving the long standing political, academic,
linguistic, and common usage, disputes that are present here and in other
writings on the topic.  

I found it interesting to note the comment in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Valencian that in the eyes of one wikipeida
author "this is one of the most disputed pages I've run across."  This is one
point I think that we might all be able to agree on.

I can respond to a few things that I think are important to understand about
the way I think about Firefox and the Add-on Site.

Firefox is designed to provide a simple basic browsing experience in the base
product; then it has an extension system to provide a mechanism for
customization and experimentation.  This designed evolve out of many years of
development and learning that we can't provide a browser that meets everyone's
needs, and we also want to provide a platform for experimentation and variety.

What kinds of things go on the Addons Site?
-------------------------------------------

Tony made the commnent:

> Finally, in my humble opinion, this kind of addons, which are not motivated by
linguistic criteria, but actually political ones, should not be included in
dictionaries and langpacks list.

In general we don't put constraints on the content of addons.  Addons, and the
Addon Site, are a place for experimentation and sharing new ways and ideas to
extend the browser.  The users of addons can sort out the value and interest
area of each addon and decide if it is right for them.  We do have a technical
review process to check for security and privacy concerns, and we have a
comment and voting system where users can provide feedback on the quality and
usefulness of the addon as "protection mechanisms" for users.

The size of the audience is not critical.
-----------------------------------------

Tony also made the comment:

> The dictionary submitted by Bernardo is only of interest to their authors and a few other supporters of certain political ideas.

I'm not completely sure that Bernardo agrees with this. I've asked a couple of
times for concrete data and studies that support how many people might have a
genuine interest in this addon; but in the context of the addon site that is
not important.  As I mentioned, the goal for add-ons is to allow all kinds of
experimentation and customization of the browser to meet individual needs and
desires.

What kinds of protections do we want to provide for users?
----------------------------------------------------------

I mentioned the security and privacy areas above, but I don't these come into
play in this discussion.

We want users to have some understanding of what they are getting when the
download an addon, and that they have a way to share feedback with other users.

Some claim were made by Tony that some users are confused and disappointed by
installation of this addon.

> Nowadays it's producing confusion to a vast majority of people who search for a dictionary and is actually enraging many others as they understand.

Again, I'm very interest in trying to get data that shows this is a problem,
and in solutions that help to remove any confusion that users might have about
what they are downloading and installing before they make the choice to get
this addon.

All the data that we have so far seems to indicate that the average user that
downloads has a positive rating of the extension.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3790#reviews

Its also clear that reviews tend to be at either end of the voting spectrum
just like we might expect with something so disputed.

The 5000 total downloads seems to support the idea that there is a limited
number of people using the extension, and with that limited use there might not
actually be that many people that are confused by what they are getting.

It seems like:

- Toni's comment zero with information about "what's inside this extension", 

- Bernat's information in comment 5 about the population of users that might
find interest and value in this extension

- Sections of Toni's comment 7 that talk about "other choices" users might want
to consider

Are all appropriate for the feedback section for this addon on the addon site,
It seems like these comments ought to be moved out of this bug and on to the
comment section for the addon so that users that run across this addon will
have the techincal information and background needed so they can decide if it
is right for their needs.

I guess that puts the addon comment/review page at risk for turning into a long
winded and confusing discussion that we have seen on the wikipedia talk page,
but that some of the risk we face.  I'd encourage feedback be kept concise and
on-topic.

I hope these ideas help all to understand what we are trying to do with firefox
and the addon site and move this discussion and work forward.

Comment 10

[chris hofmann]

Bernat's and my submissions collided.  I think there are parts of his comment 8 that should be moved out to the description/comment/review sections for addon to help users have a better understanding and assist in understanding what the addon provides, what needs it meets, and who the intended audience is.

Again, I'd encourage all the comments moved there to remain civil and reflect a neutral point of view when dealing with areas outside the technical content of the extension.

Comment 11

[Álvaro Martínez Majado]

First of all, I will thanks Bernat for supporting free software and working in projects related with Mozilla products, which I use everyday and so I wold love any possible improvements.

However, this dictionary that Bernat is promoting is a dictionary of a fictitious language. A fictitious language built using Catalan-Valencian-Balear words and rules and changing some little things. And he is trying that Mozilla includes this dictionary in Mozilla's official webpage.

I believe that Mozilla should not publish this dictionary in its webpage as Mozilla should not publish "The SMS English Dictionary" or any other dictionaries for fictitious ways of writing.

The Academic Community has a clear opinion about this discussion: Valencian and Catalan are the same language. Valencian is the name used in València of the same language that in Catalunya is called Catalan. Please, see Ethnologue's entry of Catalan-Valencian-Balear language for more information about this: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=cat

Ethnologue is "an encyclopedic reference work cataloging all of the world’s 6,912 known living languages", made from a very extensive bibliography that can be consulted at http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/bibliography.asp, so I am citing an authority. If Bernat do us the favor of link a single authoritative  webpage in which his variant of Valencian is used, I promise I will revise this opinion.

Comment 12

[Álvaro Martínez Majado]

Note: I started writing my Comment #11 after comments #9 and #10 were published.

Comment 13

[Álvaro Martínez Majado]

In context of addons and not in any official Mozilla site, I think that some kind of warning text about the non-normative changes that Toni explains in Comment 1 will be useful and necessary.

Comment 14

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

Hi Chris,

(In reply to comment #9)
> The more I study and try to understand the issues here, the more I see that
> Mozilla will not be much help in solving the long standing political, academic,
> linguistic, and common usage, disputes that are present here and in other
> writings on the topic.  
> 
> I found it interesting to note the comment in
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Valencian that in the eyes of one wikipeida
> author "this is one of the most disputed pages I've run across."  This is one
> point I think that we might all be able to agree on.
> 

Of course Mozilla cannot solve this issue, which as I have pointed, it is of a
strict political motivation rather than linguistic. I only have to add that
this conflict is actually promoted from certain political positions, known
globally as blaverism, since the end of Francoism in Spain. 
The sad outcome of all this is that is putting hurdles in Valencian full usage
in Valencian society (read: divide and conquer) I will not enter in the gory
details, but some people here in CC know them perfectly.
As I explained in the other openend bug, I only suggested that Mozilla should
follow academic criteria when dealing with linguistic issues, shouldn't it?

> I can respond to a few things that I think are important to understand about
> the way I think about Firefox and the Add-on Site.
> 
> Firefox is designed to provide a simple basic browsing experience in the base
> product; then it has an extension system to provide a mechanism for
> customization and experimentation.  This designed evolve out of many years of
> development and learning that we can't provide a browser that meets everyone's
> needs, and we also want to provide a platform for experimentation and variety.
> 
> What kinds of things go on the Addons Site?
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Tony made the commnent:
> 
> > Finally, in my humble opinion, this kind of addons, which are not motivated by
> linguistic criteria, but actually political ones, should not be included in
> dictionaries and langpacks list.
> 
> In general we don't put constraints on the content of addons.  Addons, and the
> Addon Site, are a place for experimentation and sharing new ways and ideas to
> extend the browser.  The users of addons can sort out the value and interest
> area of each addon and decide if it is right for them.  We do have a technical
> review process to check for security and privacy concerns, and we have a
> comment and voting system where users can provide feedback on the quality and
> usefulness of the addon as "protection mechanisms" for users.
> 

If this addon is to be in addons site, at least should not be not in any language section or langpack and dictionary list.
As I explained, it is not strictly speaking a language/dictionary extension. 
As I pointed out, this should be taken into account in other future cases as
well, unless we wanted that list to be a battle arena and might lose its
usefulness.

> The size of the audience is not critical.
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> Tony also made the comment:
> 
> > The dictionary submitted by Bernardo is only of interest to their authors and a few other supporters of certain political ideas.
> 
> I'm not completely sure that Bernardo agrees with this. I've asked a couple of
> times for concrete data and studies that support how many people might have a
> genuine interest in this addon; but in the context of the addon site that is
> not important.  As I mentioned, the goal for add-ons is to allow all kinds of
> experimentation and customization of the browser to meet individual needs and
> desires.
> 

It's hard to say the amount of people who would find useful this dictionary. We
might try to look up the electoral results of the far-right party Coalición
Valenciana (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalici%C3%B3n_Valenciana) -some info
in Spanish-, that as far as I know is the most important party which support
these theses, but which presently has not any kind of representation in
Valencian parliament. 

> What kinds of protections do we want to provide for users?
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I mentioned the security and privacy areas above, but I don't these come into
> play in this discussion.
> 
> We want users to have some understanding of what they are getting when the
> download an addon, and that they have a way to share feedback with other users.
> 
> Some claim were made by Tony that some users are confused and disappointed by
> installation of this addon.
> 
> > Nowadays it's producing confusion to a vast majority of people who search for a dictionary and is actually enraging many others as they understand.
> 
> Again, I'm very interest in trying to get data that shows this is a problem,
> and in solutions that help to remove any confusion that users might have about
> what they are downloading and installing before they make the choice to get
> this addon.
> 

I've included enough information so you can make an opinion why this a thorny
issue. And I suggested a solution as well above.

> All the data that we have so far seems to indicate that the average user that
> downloads has a positive rating of the extension.
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3790#reviews
> 
> Its also clear that reviews tend to be at either end of the voting spectrum
> just like we might expect with something so disputed.
> 
> The 5000 total downloads seems to support the idea that there is a limited
> number of people using the extension, and with that limited use there might not
> actually be that many people that are confused by what they are getting.
> 

Some comments and reviews have been made by supporters of these political
views. I suppose many of them have been asked to do so as a part of a mailing
campaign. 
Present situation is, from my point of view as long time contributor, such a
shame and I think that can lead to such a deep refuse of Mozilla work from
users' point of view in my country, that I would actually prefer that to be
known the less the better. I have already received users messages complaining
about present situation and saying that they would even stop using Firefox
because they consider that having that addon in that language list is a explicit support to blaverist points of view.

Best regards,

Comment 15

[Quim Perez]

Let me show some facts 

** This is not a problem between Catalan people (north of spain) and Valencian people (east of spain). Many Catalan people know very few about this problem. But all the complains we receive about this dictionary is from our valencian users.  


** Legally Catalan and Valencian are the same language, so do not waste more time with this discussion  

- The sentence 75/1997 issued by the Spanish Constitutional Court on March 27, 1997. Say that "Valencian language" can also be named "Catalan language" http://www.avl.gva.es/premsa.asp?id=128

- In 2004 the EU states that the Catalan and Valencian versions of the European Constitution were identical. You can verify this in European Union portal http://europa.eu/abouteuropa/faq/q10b/index_en.htm

- On May 2006 The Spanish Supreme Court recognises that Catalan and Valencian are the same language http://www.ciemen.org/mercator/notidetail.cfm?IDA=890&lg=gb

- On August 10, 2007, in reply to a blaverist demand, a different SIL code for val as different from ca was rejected [5] by the International Organization for Standardization, with the reasoning that "language identifiers are not language abbreviations". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencian

- The official and state-bound entity created to regulate Valencian orthography Academia Valenciana de la Llengua (AVL) does state that Catalan and Valencian are the same language, and the standard taught by public educative institutions such as schools or universities does follow the AVL rules 

- See also Álvaro Martínez Majado comment #11


** But Mozilla has nothing to do with all this, Mozilla doesn't put any constraint on the content of addons. So Bernat can have his own non-official valencian dictionary with his own rules (RACV), see comment #3. Ant it is as easy as to add a comment telling that "This is not an official Valencian dictionary. The official Valencian dictionary is there (URL)".


** Mozilla has support for fictious languages as Klingon (see bugg 239977), but this dictionary is something different. It's like Valencian text writed by a Spanish writer. It's like someone writes in English using Spanish rules: "hellou mai neim is Joaquim" in state of "hello my name is Joaquim". 

Comment 16

[chris hofmann]

From comment 13:

> As I explained in the other openend bug, I only suggested that Mozilla should
follow academic criteria when dealing with linguistic issues, shouldn't it?

In comment 9 about the design and guiding phylosphy behind Firefox and the Addon site and hoped to explain that we have widely different criteria and goals that are part of our design and branding.

We (Axel as module owner and peers that advise) do use academic criteria in deciding on the suitability, quality, and accuracy of localized versions that we publish on the Mozilla site and allow to be associated with the Firefox brand (these localizations http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/all.html ).  These are the set of localizations that get a lot of testing and scrutiny before they are allow to ship as part of any "offical" release and use Mozilla and Firefox branding and trademarks.

On the other hand we have treated *all* of the addon site (including dictionaries and language packs) as an area for experimentation, expression and innovation.

If we begin to set up rules and policies for any of the site, and then have to establish a bureaucracy to enforce these rules and policies.   We slowly eat away at the expression, creativity, and innovation that we hope to enable on the site.

An example of this the rule you suggested:

> If this addon is to be in addons site, at least should not be not in any
language section or langpack and dictionary list.

To set up and enforce this rule we need some one to review dictionaries and lang packs for linguistic content and academic support before we allow them to be uploaded to the lang pack and dictionary page, and a bunch of process and web content changes to handle these dictionaries and lang packs.  We believe this kind of work and scrutity is better focused on the many other areas that help to improve the core product.

Just to be clear, I think we would allow a pig latin or klingon dictionary to appear on the dictionary page should someone submit that work for review and upload.   Mozilla might do this not because we think those things are necessarily valuable, but we would do this because we don't want a lot of policy and rules that might stiffle other innovation and expression or remove focus from other areas that we think are critical.  

We want the browser to be extended in thousands of different ways and then let users choose which ways to customize are most important.  A light weight process for publishing content on the addons site is a key part of this goal.

As members of the Mozilla community I hope that we can all agree on this important point and take on responsibility to explain it to others that might be confused or misunderstand.

Toni,  you also made the point

> Present situation is, from my point of view as long time contributor, such a
shame and I think that can lead to such a deep refuse of Mozilla work from
users' point of view in my country, that I would actually prefer that to be
known the less the better.

As a valued member of the Mozilla community I hope you share our commitment to experimentation, innovation, and expression and see the clear need for this in all the work that we do and especially on the addons site.  I hope this is an overriding goal of why you want to participate and be associated with the project.  I hope that when people come to you that you can explain what we are trying to achieve with Firefox as a core product, and what we are trying to achieve with the addon site as a vehicle for innovation.

You also made the point 

> I have already received users messages complaining about present situation and saying that they would even stop using Firefox because they consider that having that addon in that language list is a explicit support to blaverist points of view.

I hope you can help these users to understand that very little on the addon site is "explicitly supported or endorsed" by Mozilla.  It's an area for experimentation, innovation, and expression.  In some cases there is the possibility that "crazy ideas" are published on the site.  Setting up and enforcing policies, rules, censorship of addon content works against the main goal of creativity and expression.   We depend on users of the addon site to make choices that are suitable and useful to them.  We also depend on members of the community and users and engage in work that helps others to understand the addons that are offered so they can make the right choices thought the comment and voting mechanisms on the site.

Let me know if there is anything that I, or others on the project, can do to help you explain this to the users that are approaching you.

Comment 17

[chris hofmann]

****,  your comment 15

> * But Mozilla has nothing to do with all this, Mozilla doesn't put any
constraint on the content of addons. So Bernat can have his own non-official
valencian dictionary with his own rules (RACV), see comment #3. Ant it is as
easy as to add a comment telling that "This is not an official Valencian
dictionary. The official Valencian dictionary is there (URL)".

is a good short summary of how I think we should proceed.  I think the other parts of what you wrote in comment 13 might also be good things to summarize and to add to the comment section of the addon to help users make the right choices.

Comment 18

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #17)
> ****,  your comment 15
> 
> > * But Mozilla has nothing to do with all this, Mozilla doesn't put any
> constraint on the content of addons. So Bernat can have his own non-official
> valencian dictionary with his own rules (RACV), see comment #3. Ant it is as
> easy as to add a comment telling that "This is not an official Valencian
> dictionary. The official Valencian dictionary is there (URL)".
> 
> is a good short summary of how I think we should proceed.

I don't like this description as it isn't clear what "official" means. It would be understood as "this is the bad one, the good one is ...". That isn't descriptive, it's rather prescriptive.

It would be more useful having something more descriptive that mentions the source and normative academy, RACV. That would really help the user selection.

Comment 19

[chris hofmann]

I agree.  Let's work out a description that is descriptive.

Comment 20

[Xavi Ivars]

Bernat, I think the description is very clear. And official means that, official.

Look at sixth article from Estatut d'Autonomia (for non-Spanish people, those are like "Constitutions" of autonomous regions of Spain: the highest level law in the region).

http://www.rlgv.gva.es/almacenes/resultados/index.htm?no_cache=1&L=1&user_rlgv_pi_search_page[lstUIDs]=25&user_rlgv_pi_search_page[uidDisp]=25

6.2 Valencian language is the official language in the "Comunitat Valenciana", as Spanish, that is the official language of the State.
6.6 The Valencian Academy of Language is the normative institution of the Valencian Language.

So, its clear that if your extension does not follow the official normative of a language, it can't represent the "official" language.

Chris, you say on #16 that we would allow a Klingon dictionary in AMO. That's right, but would you allow a PigLatin dictionary that is described as "This addon uses the authentic English, spoken in all England."?

I think anyone from here is against the Addon itself, neither against Bernat. We just want that something that is not "valencian" announces itself as "valencian", because it's not.

PS: I'm valencian (I live in southern Comunitat Valenciana), I've studied at school, high school, and university in Valencian, and I'm sure that this addon does not convert Firefox to Valencian.

Comment 21

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

I want to note the following:

* Description of addons. I think that addon can remain in the site, but there should be proper descriptions so users cannot be deceived. If you search some conbinations of "Catalan" or "Valencian" (in local languages as well), among the search results you see that extension, but it's hard for users to guess at first that is not a fake Valencian one. Many users do not know what RACV is for instance and so they can be easily tricked. 
If you enter in the description page of the blaverist langpack , presently there is a somewhat derogatory description as Xavi has also pointed out.

* Language packs and dictionaries list. From a user's perspective, the point is that list is heavily accessed from within Firefox and Thunderbird, more than other options such as addon browsing. Users want to get there a proper language and spelling support, not trying out things, which they might prefer to do when searching addons site. That's the reason I opened the other bug. I don't think that list should be populated with content that may be regarded as confusing and no functional at all in linguistic terms. I don't think it's such a big work reviewing this, as I explain in the other bug, and technically is fully possible.

Comment 22

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #20)
> 
> Chris, you say on #16 that we would allow a Klingon dictionary in AMO. That's
> right, but would you allow a PigLatin dictionary that is described as "This
> addon uses the authentic English, spoken in all England."?
> 
> I think anyone from here is against the Addon itself, neither against Bernat.
> We just want that something that is not "valencian" announces itself as
> "valencian", because it's not.
> 

I'd hope you hadn't anything against me really, but calling me a lier and suggesting that I'm evil trying to fool Mozilla Foundation isn't the best treatment I could get from all of you. I deserve some respect.

I've proved there's academic and official endorsement for the valencian normative used in my dictionary, so I think it's clear I'm not making things up. So stop comparisons with Klingon or PigLatin.

I can provide you a lot of books and writings references that are published and  can benefit from these tools. The fact that this books and documents are categorized wrongly and confusingly as catalan doesn't change the fact that they are written using RACV normative.

> PS: I'm valencian (I live in southern Comunitat Valenciana), I've studied at
> school, high school, and university in Valencian, and I'm sure that this addon
> does not convert Firefox to Valencian.
> 

Does it mean you're the first valencian writing in this bug besides me?

I'm concerned that all complaints have gone to Toni, and none to me, the valencian addon maintainer. Were this users really confused and they all and went directly to the catalan maintainer? I haven't received a single question or complain, this is strange.

I guess you meant you're sure this addon doesn't convert Firefox to Catalan, since you think valencian=catalan, it makes sense to me. I accept and respect you think that, I'd like you respect I think different.

Comment 23

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #22)
> (In reply to comment #20)
> > 
> > Chris, you say on #16 that we would allow a Klingon dictionary in AMO. That's
> > right, but would you allow a PigLatin dictionary that is described as "This
> > addon uses the authentic English, spoken in all England."?
> > 
> > I think anyone from here is against the Addon itself, neither against Bernat.
> > We just want that something that is not "valencian" announces itself as
> > "valencian", because it's not.
> > 
> 
> I'd hope you hadn't anything against me really, but calling me a lier and
> suggesting that I'm evil trying to fool Mozilla Foundation isn't the best
> treatment I could get from all of you. I deserve some respect.
> 
> I've proved there's academic and official endorsement for the valencian
> normative used in my dictionary, so I think it's clear I'm not making things
> up. So stop comparisons with Klingon or PigLatin.
> 
> I can provide you a lot of books and writings references that are published and
>  can benefit from these tools. The fact that this books and documents are
> categorized wrongly and confusingly as catalan doesn't change the fact that
> they are written using RACV normative.
> 

Bernat, local people as us know all the historical and socio-political issues behind all this. As we all know, there were even sadly violent episodes around. Foreign people do not know all this or sometimes do not have enough information to understand what is happening.
I know you have your own political ideas and support language secessionism, but you cannot pretend to show a distorted reality of Valencian society and language. I roughly pointed above who support these positions, and me and several other people have included links to official institutions such AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es) dependent on Valencian Government (http://www.gva.es). So I think that point is firm enough. 

> > PS: I'm valencian (I live in southern Comunitat Valenciana), I've studied at
> > school, high school, and university in Valencian, and I'm sure that this addon
> > does not convert Firefox to Valencian.
> > 
> 
> Does it mean you're the first valencian writing in this bug besides me?
> 
> I'm concerned that all complaints have gone to Toni, and none to me, the
> valencian addon maintainer. Were this users really confused and they all and
> went directly to the catalan maintainer? I haven't received a single question
> or complain, this is strange.

I did not receive it myself, but Softcatalà (http://www.softcatala.org). Since we translate many of open-source software, and one of our aims is taking care and promoting our language in Internet (http://www.softcatala.org/wiki/Qui_som), many users from all the Catalan-speaking territories contact us.
On the other hand, you already have some reviews and commentaries complaining about the langpack in Addons site. In any case, if you receive any email from people who contacted us directly, you know perfectly you are not going to read nice words.

Comment 24

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #23)
> 
> Bernat, local people as us know all the historical and socio-political issues
> behind all this. As we all know, there were even sadly violent episodes around.
> Foreign people do not know all this or sometimes do not have enough information
> to understand what is happening.
> I know you have your own political ideas and support language secessionism, but
> you cannot pretend to show a distorted reality of Valencian society and
> language. I roughly pointed above who support these positions, and me and
> several other people have included links to official institutions such AVL
> (http://www.avl.gva.es) dependent on Valencian Government (http://www.gva.es).
> So I think that point is firm enough. 
> 

This is ridiculous. Should I let you speak on my behalf? Or can I have a voice?

I'm pretty disgusted you're using this bug to defame me, I really hope you had some other way to support your ideas.

> 
> I did not receive it myself, but Softcatalà (http://www.softcatala.org). Since
> we translate many of open-source software, and one of our aims is taking care
> and promoting our language in Internet
> (http://www.softcatala.org/wiki/Qui_som), many users from all the
> Catalan-speaking territories contact us.

Comments in the review area don't express any confusion, they just complain the same as you. I expected people's questions.

> On the other hand, you already have some reviews and commentaries complaining
> about the langpack in Addons site. In any case, if you receive any email from
> people who contacted us directly, you know perfectly you are not going to read
> nice words.
> 

Ok, they better get some education before contacting me.

Comment 25

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

Bernat, I don't pretend to defame you. If instead of you, the exact addon was made by another person, it would be the same, since the problem is not you but the extension, as Xavi commented.

Comment 26

[Xavi Ivars]

Bernat, I never tried to say you are a lier. If you understood that, excuse me. What I say is that the addon you've made (I have nothing against it) can't have in its description "el autentic valencia", and that you say "official Valencian" or "valencià oficial" is not a clear concept.

The only thing I tried to prove was that "official Valencian" should be a clear concept, because it is described by de AVL (according to the Estatut d'Autonomia) and your addons does not follow its rules (ortography,grammar,accentuation,...). So that's my only complain.

Comment 27

[chris hofmann]

Toni,

You made two comments that are not making sense to me.  Can you help to clearify?

> Bernat, local people as us know all the historical and socio-political issues
behind all this.

> Many users do not know what RACV is for instance and so they can be easily tricked. 

From discussion and reading I have been assuming more of former given the passion on all sides of this debate.  I have been assuming that people in the region *do* know about the works of the RACV, and that *can* help them in decision making about installing the extra dictionary.   I think we have to assume that unless we can estalish otherwise or find data that a substantial number of users are confused about what they are getting.

You also made a comment about the idea on setting up a review process for dictionaries and lanuguage packs.

> I don't think it's such a big work reviewing this, as I explain in the other bug, and technically is fully possible.

Several people have spent several days now reviewing this one dictionary and I'm increasingly frustrated that we are not getting to common agreement.  Don't say this is an easy job or not a big amount of work to research each of the proposed dictionaries, or language packs for their content, their linguistics, and their academic and political background.   I know how big a job this is for the 45+ worldwide langauges we ship as part of every release of Firefox.  I know how big a job it will be to set up a linguistic review process on the add on site for the 100+ languages that we might support thought that site.  This issues become more thorny as we extend out languages that are used by fewer people, not easier, as this bug demonstrates.

I want this bug to stay focused on the description of Bernat's dictionary that will be posted along with the addon.  As far as I can see we have common agreement and understanding about what the addon site is intended to be, and that Bernat's addon fits within that framework.

Xavi,  On your comment:

> ...would you allow a PigLatin dictionary that is described as "This addon uses the authentic English, spoken in all England."?

I don't see any proposed short description of Bernat's addon that says "spoken in *all* Valencia."

The current description says:

WARNING:
This extension uses the authentic valencian language spoken in Valencia and regulated by the Royal Academy of Valencian Culture, but it's not the currently official one. If you're looking for a catalan/valencian translation as promoted by the Valencian Academy of Language, please, go to the Firefox official translations page.

Lets keep the discussion focused on specific modifications to this short summary or proposals for the short summary the addon.  

Lets get to common agreement quickly on this so we can close out this bug.   

Lets move additional detailed commentary on the historical, linguistic, academic, and political aspects to the addon comments site where it will be more useful to anyone trying to figure out whether this addon might be useful to them.

Comment 28

[Eduard Gamonal]

Attachment: Screenshot - catalan and spanish description

Since not everybody can speak the language of this add-on page, please let me translate its description:
Please, note that it's different from #27.

Original: (available in Spanish too)
Descripció llarga

ADVERTENCIA:
Esta extensión usa el auténtico valenciano hablado en Valencia y regulado por la Real Academia de Cultura Valenciana, pero no se corresponde con el actualmente oficial. Si buscas un diccionario catalán/valenciano tal como lo promueve la Academia Valenciana de la Lengua, desconocemos si existe.
----
ADVERTÈNCIA:
Esta extensió utilisa l'autèntic valencià parlat en Valéncia i regulat per la Real Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana, pero no es correspon en el actualment oficial. Si lo que busques és un diccionari català/valencià tal com el promou la Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua, desconeixem si existix.

Translation into English:
This extension uses the authentic Valencian spoken in València and regulated by Real Acadèmia de la Cultura Valenciana, but doesn't match the currently official one. If what you are looking for is a Catalan/Valencian dictionary as Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua promotes, we don't know whether it exists.


---
This means that RACV regulates the «real» Valencian, although we reported some links to official (that is: Government related and endorsed) sites that say the contrary. 
This is not a fair or proper description and *it's different* from the translation chris hofmann is providing in #27 (published while I am writing that).
Note that sometimes we say Valencia for the whole region, instead of referring only to a city. Officialy, the region is called Comunitat Valenciana.

Comment 29

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #27)
> Toni,
> 
> You made two comments that are not making sense to me.  Can you help to
> clearify?
> 
> > Bernat, local people as us know all the historical and socio-political issues
> behind all this.
> 
> > Many users do not know what RACV is for instance and so they can be easily tricked. 
> 
> From discussion and reading I have been assuming more of former given the
> passion on all sides of this debate.  I have been assuming that people in the
> region *do* know about the works of the RACV, and that *can* help them in
> decision making about installing the extra dictionary.   I think we have to
> assume that unless we can estalish otherwise or find data that a substantial
> number of users are confused about what they are getting.
> 

The point is that most people in Valencian region do not know RACV and can be unaware of all the polemics and politics behind all this. Since it defines itself as a academy, it leads to confusion with official Academy: AVL. 
At most they know there are some groups that actively defend that Valencian is not Catalan. 
However this polemics is more often centered on the name than in the very norm used, which is globally accepted.
The most accurate data I can offer is electoral results of the parties that defend these ideas:

http://www.cadenaser.com/especial/elecciones-generales/congreso/autonomia/Comunidad-Valenciana/17

The most important ones: Formerly UV, now extinct, and now CVa


> You also made a comment about the idea on setting up a review process for
> dictionaries and lanuguage packs.
> 
> > I don't think it's such a big work reviewing this, as I explain in the other bug, and technically is fully possible.
> 
> Several people have spent several days now reviewing this one dictionary and
> I'm increasingly frustrated that we are not getting to common agreement.  Don't
> say this is an easy job or not a big amount of work to research each of the
> proposed dictionaries, or language packs for their content, their linguistics,
> and their academic and political background.   I know how big a job this is for
> the 45+ worldwide langauges we ship as part of every release of Firefox.  I
> know how big a job it will be to set up a linguistic review process on the add
> on site for the 100+ languages that we might support thought that site.  This
> issues become more thorny as we extend out languages that are used by fewer
> people, not easier, as this bug demonstrates.
> 

I rectify. You are right. That's not an easy task. As you can understand, I proposed this because I'm simply anxious about the consequences it might have and I will have to devote extra voluntary time myself to explain users that may complain about all this. 
Do you suggest me I should forward the to add comments to the addon?
I can understand we may not have resources to improve this situation now, but I consider, if ever possible in the future, this should be addressed.

> I want this bug to stay focused on the description of Bernat's dictionary that
> will be posted along with the addon.  As far as I can see we have common
> agreement and understanding about what the addon site is intended to be, and
> that Bernat's addon fits within that framework.
> 

We will work on it. I hope all the reviewers may have now enough information to known what the issue is about.

Comment 30

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #27)

> I don't see any proposed short description of Bernat's addon that says "spoken
> in *all* Valencia."

Just a remark. Valencia can have two meanings: Valencia city and Valencian region (officialy know as Comunitat Valenciana). 

Comment 31

[chris hofmann]

>  I proposed this because I'm simply anxious about the consequences it might have and I will have to devote extra voluntary time myself to explain users that may complain about all this. 

Yes, I would encourage users to take their comments to the addons site, and share with other users that are considering downloading and installing this specific addon.  

I've also suggested that I can be of assistance in helping people understand the general framework and goals for the addons site.  I hope that we can all  explain our desire to promote innovation and expression, with the knowledge that sometimes we will create the side effect of individuals and groups be offended by the works of other individual and groups.  

Comment 32

[chris hofmann]

I also wanted to note new changes to the addons site that were recently published

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browse/type:3

now links to the information page about dictionaries and lang packs, instead of linking directly to the .xpi for the addon.

If there was any confusion in the past, this should help to reduce it.  Its now more critial than ever to give people the information they need in the short summary and user comments so they can determine if any particular dictionary or language pack is the right choice for them.

I hope we can get everyone thinking about how to tweak the existing description to improve it, or suggest alturnatives, over the weekend, and we can get an update published soon.   We also need to make sure that all three versions of the descriptions on the addon site (en, es, and ca) stay in sync with the spirit of the text in the short description as Eduard points out in comment 28

Comment 33

[Bernat]

Eduard, the differences you've noted between versions are totally unintentional. It was my mistake since I updated one of them and forgot the other.

The explanation as to why I'm saying that I don't know if there exists a dictionary for AVL normative is simple. The AVL has been making some changes to their normative accepting more valencian words, usually they do that in election campaign. Someone told me that these particularities were not accepted by your dictionary since it follows IEC's rules.

I'm not sure that's currently true, I won't debate on that since I'm not following your work closely. By the way, people usually knows and mentions the AVL just because their famous report against independency of valencian, but their normative is generally ignored in favor of the IEC one. So I'm willing to change that sentence to refer to your dictionary.

--

The AVL was created in 1998 and it's known mainly because all the polemics that have surrounded it since its creation. Last time, even partidaries of catalan rised their voice against it. Everything else has been already said by others.

The RACV was created in 1915, and it doesn't just have a valencian language department, it does a lot more activities in several other areas of cultura and knowledge, courses, conferences, etc. (f.e. the last International Congress on Geomatic & Surveying Enginering was held there). It's also one of the associated academies to the "Instituto de España" (http://www.insde.es/) endorsed by the Education and Science Ministery of Spain. If any valencian doesn't know about the RACV, it should.

I still think the best approach is mentioning the source, I suggest something like:
catalan/valencian - "Following IEC/AVL normative".
valencian - "Following RACV normative".

If someone knows just one of these academies, they will surely select the one they know. If they know both they will decide based on their knowledge and their needs. If they know none of them they can look out for info or just try both addons and choose freely.

I think this is the most neutral and informational approach.

As for tweaking the description written by me, I absolutely agree, but we should reach consensus. I'd hope Eduard would have told me before about the inconsistency and I would have fixed it, maybe he's just found it out now, that's no problem. I just won't like negative or devaluating descriptions attached to our addons.

Comment 34

[Quim Perez]

I agree with Toni, people in the street don't know what RACV and AVL is. But they know what is blaverism and anticatalanism (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverismo). 

Bernat, if you want to explain what RACV is, you should link to  http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV. It clarifies what RACV is nowadays. 

My proposal:

WARNING
This extension uses a non-official Valencian normative regulated
by RACV (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV). If you are looking for the official Valencian dictionary use this (...).

****

Comment 35

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

I agree with Quim.

And in dictionary list page:

Non-official RACV Valencian (Valencià no oficial de la RACV)

(In reply to comment #34)
> I agree with Toni, people in the street don't know what RACV and AVL is. But
> they know what is blaverism and anticatalanism
> (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverismo). 
> 
> Bernat, if you want to explain what RACV is, you should link to 
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV. It clarifies what RACV is nowadays. 
> 
> My proposal:
> 
> WARNING
> This extension uses a non-official Valencian normative regulated
> by RACV (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV). If you are looking for the
> official Valencian dictionary use this (...).
> 

Comment 36

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #34)
> I agree with Toni, people in the street don't know what RACV and AVL is. But
> they know what is blaverism and anticatalanism
> (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverismo). 
> 

People should know what AVL and RACV are.

They don't need to know what blaverism and catalanism is, and even when they do they will have varying concepts since they are polemic definitions, and they're sometimes used despectively.

> Bernat, if you want to explain what RACV is, you should link to 
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV. It clarifies what RACV is nowadays. 
> 

No, again, please don't tell how I have to explain myself. The Wikipedia has the opinions of a group of people that has a biased opinion towards this topic.

> My proposal:
> 
> WARNING
> This extension uses a non-official Valencian normative regulated
> by RACV (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV). If you are looking for the
> official Valencian dictionary use this (...).

It's totally unacceptable linking to the wikipedia when the RACV has his own webpage, http://racv.es . This web is also linked from the Instituto de España web, http://insde.es , under Academias Asociadas.

(In reply to comment #35)
> I agree with ****.
> 
> And in dictionary list page:
> 
> Non-official RACV Valencian (Valencià no oficial de la RACV)
> 

That's what I find confusing, this is the RACV official normative, they have no other. Besides, any valencian can use this normative for anything like it was official, I do. By the way, books written in this normative are used in some schools too as they can't be prohibited.

The AVL normative can just be inforced for administration's public documents, so it's official but it can't be forced  for everyone and every use.

I would put the two descriptive lines I propose above in the main dictionary list, and this description in our valencian addons:

"This extension uses valencian as regulated by the Royal Academy of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es) based on true language spoken in Valencian Region. This might be not appropiated in some cases for some administrative employees because they're forced to use the AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/) that is covered by this (...)".

I can't think of a more informational and true description, that I think it would help users a lot in determining what's what they're looking for in the cases where they don't know.

Comment 37

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #36)
> (In reply to comment #34)
> > I agree with Toni, people in the street don't know what RACV and AVL is. But
> > they know what is blaverism and anticatalanism
> > (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverismo). 
> > 
> 
> People should know what AVL and RACV are.
> 
> They don't need to know what blaverism and catalanism is, and even when they do
> they will have varying concepts since they are polemic definitions, and they're
> sometimes used despectively.
> 
> > Bernat, if you want to explain what RACV is, you should link to 
> > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV. It clarifies what RACV is nowadays. 
> > 
> 
> No, again, please don't tell how I have to explain myself. The Wikipedia has
> the opinions of a group of people that has a biased opinion towards this topic.
> 
> > My proposal:
> > 
> > WARNING
> > This extension uses a non-official Valencian normative regulated
> > by RACV (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV). If you are looking for the
> > official Valencian dictionary use this (...).
> 
> It's totally unacceptable linking to the wikipedia when the RACV has his own
> webpage, http://racv.es . This web is also linked from the Instituto de España
> web, http://insde.es , under Academias Asociadas.
> 
> (In reply to comment #35)
> > I agree with Quim.
> > 
> > And in dictionary list page:
> > 
> > Non-official RACV Valencian (Valencià no oficial de la RACV)
> > 
> 
> That's what I find confusing, this is the RACV official normative, they have no
> other. Besides, any valencian can use this normative for anything like it was
> official, I do. By the way, books written in this normative are used in some
> schools too as they can't be prohibited.
> 
> The AVL normative can just be inforced for administration's public documents,
> so it's official but it can't be forced  for everyone and every use.
> 
> I would put the two descriptive lines I propose above in the main dictionary
> list, and this description in our valencian addons:
> 
> "This extension uses valencian as regulated by the Royal Academy of Valencian
> Culture (http://racv.es) based on true language spoken in Valencian Region.
> This might be not appropiated in some cases for some administrative employees
> because they're forced to use the AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/) that
> is covered by this (...)".
> 
> I can't think of a more informational and true description, that I think it
> would help users a lot in determining what's what they're looking for in the
> cases where they don't know.
> 

Bernat,

I think Quim and me have proposed quite a neutral explanation, just stating that is non-official (not used by administrations, universities, schools and most people) and who are the responsible authors (RACV). We have avoided to include in any other considerations.

On the other hand, your description is rather derogatory, since you are writing words such as "true language" or "forced".

Comment 38

[chris hofmann]

I'd like to put out a proposal.

I think that the terms offical/non-offical and true/forced are the last area of dispute.

How about if we just removed modifiers from the text?

Based on Bernat's proposal the suggested modification would look something like this:

"This extension uses valencian as regulated by the Royal Academy of Valencian
Culture (http://racv.es) based on language spoken in Valencian Region.
This [dictionary] might be not appropriate for administrative employees using the AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/) that
is covered by this (...)".


Would it also be correct to say:

   "based on language spoken by [some users] in the Valencian Region."

since some of the data we have looked at indicates usage is not universal?

Thanks to everyone that continues to work in a positive way to help bring us to a good solution.  I really appreciate the effort that people are putting into this.   I think we are getting close.

Comment 39

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #38)

> Would it also be correct to say:
> 
>    "based on language spoken by [some users] in the Valencian Region."
> 

Chris, people who would use that dictionary, if they speak Valencian, do it in the same way as the people who from the same region that do not. They simple want to use their writing system, because of the given political reasons explained above. 

In order to avoid any kind of confusion, and minimizing any misunderstanding, I would not omit the "non-official" term, which I think it's not derogatory but the simple common day reality in administration, schools, universities, and most individual and companies. I would support Quim proposal since it is fair enough.

Thank you.

Comment 40

[chris hofmann]

I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that Bernat's use of "offical" relates to the fact that this is the "offical work or statement of the RACV", and your suggestion for "non-offical" marking relates to use in governnment adminstration, schools, and universities.

I agree that official means "for use in governnment adminstration, schools, and universities, but it also means many more things.  See "Official as an adjective"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official

Unless we want to be explicit about each of these possible uses and meanings of "offical" and "non-offical", and how it applies to the dictionary then it would be better to just remove it.  Its possible that we might need to do this to add clearity, but I also think that it would make the "short description" very long winded.  This is why I suggested that we just remove the modifiers "offical/non-offical."

Comment 41

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

Chris, if a long description is an issue I would use "Non-official Valencian" - (Valencià no oficial).
Simply using RACV or similar identifiers are not informative enough, as we have explained, and other terms such as secessionist, blaverist, etc., may be regarded as offensive.

(In reply to comment #40)
> I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that Bernat's use of "offical" relates to the
> fact that this is the "offical work or statement of the RACV", and your
> suggestion for "non-offical" marking relates to use in governnment
> adminstration, schools, and universities.
> 
> I agree that official means "for use in governnment adminstration, schools, and
> universities, but it also means many more things.  See "Official as an
> adjective"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official
> 
> Unless we want to be explicit about each of these possible uses and meanings of
> "offical" and "non-offical", and how it applies to the dictionary then it would
> be better to just remove it.  Its possible that we might need to do this to add
> clearity, but I also think that it would make the "short description" very long
> winded.  This is why I suggested that we just remove the modifiers
> "offical/non-offical."
> 

Comment 42

[Pere Pasqual]

Hi all,

I've been following this discussion. First of all, I am Valencian, and I have to say I FEEL ASHAMED to see how, from time to time, this issue surfaces up 

again and again by the same people, giving a pathetic image of us to the world and spending valous time and resources in this stupid question, which could be 

employed in more productive things.

Just want to clarify some "half-truths" and misconceptions Bernardo has said in their previous messages, which I suppose he has made purposely:

"This dictionary follows the works of the Real Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana,
their own openoffice dictionary is available here
(http://llenguavalenciana.com). As you can see at the bottom of the page, it's
endorsed by the valencian governement (Generalitat Valenciana) and the county
council (Diputació de Valéncia) too"

Hey, have you taken a look at what the Spanish Wikipedia says about the RACV?
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV

"Most of its public relevance is due to its relation with Valencian. They defenses the opinion, nowadays descarted as by official instances as by most of the 

'academic world', that Valencian is a different language than Catalan".

It is interesting to note that the RACV, since it was founded in 1915, has used different ways of writting valencian. Before 1981 they didn't have any 

distinctive method of writting it. In 1981 they assumed the "Normes del Puig", basicly a way of writting valencian based in phonetic pronnounciation of the 

city of Valencia area. In 2003 they switched again the way they were writting "their valencian", in a kind of mixture between the "Puig" way and the official 

(AVL) one. That's not serious.

He states "it's endorsed by te valencian government and the county council"... based in that the link he provided us includes images of the logo of those 

institutions. But he writes "Diputació de Valéncia" (as written in his dictionary)... when you can constate, just by clicking on the link, that the correct 

name of the institution is "Diputació de València" (look at this link and see the logo: http://www.dival.es/isum/Main?lang=va).


"On the academic side, it's true that academic documents are very alike, that's
because the "Linguistic Normalization and Promotion Area"
(http://www.upv.es/entidades/APNL/indexv.html/) reviews and modifies all
documents published in valencian at universities so they follow catalan
normative as closest as possible. University professors have united forming the
Colectiu Fullana (http://www.cfullana.org/) to protect his rights when
publishing, but since a few years ago they must accept that policy or they must
publish on they own paying the expenses themselves."

I was a scholar on that Area. It provides, among other purposes, free translation to Valencian (Valencian version of catalan) 
of academic texts. It also corrects texts already in Valencian of teachers who submitt their work to them to do that. We only corrected typos or wrong words, 

not "follow catalan normative as closest as possible". In fact, that phrase is a contradiction by itself since valencian is (a dialect of) catalan, thus the 

same language. 

While I was working there, some day we started getting complaints of students by email about a book belonging to the Valencian collection of books published 

by the Universitat Politècnica de València. People stated it was FULL of typos and very poorly written. After many complaints were collected, the APNL, after 

consulting the chancellor of the University, retired the book and proceeded to correct is, as this departament was created in the purpose, among other 

reasons, of correcting any text in Valencian issued by the university. So the Linguistic Normalization and Promotion Area merely accomplished with its work.

It's interesting to note that the book was very poorly written. It would include many words that would actually be marked as incorrect even in Bernardo's 

dictionary.

I have no evidence of any other book retired, appart from that one, in the collection of books in Valencian issued by the Universitat Politècnica de 

València, which includes hundreds, if not thousands, of books.

I challenge Bernardo to tell us of any book he knows "censored" by the APNL.

About "Colectiu Fullana": in the address Bernardo has provided us, there is a section labeled "members" (http://www.cfullana.org/membres.htm). You can see 

that this "organization" has, literally, FOUR members. Of these members, 2 belong to PRIVATE universities and ONLY TWO to PUBLIC Spanish universities. We 

have FIVE public universities in the Land of Valencia (please take in consideration that the vast majority of students in Spain go to public universities and 

that these ones are the only ones which have some degree of prestigy). So we get 3 of 5 public universities doesn't have representation on the "Colectiu 

Fullana". Interestingly, the 2 belonging to the private ones don't belong to any department, so we presume they don't publish (remember Bernardo said 

"University professors have united forming the
Colectiu Fullana to protect his rights when publishing"). The two who can publish belong to departments not related to language in any manner (one belongs to 

Department of Mathematics and the other to Ginecology). Moreover, the last one provides us with a link to his personal page. We can take a look to it and 

discover that, appart from the title of the topics, all of the material he publishes IS NOT IN VALENCIAN, but in Spanish. That should be representative by 

itself.

As a last note/resume: we have determined there is only one member of the "Colectiu Fullana" in the Universitat Politècnica de València (which have thousands 

of teachers). I bet he is the one who wrote the "banned" book due to being poorly written. Maybe Bernardo could clarify on this one.

Oh, please note, also, the last activity from that "Colectiu" was reported on 2006; you can read it, again, on their own page.

"It would be more useful having something more descriptive that mentions the
source and normative academy, RACV. That would really help the user selection."
"I still think the best approach is mentioning the source, I suggest something
like:
catalan/valencian - "Following IEC/AVL normative".
valencian - "Following RACV normative"."
""This extension uses valencian as regulated by the Royal Academy of Valencian
Culture (http://racv.es) based on true language spoken in Valencian Region. This [dictionary] might be not appropriate for administrative employees using
the AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/) that
is covered by this (...)"

The RACV is not a "normative" nor "regulatory" academy. It doesn't have any "normative" nor "regulatory" autority. They can issue whatever they want, but it 

is not normative nor regulatory. As Xavi Ivars stated, as noted in the "Constitution" of our Autonomous Region, the normative institution is AVL. Period.

the AVL was founded about 10 years ago merely to explicitly end discussions on this issue. The decission was approved by the political parties that represent 

99% of the Valencian people. The 1% which disagree belongs only to that far right political party which doesn't have any political representation. Period. 

Besides that, if you are going to specify that "this might be not appropiate for administrative employees", then you should also especify "nor to students 

who need a valencian dicciontary to do they homework", since teachers would mark as "typos" a lot of the words in their writtings, or "nor to people who want 

to write a letter to the newspaper" or "who want to shoot a film for television", since it is not the "Valencian" teached in schools or the one used in the 

media.

My opinnion is this one should be REMOVED, and any other attempt of this people to submit their dictionary as a "legitimous" one should be ignored in the 

future. It does a bad favour to any attempt of promoting and normalizing our language. It confuses people. And it claims to be what it is not. It also would 

affect negatively the image of the Mozilla Foundation, as including this as an official extension would be something like including "slang" dictionaries.

Finally... It is easy to track the activities of Bernardo in the Internet: he is solely the only individual trying to endorse/promote these irregular 

"valencian" translations/dictionaries. If you Google and research a bit, you can find he had a similar argument with Winamp's mantainers some months ago, 

only to see hes "translation" removed after some discussion in the same terms as here. I think we are paying him more attention than he probably deserves.

Comment 43

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #42)

I don't know if I'm getting more attention than I deserve, but I know I'm getting more attention than I want. I'm simply a programmer with an interest in valencian culture and I didn't start this bug.

Someone who disqualifies anyone for writing/publishing their writings in spanish automatically is disqualifying himself, in my opinion. Feel ashamed because of this.

I'll add only one more thing to what I said before, no need to repeat everything else. If you read the members page you'll know it says this are contact members, one per university, total of 4, it's not all members. Maybe they've done that because listing all members could expose them to acts of vandalism to his persona or goods.

We aren't discussing here about censorhip in the university, but read this so you know where that info comes from:
http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/prensa/20080322/opinion/politica-llinguistica-llibertat-expressio-20080322.html

Note how this was published in a newspaper (media) dated 03/22/2008 and using valencian (RACV normative). So it is used in media, just like the AVL normative. Just so you see I'm not lying as some people here tries to fool the others to think.

(In reply to comment #38)
> Based on Bernat's proposal the suggested modification would look something like
> this:
> 
> "This extension uses valencian as regulated by the Royal Academy of Valencian
> Culture (http://racv.es) based on language spoken in Valencian Region.
> This [dictionary] might be not appropriate for administrative employees using
> the AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/) that
> is covered by this (...)".
> 

I think it's good like that, although I didn't see the use of "force" inappropriate.

> 
> Would it also be correct to say:
> 
>    "based on language spoken by [some users] in the Valencian Region."
> 
> since some of the data we have looked at indicates usage is not universal?
> 

I meant that RACV normative is based on language spoken here, contrary to AVL normative that is based on language spoken in the northwest of Catalonia.

Almost every valencian speaks valencian or spanish, even almost every valencian that writes in catalan also speaks valencian. This is a self forced diglossia since they couldn't communicate normally if they spoke catalan, or more specifically, the formal catalan used in writing. They hide this fact by saying everything is catalan, but they don't accept that much variance in writing. That's why we're discussing here.

Since this point might seem complicated to some of you and it might open some more controversy, I'm willing to renounce to this point in order to reach a better consensus.

Comment 44

[Bernat]

Sorry, I said northwest of Catalonia when I wanted to say northeast of Catalonia.

Comment 45

[Cédric Corazza]

Hi,
I'm not Spanish and I'm a long time contributor in Mozilla Project, but I'm disgusted, or to be soft, at least very disappointed, by the attitude of the MoCo representatives here.
I've been following this bug for a few days now, and the issue is really obvious here: this is an attempt from a small extremist group to spread its "ideas".
AFAIK, Mozilla relies on ISO normative organization, and Catalan == Valencian == Balear, which refers to http://www.avl.gva.es/ .
"As a valued member of the Mozilla community I hope you share our commitment to
experimentation, innovation, and expression..." (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=433465#c16).
I read carefully the Mozilla Manifesto and I also translated it, and I didn't read anything about something about "free expression".
What is outrageous here, is that the MoCo could give a free tribune here to political stuff.
This is definitely not the role of the MoCo imho. And this "stuff" (I mean the description of this pseudo-dictionary) should not remain here as is.
Regards

Comment 46

[chris hofmann]

Cédric,

> I'm disgusted, or to be soft, at least very disappointed, by the attitude of the MoCo representatives here.

I guess your talking about me exclusively, and the things I wrote in comment 16.  

I did not say that I personally endorsed this dictionary or that it should be interpreted by anyone that Moco, Mofo, or any contributor to the Mozilla project endorses this dictionary.

On the contrary, I made the point that very little on AMO site is endorsed by Moco, Mofo, or contributors to the Mozilla project.   I'm simply trying to resolve this bug and the issues around it in light of the systems and practices we have in place.  If there is anyone that thinks I have some kind of hidden agenda in contributing to a solution for this bug just say the word and I'll excuse myself and let others work toward resolution.

I made the statements in comment 16 based on the long standing principals that we used in the design of Firefox and the extension system.  I've been involved with both of those projects since they were first conceived, and I believe they accurately reflect the beliefs of many of the orginal contributors to those projects.  

The comments made there we not made in light of any official, or unofficial, Moco policy or anything written in the manifesto.   

The main point I was making is that we don't have any censorship policy for *any* of the content on the addon site.  We should not single out this dictionary for removal unless we do add a well defined and scoped censorship policy, a review process, and module owner or bureaucracy to enforce the policy.

I also expressed my personal belief that we should not have a censorship policy for addons.mozilla.org because of the long term impact I believe that it might have on innovation.  If you or anyone else following this bug strongly believes that we should have a censorship policy, and we should be censoring possibly this dictionary and other existing and future addons on amo, then I would encourage you to file another bug and make those recommendations there.

Comment 47

[chris hofmann]

From comment 45

> AFAIK, Mozilla relies on ISO normative organization,

I know that we rely on ISO to help in the defintion of locale names as in http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Simple_locale_names

but we explictly call out that its just a guideline that we use in helping to use standard names where possible, and there is the possibility that ISO may not help to cover all cases of dialects and other needs.

Is there other documentation or reference that indicates the ISO is our only source for decision making around Firefox or other project localizations?

I also made the point several times that a large amount of scrutiny goes into decision making around which localize versions of firefox that we ship as "offical" products.   We don't do as detailed a review and have criteria set up for dictionaries and language packs on AMO. 

Again, if you think that we we ought to have those kinds of systems in place for language packs and dictionaries on amo file another bug an make your suggestion on how we would get this work organized an accomplished.

Comment 48

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

(In reply to comment #45)
> AFAIK, Mozilla relies on ISO normative organization, and Catalan == Valencian
> == Balear, which refers to http://www.avl.gva.es/ .

Are you referring to the SIL document for http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/chg_detail.asp?id=2006-129&lang=vac here? If so, please reread that document, or at least the first two pages, as "Catalan == Valencian == Balear" is not what it says.

To the contrary, it does acknowledge dialectal variations. Just that the linguistic differences don't warrant a macrolanguage and primary subtags.


Regarding the claimed political aspects, we ignored those for Macedonian, Kurdish, Traditional Chinese, Nepali -- and those are just the ones where I know we did. The idea is that having any of these show up on a mozilla.org website would change the political setting of them is not realistic.

Comment 49

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #48)
> (In reply to comment #45)
> > AFAIK, Mozilla relies on ISO normative organization, and Catalan == Valencian
> > == Balear, which refers to http://www.avl.gva.es/ .
> 
> Are you referring to the SIL document for
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/chg_detail.asp?id=2006-129&lang=vac here? If so,
> please reread that document, or at least the first two pages, as "Catalan ==
> Valencian == Balear" is not what it says.
> 
> To the contrary, it does acknowledge dialectal variations. Just that the
> linguistic differences don't warrant a macrolanguage and primary subtags.
> 

Axel, be careful. Which document are you referring? This page is actually refusing a blaverist proposal.
Catalan language DO have dialectal variation (as all languages) and this can be properly codified and written following certain norms, which it is not the case with this dictionary. Example, see GNOME: 
As I have pointed out in the beginning: Valencian term may refer both to the language name (in a global context, but especially in Valencia region) and to the regional varieties which may also formally written down. 
For example, as used in GNOME project: http://l10n.gnome.org/languages/ca@valencia

That's not the case with that dictionary, as I have explained.

Comment 50

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #46)
   
> 
> The main point I was making is that we don't have any censorship policy for
> *any* of the content on the addon site.  We should not single out this
> dictionary for removal unless we do add a well defined and scoped censorship
> policy, a review process, and module owner or bureaucracy to enforce the
> policy.
> 
> I also expressed my personal belief that we should not have a censorship policy
> for addons.mozilla.org because of the long term impact I believe that it might
> have on innovation.  If you or anyone else following this bug strongly believes
> that we should have a censorship policy, and we should be censoring possibly
> this dictionary and other existing and future addons on amo, then I would
> encourage you to file another bug and make those recommendations there.
> 


Chris, a little remark: when this bug was filled and during all discussion, we were not asking to remove it (or censorship it), but suggesting a better location (not dictionary list) because all the reasons given above, and also a better description (attached screenshot is self-informative).
 

Comment 51

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #49)
> Axel, be careful. Which document are you referring? This page is actually
> refusing a blaverist proposal.

Please, don't use the term blaverist, at least not in this discussion.

I'll have to clear this out since you've stated it wrong. The ISO committee refused our proposal that included modifying the "ca" definition, and this was the true obstacle since they think it would be problematic (?).

They are no authority, scientific nor politic, to decide if "catalan=valencian=balear", so don't mix things. They said "ca" code wasn't an abbreviation for "catalan", but instead a tag that could be used for all these languages. They also stated that we could use the "ca" code just the same way you do for catalan, although we need some way to differentiate because it wouldn't be logic to mix everything under just "ca".

So the truth about this that you are hiddint is that the ISO committe accepts and recommends the use of "ca" for valencian as regulated by the RACV.

In some projects as GNOME, both "ca" and "ca@valencian" are reserved for catalan. We've been left out of the game, and should we ask for another code variant you'll be against it. This isn't what ISO committe decided nor told us.

> Catalan language DO have dialectal variation (as all languages) and this can be
> properly codified and written following certain norms, which it is not the case
> with this dictionary. Example, see GNOME: 
> As I have pointed out in the beginning: Valencian term may refer both to the
> language name (in a global context, but especially in Valencia region) and to
> the regional varieties which may also formally written down. 
> For example, as used in GNOME project:
> http://l10n.gnome.org/languages/ca@valencia
> 
> That's not the case with that dictionary, as I have explained.
> 

That "regional variety" is practically the same as catalan, it doesn't really use the vulgar registry of the AVL (regional particularities accepted in catalan). This tag is mainly use to justify keeping us out of the game, see my comments above.

Comment 52

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #50)
> Chris, a little remark: when this bug was filled and during all discussion, we
> were not asking to remove it (or censorship it), but suggesting a better
> location (not dictionary list) because all the reasons given above, and also a
> better description (attached screenshot is self-informative).
> 

Hiding it, or suggesting to users that it's no good, is censhirship too.

Comment 53

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #51)
> (In reply to comment #49)
> > Axel, be careful. Which document are you referring? This page is actually
> > refusing a blaverist proposal.
> 
> Please, don't use the term blaverist, at least not in this discussion.
> 
> I'll have to clear this out since you've stated it wrong. The ISO committee
> refused our proposal that included modifying the "ca" definition, and this was
> the true obstacle since they think it would be problematic (?).
> 
> They are no authority, scientific nor politic, to decide if
> "catalan=valencian=balear", so don't mix things. They said "ca" code wasn't an
> abbreviation for "catalan", but instead a tag that could be used for all these
> languages. They also stated that we could use the "ca" code just the same way
> you do for catalan, although we need some way to differentiate because it
> wouldn't be logic to mix everything under just "ca".
> 

You were asking that cat (3 letter code) changed to design a macrolanguage instead of a language as nowadays, so you could claim your language secessionist point of view and have a distinct language code. 
Maybe SIL is not a political or academical institution, but AVL and universities are respectively, as we have fully documented.

Comment 54

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #53)
> You were asking that cat (3 letter code) changed to design a macrolanguage
> instead of a language as nowadays, so you could claim your language
> secessionist point of view and have a distinct language code. 

Having our own code would avoid some problems between us, not wanting our translations mixed as if they were the same language. We meet the requirements too since there's a strong colective awareness that valencian is not catalan, although there's a lot of confussion in the way it should be written (mainly due to promoted diglossia). SIL suggested the way we should do our request from these ideas.

In the end, the difference between ISO macrolanguage and ISO language is that the macrolanguage can have sub-codes and the language not. I think there's no more to it, scientifically nor politically. The retroactive change to ISO639-1 and ISO639-2 seemed the real challenge since their maintainers said it could have an undesired impact on actual ISO implementations, or something alike.

> Maybe SIL is not a political or academical institution, but AVL and
> universities are respectively, as we have fully documented.
> 

Yes, the AVL is a political institution and as such it's affected by political context. University should be the home of different ideas and point of views, but as we all know, valencian universities support and promote one point of view in this topic, at the same time promoting the existence of a universal and indisputable truth, just the same you do. I don't agree this kind of univerty is just academic, but this is another discussion. Please, keep focused.

Comment 55

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #54)
> (In reply to comment #53)
> > You were asking that cat (3 letter code) changed to design a macrolanguage
> > instead of a language as nowadays, so you could claim your language
> > secessionist point of view and have a distinct language code. 
> 
> Having our own code would avoid some problems between us, not wanting our
> translations mixed as if they were the same language. We meet the requirements
> too since there's a strong colective awareness that valencian is not catalan,
> although there's a lot of confussion in the way it should be written (mainly
> due to promoted diglossia). SIL suggested the way we should do our request from
> these ideas.
> 
> In the end, the difference between ISO macrolanguage and ISO language is that
> the macrolanguage can have sub-codes and the language not. I think there's no
> more to it, scientifically nor politically. The retroactive change to ISO639-1
> and ISO639-2 seemed the real challenge since their maintainers said it could
> have an undesired impact on actual ISO implementations, or something alike.
> 

The only real diglossia of all Catalan varieties in Spain is with Spanish language. That's quite obvious. Our language in Valencian region is far from a good situation and confusing actions as this one are not intended to improve it all, as other Valencian users in this bug has explained. (http://www.ua.es/uem/docs/noticies/20051025elpval_9.pdf)

I cannot assume good faith in your actions, I'm sorry, and the attached screenshot is a clear proof. I lament that reviewers do not seem to be aware of all this.

Comment 56

[Pere Pasqual]

I wanted to reply some claims Bernardo made in a previous message:

"Someone who disqualifies anyone for writing/publishing their writings in
spanish automatically is disqualifying himself, in my opinion. Feel ashamed
because of this."

You said the "Colectiu" you mentioned was constituted by authors who want to
publish in Valencian. I looked at the list of members and, from those 4 ones, 2
seem unable to publish anything and, on the other two, one isn't writing in
Valencian (we don't know anything about the other one). So I'm simply putting
here facts: it doesn't make sense that someone who claims to belong to an
organization for the defence of publishing in Valencian doesn't publish in
Valencian. Maybe he is affiliated with them for other motivations.

"I'll add only one more thing to what I said before, no need to repeat
everything else. If you read the members page you'll know it says this are
contact members, one per university, total of 4, it's not all members. Maybe
they've done that because listing all members could expose them to acts of
vandalism to his persona or goods."

As you seem to be involved with that "Colectiu", I'd like you to tell us, if
you have the informations, how many members do that association have. I'm not
asking you for names or whatever. Just the number of members. And, if it is
possible, I want that cifer confirmed my some feasible source.

"We aren't discussing here about censorhip in the university, but read this so
you know where that info comes from:
http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/prensa/20080322/opinion/politica-llinguistica-llibertat-expressio-20080322.html
Note how this was published in a newspaper (media) dated 03/22/2008 and using
valencian (RACV normative). So it is used in media, just like the AVL
normative. Just so you see I'm not lying as some people here tries to fool the
others to think."

I've read the letter. "Casually" it is sent by Joan Carles Micó, one of the 4
people listed in the "members" section of the "Colectiu Fullana". Obviously, we
already knew he was using the RACV way of writing Valencian (I won't say
"normative" since it is not a normative authority). So no surprise here.
Obviously, anyone can send to a newspaper whatever he want and written in
whatever form, and the newspaper is free to decide if they want to publish it
in that form or not. 

So that is not a valid example of "it is used in the media", since it is an
opinion letter sent by a reader. No newspaper, no media uses RACV Valencian.
Period. Also, the "just like the AVL normative" is more false even. If 0'5% of
people who writes Valencian do it "the RACV way", that doesn't mean "just like
the AVL normative", since it represents 99'5% of people who writes Valencian.
That isn't "just like".

So maybe you are not technically "lying", but it is not useful to try to show
us a writting of the people who your are defending trying to defend themselves.
Couldn't you find any other example of RACV "Valencian" in the media? That's
like sending a letter to the newspaper supporting your own postulates and
saying: "hey, look at this guy! he agrees with me!". 

As I pointed before, in http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV you can read things
like "nowadays it is discarded, by official instances competent in Valencian
normalization as well as by most of the academic world, that Valencian is a
different language than Catalan", "nowadays, the RACV don't have any
representation nor any teaching power in the Universitat de València, because
study of Valencian is framed inside the bachelor in Catalan Filology, following
the actual filological consensus.", "the approach of the RACV respecting
Valencian lacks of significative support by the academic world", "the RACV
rules have caught little reception in the Valencian cultural and editorial
world, and it has minimum social penetration". 

"I meant that RACV normative is based on language spoken here, contrary to AVL
normative that is based on language spoken in the northwest of Catalonia."

You are starting to be mad here. You are manifesting your own opinion as if it
was the correct one. And it happens to be against the filologic community and
against the scientific consensus. Please note that is obvious that you have
less autority, you are a less realiable source thant those.

Anyway, my *particular* opinion should be at least as valid as yours, and I'm
claiming that the AVL is based on the language spoken here, which happens to be
the same spoken in the northwest, northeast and south of Catalonia, Andorra,
the Balearic Islands and the Italian city of L'Alguer. Oh, wait - that happens
to be the same opinon as the filologic community and as the scientific
consensus!

"Almost every valencian speaks valencian or spanish, even almost every
valencian
that writes in catalan also speaks valencian."

Your particular, excentric opinion is not much useful here. But you are
starting to wist yourself.

"This is a self forced diglossia
since they couldn't communicate normally if they spoke catalan, or more
specifically, the formal catalan used in writing. They hide this fact by saying
everything is catalan, but they don't accept that much variance in writing.
That's why we're discussing here."

I don't agree with you. That is your particular point of view. Period. 

Maybe the grammar of the AVL don't reflect the particular way of speaking of
your own street in your own town. That happens with every grammar for every
language in the world. Ask an Andalusian of Cadiz if the "standard" Spanish
reflects with 100% fidelity the way he speaks (the same applies to an
Argentinan or a Mexican). Probably not, but they are not claiming they are
speaking a different language, nor they don't upload an "Andalusian" dictionary
to the Mozilla extensions page. There EXIST pages on the Internet claiming the
existence of an "Andalusian" language, but, of course, they are not taken more
seriously than a mere joke. So I still cannot explain why this "RACV Valencian"
is getting this much attention and discussion.

Chris, you said:

"The main point I was making is that we don't have any censorship policy for
*any* of the content on the addon site."

That's not censoring anything. It's fixing a bug. That dictionary is full of
typos and incorrections regarding what we know as "official, internationally
and scientifically recognized Valencian". Either you can remove it or EXPLAIN
VERY CLEARLY WHAT IT IS. In case of the 2nd option, be prepared to accept any
other dictionaries of any other "languages" anyone want to submit: Mexican,
Californian , Australian, or even a third "Valencian" dictionary, since, as I
noted before, the RACV itself was using a diferent grammar for "its Valencian"
until 2003, and after their new one, some claimed that the old ones where the
only "authentic" (sic). Those may represent maybe half of the 1% which is
against the consensus of the AVL, but hey, we wouldn't want to "censorship"
them either, isn't that?

Comment 57

[Pere Pasqual]

Sorry, I made a typo. When I said

"As you seem to be involved with that "Colectiu", I'd like you to tell us, if
you have the informations, how many members do that association have. I'm not
asking you for names or whatever. Just the number of members. And, if it is
possible, I want that cifer confirmed my some feasible source."

it should read

"As you seem to be involved with that "Colectiu", I'd like you to tell us, if
you have the information, how many members does that association have. I'm not
asking you for names or whatever. Just the number of members. And, if it is
possible, I want that cifer confirmed BY some feasible source."

Comment 58

[Álvaro Martínez Majado]

(In reply to comment #52)
> 
> Hiding it, or suggesting to users that it's no good, is censhirship too.
> 

Benvolgut Bernat,

I should thank again your interest in work for free software and your insistence for defending your work. But, at the same time, as long as you do not provide any other authoritative sources that a single webpage of a controverted institution that backed your arguments, I should ask you for an effort in order to stop this flame war.

You know: Provoke intentionally a lake of information or give false information is also in some way kinds of censorship (please, see how Track Me Not extension for Mozilla works: obfuscation is a good way for hiding data). 

(Of course, I also ask the other participants in the discussion for an effort to stop the flame.)

Comment 59

[Álvaro Martínez Majado]

I'm sure we can all achieve a consensus about what text would be the best for this Addon and for closing this bug. 

Comment 60

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #55)
> The only real diglossia of all Catalan varieties in Spain is with Spanish
> language. That's quite obvious. Our language in Valencian region is far from a
> good situation and confusing actions as this one are not intended to improve it
> all, as other Valencian users in this bug has explained.
> (http://www.ua.es/uem/docs/noticies/20051025elpval_9.pdf)
> 

Situation here is much complex than in Catalonia as you can see from my
comments.

> I cannot assume good faith in your actions, I'm sorry, and the attached
> screenshot is a clear proof. I lament that reviewers do not seem to be aware of
> all this.
> 

Can we assume blindly ggod faith in yours? Is this bug about where the good
faith is?

I think we should assume we're all working in good faith, or else, why all this
talk?

(In reply to comment #56)
> You said the "Colectiu" you mentioned was constituted by authors who want to
> publish in Valencian. I looked at the list of members and, from those 4 ones, 2
> seem unable to publish anything and, on the other two, one isn't writing in
> Valencian (we don't know anything about the other one). So I'm simply putting
> here facts: it doesn't make sense that someone who claims to belong to an
> organization for the defence of publishing in Valencian doesn't publish in
> Valencian. Maybe he is affiliated with them for other motivations.

You should read all my comments. If publishing in valencian is subject to
censorship, the alternative is writing in english, spanish, catalan, or
whatever. That freedom still exists, is this amazing?

> I've read the letter. "Casually" it is sent by Joan Carles Micó, one of the 4
> people listed in the "members" section of the "Colectiu Fullana". Obviously, we
> already knew he was using the RACV way of writing Valencian (I won't say
> "normative" since it is not a normative authority). So no surprise here.
> Obviously, anyone can send to a newspaper whatever he want and written in
> whatever form, and the newspaper is free to decide if they want to publish it
> in that form or not. 

I'm starting to think you have an understanding problem. Would you call
"casual" the fact that one of the "Colectiu Fullana" representatives listed in
the contact page is sending press releases?

> I don't agree with you. That is your particular point of view. Period. 

Oh, great, you've noticed I'm speaking from my own point of view. Note that I'm
respecting other points of view too.

(In reply to comment #57)
> "As you seem to be involved with that "Colectiu", I'd like you to tell us, if
> you have the information, how many members does that association have. I'm not
> asking you for names or whatever. Just the number of members. And, if it is
> possible, I want that cifer confirmed BY some feasible source."
> 

I'm not involved with the Colectiu Fullana. You've reached their contact page,
shall I explain the next step?

Comment 61

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #59)
> I'm sure we can all achieve a consensus about what text would be the best for
> this Addon and for closing this bug. 
> 

I agree with you on this. I'm getting tired of this too, I think we should focus on the purpose of this bug that is getting a good description that is informational and useful to users.

(In reply to comment #58)
> I should thank again your interest in work for free software and your
> insistence for defending your work. But, at the same time, as long as you do
> not provide any other authoritative sources that a single webpage of a
> controverted institution that backed your arguments, I should ask you for an
> effort in order to stop this flame war.

That's not the best way to stop a flame war. I've provided more than a webpage, I've provided more than should ever be required to publish an addon, and far more than necessary to prove than I haven't made anything up. So please, stop complaining.

Comment 62

[Álvaro Martínez Majado]

(In reply to comment #61)
> 
> I agree with you on this.

I'm happy to read this :)


> That's not the best way to stop a flame war. 

Sure? It's not my intention to intensify any flame.

> I've provided more than a webpage,

Ok, that's true. But Pere Pasqual has yet replied something about Las Provincias' article (and there are some other replies about other sources too): If I'm not misunderstanding something, actually there are two sources: Fullana and RACV. Ture? Fullana and RACV versus AVL, Universities, Schools, Administration, etc. Don't you think that your addon's description should reflect this fact in some way?

> I've provided more than should ever be required to publish an addon, and far
> more than necessary to prove than I haven't made anything up. So please, stop
> complaining.

Please, do not complain about complains (this kind of personal discussions are not actually the best way to stop a flame war). Seriously: I'm sure that all participants in this discussion want the same, we all want prevent confusions. So It can't be so hard. All ready for a good consensus? :)

(Please, sorry the terrible mistakes I've done, obviously I'm not a native English speaker.)

Comment 63

[Quim Perez]

Hi,

Getting back to my proposal in comment #37. I do think that it's better than the actual, because the actual is saying thinks such "authentic valencian language spoken in Valencia". But this is nonesense, AVL also is authentic valencian. A dictionary don't defines how people speaks a languange, it defines how they write in. I told about this in my comment #15.   

Well Bernat said that "People should know what AVL and RACV are" and "blaverism is polemic definition" but this is not true. 

I think that the best definition of this addon is "RACV dictionary" or "Blaverist valencian dictionary". Both definitions will say exactly what is it.  Blaverist people will find this add very fast, and don't disturb non-blaverist valencian people when they search a correct AVL valencian dictionary.

Blaverism is not a bad word, it just defines a political position.

So better change the name of the addon, and better put my proposal as a short description.   

Comment 64

[Pere Pasqual]

> > You said the "Colectiu" you mentioned was constituted by authors who want to
> > publish in Valencian. I looked at the list of members and, from those 4 ones, 2
> > seem unable to publish anything and, on the other two, one isn't writing in
> > Valencian (we don't know anything about the other one). So I'm simply putting
> > here facts: it doesn't make sense that someone who claims to belong to an
> > organization for the defence of publishing in Valencian doesn't publish in
> > Valencian. Maybe he is affiliated with them for other motivations.
> 
> You should read all my comments. If publishing in valencian is subject to
> censorship, the alternative is writing in english, spanish, catalan, or
> whatever. That freedom still exists, is this amazing?

I'm starting to think that you have a serious mental problem. In this discussion you have stated that the "Valencian" of your dictionary is "the authentic Valencian", but in this discussion we have seen that "your Valencian":
a) is not the official one
b) isn't recognized by the linguistic, filological and scientific international community
c)don't have almost any social nor intelectual support

Again, in your paragraph, you are claiming one more time that your Valencian is "the only authentic Valencian", since you are going as far as saying that "writing in Valencian is subject to censorship". NO. Writting in Valencian was almost forbidden during Franco's dictatorship, but not (fortunately) now. As I said before, I was a scholar in a department in my University whose purpose is to promote it. I can write in Valencian. Anyone can write in Valencian. I do it. I've translated software to Valencian, for free.

The case you told us about the professor whose book was retired is not a case of censorship. It was the only single book I have seen retired of hundreds of books in Valencian issued by my University, and the motivation was it was so poorly written. The University got notice because of several complaints by the students.

Is the same as if you write in Spanish: you can't expect your University will publish your book in Spanish if it doesn't conform to Real Academia Española normative. Even if you conform to them, the University can have a "style book" which you have to conform also. You cannot work for a newspaper if you don't conform to their style book. They won't publish your writtings and you will get fired. BUT THAT'S NOT CENSORSHIP. PERIOD.

By the way... As I said in a previous message, the teacher that is affiliated with that "Colectiu Fullana" which is supposed entitled to defense authors who want to publish in Valencian but don't publish himself in Valencian does have the titles of his webpages and the subjects of their writtings in Valencian, hosted in a page of his University. Hey, there is material of 5 or 6 years ago. It seems nobody has forbidden him to write in Valencian no matter the way he does it, isn't it?? (even it is in incorrect Valencian). That thends to demonstrate that it isn't forbidden to write in your Valencian, and makes me guess he writes the major part of his work in Spanish because... he wants to, and not because "Valencian is subject to censorship".

> I'm starting to think you have an understanding problem. Would you call
> "casual" the fact that one of the "Colectiu Fullana" representatives listed in
> the contact page is sending press releases?

Are you schizo or simply amnesiac? Of course I find so natural a member of a collective sends a press release to the media. But that wasn't the subject of the matter. WE WERE DISCUSSING HOW "NORMALLY" IS USED THE "RACV" VALENCIAN IN THE MEDIA. You are giving a kind of "recursive demonstration": "what Colectiu Fullana does is so usual; I will demonstrate it by showing a letter sent by Colectiu Fullana". How ridiculous can this get? 

> > I don't agree with you. That is your particular point of view. Period. 
> 
> Oh, great, you've noticed I'm speaking from my own point of view. Note that I'm
> respecting other points of view too.

But hey, don't you understand your opinion, which is followed only by less than 1% of Valencian people and doesn't have any scientific support, doesn't deserve to get paid that ammount of attention? Should I expect to get my dictionary promoted on this site if tomorrow I declare that Washingtonian is different than English and I issue my own dictionary?

> (In reply to comment #57)
> > "As you seem to be involved with that "Colectiu", I'd like you to tell us, if
> > you have the information, how many members does that association have. I'm not
> > asking you for names or whatever. Just the number of members. And, if it is
> > possible, I want that cifer confirmed BY some feasible source."
> > 
> 
> I'm not involved with the Colectiu Fullana. You've reached their contact page,
> shall I explain the next step?
> 

I already know their number of members is really insignificant, since 3 of the 5 Valencian public universities are lacking any kind of representation and their last activities were reported in 2006.

Comment 65

[Francis Tyers]

(In reply to comment #34)
> I agree with Toni, people in the street don't know what RACV and AVL is. But
> they know what is blaverism and anticatalanism
> (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverismo). 
> 
> Bernat, if you want to explain what RACV is, you should link to 
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV. It clarifies what RACV is nowadays. 
> 
> My proposal:
> 
> WARNING
> This extension uses a non-official Valencian normative regulated
> by RACV (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACV). If you are looking for the
> official Valencian dictionary use this (...).
> 
> ****
> 

This proposal seems fair, although I would alter it as:

  WARNING
  This extension uses a Valencian norm regulated by the RACV 
  (http://www.racv.es/) which is not official in the Comunitat 
  Valenciana. If you are looking for the dictionary which 
  follows the official norm in the Comunitat Valenciana, please 
  use (...)

That Bern might want his dictionary included is reasonable (although we might not all be in agreement), that we discuss the problem of competing norms in this bug is not. Bugzilla is not a soapbox.

I think the "desconeixem si existix" (we don't know if it exists) in the current description, as commented by Eduard and Toni is in extremely bad taste and demonstrates bad faith.

Comment 66

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #65)
> This proposal seems fair, although I would alter it as:
> 
>   WARNING
>   This extension uses a Valencian norm regulated by the RACV 
>   (http://www.racv.es/) which is not official in the Comunitat 
>   Valenciana. If you are looking for the dictionary which 
>   follows the official norm in the Comunitat Valenciana, please 
>   use (...)
> 
> That Bern might want his dictionary included is reasonable (although we might
> not all be in agreement), that we discuss the problem of competing norms in
> this bug is not. Bugzilla is not a soapbox.
> 

Giving it the "official" rank might mean many things, and maybe it doesn't deserve many of them.

> I think the "desconeixem si existix" (we don't know if it exists) in the
> current description, as commented by Eduard and Toni is in extremely bad taste
> and demonstrates bad faith.

I wrote the truth, I/we don't know. But I think this discussion doesn't belong here, so I've opened Bug 435797.

Comment 67

[Josué]

Hello everybody.  

The main reason why I abandoned Microsoft Office to use Open Office was that I can enjoy a Valencian language dictionary. And lots of people are doing the same day after day. And now I am discovering Open Office is better than Microsoft Office but if Valencian dictionary were finally removed I would be forced to come back to Microsoft again. 

 

I cannot understand why catalanist people are so obssessed with Valencian language. They have their own Catalan version and that’s OK. We tell nothing about it. On the contrary, they want to erase our Valencian language dictionary. It is a little bit fascist attitude, isn’t it? If you are not interested in that, it is easy... just don’t use it but let other people the possibility to enjoy it. 

 

This Valencian dictionary is based on the Real Academia de Cultura Valenciana (RACV) normative. This RACV is a cultural institution founded in 1915 by an official government like Diputació de Valéncia (Valencia Government). Moreover, the own Spanish King, Juan Carlos I, gave it the status of royal in 1991. The RACV is composed by the most prestigious Valencian scientists and researchers who study not only language but also history, genealogy, heraldry, art, environment, etc. Actually, RACV has signed collaboration agreements with several Universities like Universitat Politècnica de Valéncia o Universitat CEU Cardenal Herrera. 

 

 

RACV Normative was used in the seventies and eighties by official governments like Generalitat Valenciana (Valencian Government), Diputació de Castelló (Castelló Government), Diputació de Valéncia (Valencia Government), Diputació d’Alacant (Alacant Government) and hundreds of city councils. 

 
  

Furthermore, we must remember that according to the Spanish Sociological Researches Centre –the official in Spain- 64,4% of Valencian people consider Valencian a language different from Catalan. Only the 28,8% of Valencian citizens believe there are the same language. 

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/936/1297/1600/119%20no%20es%20el%20nom.1.jpg

 

 

So, please respect the Open Office Valencian dictionary. If you don’t like it, just don’t use it. It is easy. But please respect if other people –like me- want to use it. We live in a multicultural world and everybody should respect each other if we really believe in peace. This is my point. And I think it is fair.

Thanks very much.

Josué  

Comment 68

[Francis Tyers]

(In reply to comment #66)
> (In reply to comment #65)
> > This proposal seems fair, although I would alter it as:
> > 
> >   WARNING
> >   This extension uses a Valencian norm regulated by the RACV 
> >   (http://www.racv.es/) which is not official in the Comunitat 
> >   Valenciana. If you are looking for the dictionary which 
> >   follows the official norm in the Comunitat Valenciana, please 
> >   use (...)
> > 
> > That Bern might want his dictionary included is reasonable (although we might
> > not all be in agreement), that we discuss the problem of competing norms in
> > this bug is not. Bugzilla is not a soapbox.
> > 
> Giving it the "official" rank might mean many things, and maybe it doesn't
> deserve many of them.

There may be many definitions of "official" in English, you can look them up.
But in terms of languages and linguistics, at least in publications in the
English language, "official language" has a quite clear meaning.

  "An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in 
   a particular country, state, or other territory. Typically a nation's 
   official language will be the one used in that nation's courts, parliament 
   and administration"[1]

The Valencian norm which is official (used overwhelmingly by the courts,
parliament and administration) is the one regulated by AVL, not by RACV. This
is the official one. Any other discussion of other types of officiality is not
relevant here.

==Notes==

1. "Official language", Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language, Ed.
Tom McArthur, Oxford University Press, 1998. 

Comment 69

[Josué]

In comment number 67 I mentioned Open Office dictionary. Sorry. It was a mistake. I obviously wanted to refer to Firefox one. Thanks. 

Comment 70

[Eduard Gamonal]

Dear Josué,
I strongly recommend you to read the previous comments. We don't need more explanations about what RACV is. The solutions presented involve a change in the description, but not removing the dictionary. We are not talking about an OpenOffice dictionary, but about a mozilla add-on which happens to be a dictionary. Maybe it was easier just posting quickly and trying to change the topic rather than reading what we discussed before? This is long enough. Please, don't repeat things.

That screenshot is not important since we are not discussing wether catalan an valencian are the same. We are talking about a proper description for Bernat's dictionary.
By the way, why don't you look for a better information source? I don't think an image taken from a blog (first result in a Google query) is anything official, reliable or anything that should be considered for a solution. In addition, this is irrelevant 

Francis Tyer's explanation is great. We should consider it for a good solution, maybe based on meaning of the word «official».

Comment 71

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #70)
> Francis Tyer's explanation is great. We should consider it for a good solution,
> maybe based on meaning of the word «official».
> 

Francis Tyer's explanation is very very bad. We aren't discussing which is the "official language" in Valencia. It's obvious, it's Valencian as the law reads.

He's confusing "official language" and "official dictionary" as if it was all the same.

Valencian is the official language in Valencian, but your catalan dictionary isn't official in any way.

Comment 72

[Eduard Gamonal]

(In reply to comment #71)
> (In reply to comment #70)
> > Francis Tyer's explanation is great. We should consider it for a good solution,
> We aren't discussing which is the
> "official language" in Valencia. It's obvious, it's Valencian as the law reads.

Yep, Valencian using AVL rules.

> He's confusing "official language" and "official dictionary" as if it was all
> the same.
> 
No. We are using the word official to clarify that your dictionary is not used in any official way. 

> Valencian is the official language in Valencian, but your catalan dictionary
> isn't official in any way.
We are not talking about what's the official language in Valencia. The topic is your add-on, not about ca dictionary. You already opened a bug for that and we are discussing about it there. Josué, who I think shares your point of view, already pretended to mix other topics in this bug.

Comment 73

[chris hofmann]

> when this bug was filled and during all discussion, we
> were not asking to remove it (or censorship it), but suggesting a better
> location (not dictionary list) because all the reasons given above, and also a
> better description (attached screenshot is self-informative).

I think that this bug has taken many turns outside the bounds of what was initially suggested or intended, but I like to close in on what I think the bug means now.

The assertion was made is that having the Valencian RACV dictionary on the dictionary and language pack index page was resulting in widespread user confusion and frustration, and that removing this dictionary would remove this problem.

I've been pouring tough web analytics from addons.mozilla.org and I can find any data that supports this claim.

If you combine the total and weekly downloads for the two dictionaries over the last several months the Valencian RACV dictionary is getting around 2%-4% of the downloads.  The  No one has presented clear information about the population that might affiliate or be looking for with the Valencian RACV dictionary so we are left to assume that out of the 2%-4% most of the users that are downloading are getting what they intended to download and use. The Catalan/Valencian dictionary https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 gets the remaining 96%-98% of the downloads.

As we expected most of the web traffic used to navigate to those dictionaries goes through a combination of 3 paths, the dictionary index pages, search, direct links to the dictionary information pages..


*** The three Dictionary Index pages
--------------------------------

   These are:
   https://addons.mozilla.org/es-ES/firefox/browse/type:3
   https://addons.mozilla.org/ca/firefox/browse/type:3
   https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browse/type:3

As mentioned earlier in the bug, the Dictionary index pages previously linked directly to the dictionary .xpi's, but that was changed about 2 weeks ago.  The index page all now go though the dictionary information pages to give users a chance to get more detail on the dictionary, and to view user comments and reviews before deciding to download and install.  If there was confusion caused by this process it now has been removed.   Looking though the data from before and after the change I still was unable to find much evidence of users being confused.  In part that might be related to the position of the two dictionaries on the index page.

   Catalan  	català-valencià  	Install Dictionary (556 KB)

appears above the fold as the 7th entry on page.

   Valencian  	valencià  	Install Dictionary (339 KB)

appears 4 or 5 full pages down as about the 64th double spaced entry on the index pages.  Users currently have to go well out of there way to find the second version if they are looking for it on the index page.

That fact alone might be a big contributor to the 98% - 2% difference in the downloads over the last several months.  If we do any additional redesign changes to the index pages we should keep an eye out to see if positioning of these two entries changes the traffic to the dictionary information pages or downloads, but for now there looks like no problem on these pages.


*** Search for "valencian dictionary" and similar terms
---------------------------------------------------
  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/search?q=valencian+dictionary&cat=3%2C0

   when looking at positioning and information on those pages users are likely to choose the most popular (in terms of downloads) and most available ( in terms of versions supported)  There shouldn't be any confussion if users use the search path to navigate to the dictionaries.


*** Direct links to the dictionary informational pages
---------------------------------------------------

These are:

  https://addons.mozilla.org/es-ES/firefox/addon/3369
  https://addons.mozilla.org/ca/firefox/addon/3369
  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369

and

  https://addons.mozilla.org/es-ES/firefox/addon/4796
  https://addons.mozilla.org/ca/firefox/addon/4796
  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4796

Looking next at the dictionary information pages I ran across some interesting data.  I found that the highest amount of traffic for the català-valencià dictionary page actually comes from the the Spanish version of the page.  Here is the breakdown.

 56% of the traffic to addon/3369 is coming from  /es-ES/firefox/addon/3369
 37% from /ca/firefox/addon/3369
 6.5% from /en-US/firefox/addon/3369
 then a very long tail of other localizations with very small pcts.

We do have a lot more es-ES users that Catalan but I didn't expect they would have as much interest in Valencian dictionaries as we are seeing.  The important take away here is that we need to make sure the Spanish translations of the AMO pages need to stay closely in sync with any information changes are maded.  About 300-600 users per day are currently checking out information on /firefox/addon/3369

I couldn't pull any data out of the analytics package on the hits to the */firefox/addon/4796 pages because the traffic was to low on those pages to register as an "interesting" navigational path though the site.

Given all this data it seems like a lot of people are spending quite a bit of time trying to solve a non-problem if the problem is defined as confusing navigation or users getting the wrong dictionary;  There just is not that much traffic to addon/4796


Again,  lets stay focused on improving the short summary for the dictionary information pages and close out this bug.


"This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es) based on language spoken by some in Valencian Region (Comunitat Valenciana).

This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and administrative areas that require use of AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/).  See [ link to https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary based on the AVL normative."


I think that removes all confusion, and avoids all the knots we keep getting tied up in about definition of "offical" and "non-offical", "true", "forced" and provides navigation to other choices that we know users might be interested in based on the web analytics discussed above.

I'd like to get everyone to agree to that short description, move forward with the translation of that text as needed, and close out this bug.  The web analytics re-enforce that we all have better things to do that can really improve Firefox for our users than to continue this discussion endlessly.

Comment 74

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #73)

I would personally change title in list page at least as following:

Valencian (RACV)  ->  valencià (RACV)

Just for stating that is not "common" Valencian, as most people would expect. 

About description:

WARNING:
"This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es).
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and
administrative areas that require use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/).  See [ link to
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary based on
the AVL normative."

I would remove from your previous description: "based on language spoken by some in Valencian Region (Comunitat Valenciana)". Because that seems to suggest that people interested in that dictionay speak in a different way from people interested in common norm, and that's not true.

Comment 75

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #73)
> Given all this data it seems like a lot of people are spending quite a bit of
> time trying to solve a non-problem if the problem is defined as confusing
> navigation or users getting the wrong dictionary;  There just is not that much
> traffic to addon/4796

It's true, some people have exaggerated and imagined problems where there were none.

> 
> Again,  lets stay focused on improving the short summary for the dictionary
> information pages and close out this bug.
> 
> 
> "This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
> of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es) based on language spoken by some in
> Valencian Region (Comunitat Valenciana).
> 
> This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and
> administrative areas that require use of AVL normative
> (http://www.avl.gva.es/).  See [ link to
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary based on
> the AVL normative."
> 

Pretty close, but I don't think the "dictionary based on the AVL dictionary" is true. Dictionary 3369 isn't really based on AVL normative but IEC as commented on Bug 435797. It would be more truthful saying "for a dictionary closer to the AVL normative."


(In reply to comment #74)
> (In reply to comment #73)
> 
> I would personally change title in list page at least as following:
> 
> Valencian (RACV)  ->  valencià (RACV)

You should change yours to:
Catalan (IEC) -> català-valencià (IEC)
as there are other possibilities (AVL).

> I would remove from your previous description: "based on language spoken by
> some in Valencian Region (Comunitat Valenciana)". Because that seems to suggest
> that people interested in that dictionay speak in a different way from people
> interested in common norm, and that's not true.
> 

I think this part might be redundant and could be taken away. The original sentence meant that it's the closest dictionary to Valencian spoken language (AVL is closer to Catalan spoken language).

If we can agree here I'd like to move on too and close this bug.

Comment 76

[Fred Wenzel [:wenzel]]

I suggest we mark them both as the same "target locale", which will result in them showing up next to each other on the dictionaries page instead of at opposite ends of it.

(This is in addition to the description changes you guys are talking about).

The current status is:
- Catalan/Valencian (3369) contains "ca"
- RACV (4796) is "ca-valencia".

Both of these should be "ca" so they show up together in the list. Then you can add a very short explanation (3 words or so) to show up in the list too, and any other explanation you want on the actual details page.

Please take a look at the German (Germany) or the French dictionaries in the list in order to see what this would look like.

Comment 77

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #75)
> (In reply to comment #73)
> > Given all this data it seems like a lot of people are spending quite a bit of
> > time trying to solve a non-problem if the problem is defined as confusing
> > navigation or users getting the wrong dictionary;  There just is not that much
> > traffic to addon/4796
> 
> It's true, some people have exaggerated and imagined problems where there were
> none.
> 
> > 
> > Again,  lets stay focused on improving the short summary for the dictionary
> > information pages and close out this bug.
> > 
> > 
> > "This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
> > of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es) based on language spoken by some in
> > Valencian Region (Comunitat Valenciana).
> > 
> > This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and
> > administrative areas that require use of AVL normative
> > (http://www.avl.gva.es/).  See [ link to
> > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary based on
> > the AVL normative."
> > 
> 
> Pretty close, but I don't think the "dictionary based on the AVL dictionary" is
> true. Dictionary 3369 isn't really based on AVL normative but IEC as commented
> on Bug 435797. It would be more truthful saying "for a dictionary closer to the
> AVL normative."
> 

Bernat, I think my set and subset explanation in your bug is fully explicative,
and that would apply to most dictionary cases (not only for our language).

We take several sources coherent with the official norms. And of course, we are
in constant development to improve our results.
We could consider universities which, as I quoted before in this bug, have
their own guide:
(http://www.ua.es/spv/assessorament/criteris.pdf)
Of course, differences are minor. And they both cooperate
(http://www.avl.gva.es/accessible/gabinet/premsa.asp?id=211)

That would be the outcome:

"This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es).
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government,
administrative and university areas that require use of AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/) or academical normatives.  See [ link to
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary based on those
criteria."

Comment 78

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #76)
> I suggest we mark them both as the same "target locale", which will result in
> them showing up next to each other on the dictionaries page instead of at
> opposite ends of it.
> 
> (This is in addition to the description changes you guys are talking about).
> 
> The current status is:
> - Catalan/Valencian (3369) contains "ca"
> - RACV (4796) is "ca-valencia".
> 
> Both of these should be "ca" so they show up together in the list. Then you can
> add a very short explanation (3 words or so) to show up in the list too, and
> any other explanation you want on the actual details page.
> 
> Please take a look at the German (Germany) or the French dictionaries in the
> list in order to see what this would look like.
> 

Hi Frederic,

If you have been able to read the whole discussion :), you can see that's a difficult decision.
We cannot strictly compare it to German or French cases. As Quim pointed in comment 15, with all my respects, that's a Valencian (locale code: ca) roughly written with some peculiar Spanish alike rules.
The only handicap of this, as Chris has pointed at, is that the dictionary will become more visible in the list and could render more easily to criticisms, so descriptions become more important if this has to be handled.

In that case, I would not add a tag for Catalan/Valencian version now.
In the future, if we add more official compliant dictionaries, we will tag them accordingly as general, balearic, central, valencian, and so on.
For the RACV one, then I would suggest using the tag "Non-official RACV" in the list. If the term official wants to be avoided, which I think it's the most appropriate though, the only thing I could imagine is "Blaverist RACV".

Comment 79

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #77)
> Bernat, I think my set and subset explanation in your bug is fully explicative,
> and that would apply to most dictionary cases (not only for our language).
> 
> We take several sources coherent with the official norms. And of course, we are
> in constant development to improve our results.
> We could consider universities which, as I quoted before in this bug, have
> their own guide:
> (http://www.ua.es/spv/assessorament/criteris.pdf)
> Of course, differences are minor. And they both cooperate
> (http://www.avl.gva.es/accessible/gabinet/premsa.asp?id=211)
> 

Then, you're doing a dictionary for scientists, I wonder how many scientists are using this dictionary in contrast to other uses.

This could be a lot more complicated since everyone has their own guides, scientific language is a particular case. Furthermore, even valencian TV channels have their own linguistic guides where there are some words they can't use and other that they should use. Because intelligibility for everyone is key, a lot of Valencian words are recommended always over the Catalan ones.

Looking at it that way, neither your dictionary nor mine are good for a lot of uses like these mentioned. I think we shouldn't make it so much more complicated.

> That would be the outcome:
> 
> "This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
> of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es).
> This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government,
> administrative and university areas that require use of AVL
> (http://www.avl.gva.es/) or academical normatives.  See [ link to
> https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary based on those
> criteria."
> 

Both normatives are academic, so the line "... or academical normatives" is plainly wrong. This is your try at adding an indirect derogatory statement.

I think we're even being too lax when saying your dictionary is good for administrative and other areas since you don't have any certification or accreditation for that, besides you're not following AVL normative. The best we could say is that your dictionary might be more appropriate.

I would put it like this:

"This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es).

This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and
administrative areas that require use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/).  See [ link to
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary closer to the AVL normative."

(In reply to comment #78)
> In that case, I would not add a tag for Catalan/Valencian version now.
> In the future, if we add more official compliant dictionaries, we will tag them
> accordingly as general, balearic, central, valencian, and so on.

Your take on this is interesting since ISO said we should use the CA code. I think ISO has much more authority than you on this, but I'd like to know what MoFo thinks about this, please, email me with your suggestions. I already asked about this in Mozilla l10n mailing list but had no answer.

> For the RACV one, then I would suggest using the tag "Non-official RACV" in the
> list. If the term official wants to be avoided, which I think it's the most
> appropriate though, the only thing I could imagine is "Blaverist RACV".
> 

This kind of derogatory and mocking comments aren't much appropriate here, we should be trying to reach agreement, at least I do. Please, restrain your prejudices.

Comment 80

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

> Your take on this is interesting since ISO said we should use the CA code. I
> think ISO has much more authority than you on this, but I'd like to know what
> MoFo thinks about this, please, email me with your suggestions. I already asked
> about this in Mozilla l10n mailing list but had no answer.
> 

What you mean by ISO? ISO codes state that Catalan and Valencian are two names for the same language, which of course, has one code. That's the reason (comment 7) we are using both names in our general linguistic translations and dictionaries.
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php

You are simply all the time pushing your political secessionist ideas, and you will not mind using whatever eroding strategy may be necessary to help it. That's the fact.

> > For the RACV one, then I would suggest using the tag "Non-official RACV" in the
> > list. If the term official wants to be avoided, which I think it's the most
> > appropriate though, the only thing I could imagine is "Blaverist RACV".
> > 
> 
> This kind of derogatory and mocking comments aren't much appropriate here, we
> should be trying to reach agreement, at least I do. Please, restrain your
> prejudices.
> 

I lament that you feel offended by the 'blaverist' term, but it's how is widely know your political position (see comment 63).

Comment 81

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

For finishing it up, I write the final result, since I think we are losing too much time that we could devote to Firefox 3, 
Frederuc, location in page is better as it is now. I think we avoid problem this way, no matter which locale is coded behind in the end.

List page:
Valencian (RACV)  --- valencià (RACV)

Description (en)
WARNING
This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es). This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government or administrative areas that require the use of AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/) or university guidelines. See [link https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] for a dictionary according to those criteria.

Description (es)
ADVERTENCIA:
Esta extensión usa un valenciano formulado y regulado de acuerdo con la Real Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). No es apropiado para su uso en ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o administrativos que requieren del uso de la normativa de la AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/) o de las directrices universitarias. Consulte [este enlace https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] para un diccionario de acuerdo con esos criterios.

Description (ca)
ADVERTÈNCIA
Esta extensió utilitza un valencià formulat i regulat d'acord amb la Reial Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). No és apropiat per al seu ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o administratius que requereixen de l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/) o de les directrius universitàries. Consulteu [este enllaç https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari d'acord amb eixos criteris.


This solution might not please me, but I would prefer to end it up now.

Comment 82

[Francis Tyers]

(In reply to comment #81)

> This solution might not please me, but I would prefer to end it up now.
> 

Agree, this isn't perfect, but it is adequate.

Comment 83

[Wil Clouser [:clouserw]]

(In reply to comment #81)

Adding text like "(RACV)" after the name of the language on the list page is not possible with the current system and would require code changes on AMO.  Adding it underneath the "Install Dictionary" link is easy to do now and is consistent with the rest of the page.  I'd suggest we add something like "Following RACV normative" under the "Install Dictionary" link and if people don't know what RACV is they'll read it once they click through to the detail page.

It sounds like we are very close to a solution here and I'd encourage everyone to stay focused and avoid side arguments.

Bernat - is the text in comment #81 acceptable?

Comment 84

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #83)
> (In reply to comment #81)
> 
> Adding text like "(RACV)" after the name of the language on the list page is
> not possible with the current system and would require code changes on AMO. 
> Adding it underneath the "Install Dictionary" link is easy to do now and is
> consistent with the rest of the page.  I'd suggest we add something like
> "Following RACV normative" under the "Install Dictionary" link and if people
> don't know what RACV is they'll read it once they click through to the detail
> page.
> 

If parenthesis where not possible, we can use other characters such as "-".
So we would have:
Valencian -RACV- -> valencià -RACV-
Is this possible?

Comment 85

[Wil Clouser [:clouserw]]

(In reply to comment #84)
> (In reply to comment #83)
> > (In reply to comment #81)
> > 
> > Adding text like "(RACV)" after the name of the language on the list page is
> > not possible with the current system and would require code changes on AMO. 
> > Adding it underneath the "Install Dictionary" link is easy to do now and is
> > consistent with the rest of the page.  I'd suggest we add something like
> > "Following RACV normative" under the "Install Dictionary" link and if people
> > don't know what RACV is they'll read it once they click through to the detail
> > page.
> > 
> 
> If parenthesis where not possible, we can use other characters such as "-".
> So we would have:
> Valencian -RACV- -> valencià -RACV-
> Is this possible?
> 

The location is the problem not the symbols.  The text should be under the "Install Dictionary" link.

Comment 86

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #85)

If symbols are not a problem, I think it's preferable to include RACV with the name, since it's not what is commonly known as "Valencian" alone. 

Thanks.

Comment 87

[Wil Clouser [:clouserw]]

(In reply to comment #86)
> (In reply to comment #85)
> 
> If symbols are not a problem, I think it's preferable to include RACV with the
> name, since it's not what is commonly known as "Valencian" alone. 
> 
> Thanks.
> 

I'm saying the name and any text around it can't be changed without modifying the actual code on AMO.  In order to be consistent with the rest of the page and get this done in a reasonable time frame the text should go under the "install dictionary" link.  That is the only place I can add text right now.

Comment 88

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #87)
> (In reply to comment #86)
> > (In reply to comment #85)
> > 
> > If symbols are not a problem, I think it's preferable to include RACV with the
> > name, since it's not what is commonly known as "Valencian" alone. 
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> 
> I'm saying the name and any text around it can't be changed without modifying
> the actual code on AMO.  In order to be consistent with the rest of the page
> and get this done in a reasonable time frame the text should go under the
> "install dictionary" link.  That is the only place I can add text right now.
> 

So, as far I understand, current names are harcoded? If this is true, this needs to be changed, and I would consider your solution in list page as temporary till that can be fixed.

Comment 89

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #81)> List page:
> Valencian (RACV)  --- valencià (RACV)

No list change is necessary, this is resolved by the description in the addon page. You're too obsessed with some points.

> 
> Description (en)
> WARNING
> This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
> of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es). This dictionary is not appropriate for
> use in education, government or administrative areas that require the use of
> AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/) or university guidelines. See [link
> https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] for a dictionary according to
> those criteria.
> 

This is just a rewording of your last proposal. Why don't you say what's wrong with my last proposal?

Your translations are different than the English version, you should stop playing with words or this might be endless.

These would be the correct translations of my last proposal:

Description (en)
"This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es).

This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and
administrative areas that require use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/).  See [ link to
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary closer
to the AVL normative."


Description (es)
Esta extensión usa el valenciano formulado y regulado por la Real
Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es).

Este diccionario no es apropiado para su uso en
ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o administrativos que requieran el uso de
la normativa de la AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulte [link
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] para un diccionario más cercano a la normativa de la AVL.

Description (ca)
Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat per la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es).

Este diccionari no és apropiat per al seu
ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o administratius que requereixen de
l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulteu [link
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari més proper a la normativa de l'AVL.

I think there's nothing wrong with it, if you don't agree say what's wrong for you and don't make this harder.

Comment 90

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #83)
> (In reply to comment #81)
> 
> Adding text like "(RACV)" after the name of the language on the list page is
> not possible with the current system and would require code changes on AMO. 
> Adding it underneath the "Install Dictionary" link is easy to do now and is
> consistent with the rest of the page.  I'd suggest we add something like
> "Following RACV normative" under the "Install Dictionary" link and if people
> don't know what RACV is they'll read it once they click through to the detail
> page.
> 

I don't know why the problem has gone now to the list. I think Toni and friends are too fussy, I don't see any problem in the list. The link to the addon page is a very good solution so people can access complete information before installing. I think Toni won't never get enough attention.

> It sounds like we are very close to a solution here and I'd encourage everyone
> to stay focused and avoid side arguments.
> 
> Bernat - is the text in comment #81 acceptable?
> 

No, reasons explained in comment 89.

Comment 91

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #89)
> (In reply to comment #81)> List page:
> > Valencian (RACV)  --- valencià (RACV)
> 
> No list change is necessary, this is resolved by the description in the addon
> page. You're too obsessed with some points.
> 

Yes, that's necessary. Because, your dictionary is not what most people expect
from "Valencian" alone, and this needs to be corrected. No need to start
another discussion, information is available above.

> I think there's nothing wrong with it, if you don't agree say what's wrong for
> you and don't make this harder.
> 

I agree with your description except that in order to make it more complete, I
added universities as well. I included references above.

I suppose you disagree from my translation about the article el/un since in
English there was no article. I don't mind to change it.
I change also the issue of the dictionary to "compatible", since we still may
be massing some subset of words from AVL (and other sources, as well), till we
can finally include them, but our work is actually compatible with official
normatives.

Proposals:

Description (en)
WARNING
This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es). 
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government or
administrative areas that require the use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/) or university guidelines. See [link
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] for a dictionary compatible with 
those criteria.

Description (es)
ADVERTENCIA:
Esta extensión usa el valenciano formulado y regulado de acuerdo con la Real
Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No es apropiado para su uso en ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o
administrativos que requieren del uso de la normativa de la AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/) o de las directrices universitarias. Consulte [este
enlace https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] para un diccionario
compatible con esos criterios.

Description (ca)
ADVERTÈNCIA
Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat d'acord amb la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No és apropiat per al seu ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o
administratius que requereixen de l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/) o de les directrius universitàries. Consulteu [este
enllaç https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari
compatible amb eixos criteris.

Comment 92

[Wil Clouser [:clouserw]]

(In reply to comment #88)
> (In reply to comment #87)
> > (In reply to comment #86)
> > > (In reply to comment #85)
> > > 
> > > If symbols are not a problem, I think it's preferable to include RACV with the
> > > name, since it's not what is commonly known as "Valencian" alone. 
> > > 
> > > Thanks.
> > > 
> > 
> > I'm saying the name and any text around it can't be changed without modifying
> > the actual code on AMO.  In order to be consistent with the rest of the page
> > and get this done in a reasonable time frame the text should go under the
> > "install dictionary" link.  That is the only place I can add text right now.
> > 
> 
> So, as far I understand, current names are harcoded? If this is true, this
> needs to be changed, and I would consider your solution in list page as
> temporary till that can be fixed.
> 

The names come from a shared Mozilla library ( http://svn.mozilla.org/libs/product-details/localeDetails.class.php ).  Changing the name there would mean it would change anywhere it's used on any Mozilla site which is outside the scope of this bug.

Comment 93

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #92)

> The names come from a shared Mozilla library (
> http://svn.mozilla.org/libs/product-details/localeDetails.class.php ). 
> Changing the name there would mean it would change anywhere it's used on any
> Mozilla site which is outside the scope of this bug.
> 

Thanks Wil for the information, we would deal it apart later in another bug.

Comment 94

[Jesper Kristensen]

Maybe it would be good to have the dictionaries beside each other so that users would easily be able to see both and decide which to use?

Is Catalan a valid name for RACV?
Is Valencian a valid name for RACV?
Is one of the names preferred?
Is Catalan a valid name for AVL?
Is Valencian a valid name for AVL?
Is one of the names preferred?

Comment 95

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

Hi Jesper,

in the bug above we have enough information about some of these issues, but I will try to answer you some of the points you might not know in a concise way.

(In reply to comment #94)
> Maybe it would be good to have the dictionaries beside each other so that users
> would easily be able to see both and decide which to use?
> 
> Is Catalan a valid name for RACV?
> Is Valencian a valid name for RACV?
> Is one of the names preferred?

RACV is a linguistic secessionist association since late Francoism dictatorship (before it was not a defender of that ideology), claiming their own norm and stating that there is a Valencian that is not Catalan.
This point of view is not endorsed by neither most worldwide academic circles nor present administrations.

> Is Catalan a valid name for AVL?
> Is Valencian a valid name for AVL?
> Is one of the names preferred?
> 

Valencian is the preferred name for AVL, since that is actually the historical and official name for Catalan language in Valencia region. It states that Valencian is just another name for Catalan (http://www.avl.gva.es/frame_premsa.asp?id=128)

That's the reason we name our products with the two terms.

Comment 96

[Xavi Ivars]

Jesper,

My position about the questions, as well as all valencian universities, the AVL (institution created by the Valencian Government in order to regulate our language, as you can see in our "regional constitution" or Estatut, shown on comment #20), most of the valencian publishers (newpapers, magazines,...) that are written in Valencian, is this:

Valencian is a valid name for what we speak, that is called Catalan in Catalonia and Balearic Islands. So, my language (Valencian) is the same language as Toni's (Catalan), as Dutch (Neederlands) and Flemish (Belgium) are the same language with two names.

What RACV defends (and Bernat and Josue here) is that Valencian and Catalan are not the same, so normatives can't be the same (AVL is almost like IEC, but with some local forms accepted). So they defend that AVL is not for Valencian.

In my opinion:

* Catalan is not a valid name for RACV
* Valencian is not a valid name for RACV, if it doesn't have de non-official adjective before (as Francis Tyers says on #68)
* Preferred name for RACV, in my opinion, is non-official Valencian.
* Catalan is a valid name for AVL, because AVL regulates the same language.
* Valencian is a valid name for AVL, and preferred here in Valencian Autonomous Region.
* Outside Valencian Autonomous Region, or Catalonia (where Catalan is the prefered name), Catalan/Valencian (català/valencià) is the preferred name, both for AVL (valencian regulation institution) as for IEC (Catalan regulation institution).

Comment 97

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #94)
> Maybe it would be good to have the dictionaries beside each other so that users
> would easily be able to see both and decide which to use?

Hi Jesper. It's a lot more complicated than this, and it should be out of the scope of this bug. But as the real goal of this bug seems to give plenty of space to Tony and friends' propaganda, I'll give my point of view too, very brief.

> 
> Is Catalan a valid name for RACV?
> Is Valencian a valid name for RACV?
> Is one of the names preferred?

The historically recognized name is Valencian, and population has always called it that way and feel it like their natural language and different from Catalan. RACV focuses their work on that natural sense and absolutely prefers the name Valencian. That way we could avoid confusion with neighbor languages by using different names for different languages: one name, one linguistic identity, one language.

> Is Catalan a valid name for AVL?
> Is Valencian a valid name for AVL?
> Is one of the names preferred?

The motivation behind many of AVL and IEC actions is helping development of Catalan imperialism. Thus, they prefer all possible names, the more the better. They're interpreting the iso639 registry as a patent registry on language names. Just look at the growing list of iso alternate names for catalan:
CATALAN, BACAVÈS, ROUSILLONESE, VALENCIAN, BALEAR, INSULAR CATALAN, MALLORQUI, MENORQUI, EIVISSENC, ALGHERESE, PALLARESE, RIBAGORÇAN, LLEIDATÀ, AIGUAVIVAN.

This is certainly the root of all problems and confusion.

Comment 98

[Jesper Kristensen]

Wow, please keep the politics out (i know it is hard). What I suggest is something like French, where the language name is written once on the list and there is then two links with explanations in parentheses (AVL/RACV/unofficial/official/whatever). This may help avoid users finding only one of the dictionaries and installing it thinking it is their only option.

What I can filter out from the politics:

Tony and Xavi:
Is Catalan a valid name for AVL? Yes.
Is Valencian a valid name for AVL? Yes.
Is one of the names preferred? Valencian.

Bernat:
Is Catalan a valid name for RACV? No.
Is Valencian a valid name for RACV? Yes.
Is one of the names preferred? Valencian.

So why not rename the dictionary called "Catalan" to "Valencian" so that users can better discover that there are two conflicting opinions here? (The name could maybe be "Catalan/Valencian" but that would be outside scope of this bug)

Comment 99

[Fred Wenzel [:wenzel]]

All of you: Stop the political discussions. This is a technical bugtracker, not a political discussion forum. There are other places on the web where you have plenty of room to discuss such questions.

Much like Chris Hofmann said in comment 73, we need a decision now that helps the users visiting the page, then move on.

I suggest the following:
- renaming the RACV locale code to "ca-ES-puig" or "ca-ES-racv", following the current ISO 639-1 codes.
- changing the entry to "Valencian (RACV)" in the medium term, for now adding "(RACV)" or "(Following RACV normative)" under the "install dictionary" link, as suggested by Wil in comment 83.

Please let me know if that sounds like an acceptable compromise for all involved.

Comment 100

[Fred Wenzel [:wenzel]]

(and I just mid-aired Jesper, sorry about that)

Comment 101

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #91)
> I agree with your description except that in order to make it more complete, I
> added universities as well. I included references above.

It's already very complete. Frankly, I don't understand what you're trying to say in that statement, but it isn't necessary as universities are already included in mentioned areas.

> 
> I suppose you disagree from my translation about the article el/un since in
> English there was no article. I don't mind to change it.

That's the right translation, you know as I do that it changes the meaning.

I've said my last word in comment 89, you aren't improving your proposal and you're repeating some of your previous errors.

The part "that require" translates to "que requieran"(es), "que requerixquen"(Valencian), and "..."(ca). Sorry, help me with the Catalan translation, I think you should have seen the error now. I'm seeing I didn't fixed that in my catalan proposal since I didn't know how it would translate.

The word "WARNING" is unnecessary and isn't on any of the other proposals. I think this description will be visible enough. I used it since I didn't know any other way to emphasize this text in the general description.

The second part is already way too permissive about the AVL compliance of your dictionary, so don't complain that much. You're winning here without fixing anything in your dictionary, and there's a lot to fix.

Please, don't keep going in circles, I've given up a lot already for better agreement. Proposal in comment 89 is the best we could get out.

Comment 102

[Fred Wenzel [:wenzel]]

(In reply to comment #101)
> (In reply to comment #91)
> Proposal in comment 89 is the best we could get out.

The text in comment 89 sounds like a reasonable suggestion for me, as it will likely be more than enough to keep anyone from "accidentally" downloading this if that's not what they want.

Comment 103

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Jesper, Frederic, please let chofmann handle this. He has the relevant background information and the right attitude. More folks commenting is not going to drive this bug to completion. Thanks.

Comment 104

[Jesper Kristensen]

Sorry Axel, it is hard to keep quiet when these people keep spamming my bugmail because I am watching the component this bug is in :(

Comment 105

[Fred Wenzel [:wenzel]]

(In reply to comment #103)
> Jesper, Frederic, please let chofmann handle this. He has the relevant
> background information and the right attitude. More folks commenting is not
> going to drive this bug to completion. Thanks.

While I think that neither Jesper nor myself presented an inappropriate attitude, this works for me. I am sure Chris will find a good solution.

Sorry for stepping in, I get CCed on every AMO bug and get a little nervous when a bug pops up in my bugmail constantly, for now two weeks straight ;)

Comment 106

[Quim Perez]

Bernat, in your comment #106 you said that you don't how to translate catalan. Well I think that you are just joking. I did a simple test, I've installed the catalan/valencian dictionary and the RACV dictionary and I check the proposal in comment #91, and here is the result:

  catalan/valencian dictionary: just 1 word not recognized ("este"). It's true that this dictionary has not all the words yet. But is your racv dictionary  perfect and has all the words or is just "closer" to racv?

  racv dictionary: 5 words have minor changes, I mark them with a '*'. You can see the result here:

ADVERTÈNCIA
Esta extensió *utilisa* el valencià formulat i regulat *d'acort* *con* la *Real*
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No és apropiat per al seu *us* en àmbits educatius, governamentals o
administratius que requerixen de *l'us* de la normativa de l'AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/) o de les directrius universitàries. Consulteu [este
enllaç https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari
compatible *con* eixos criteris.

Comment 107

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #106)
> ADVERTÈNCIA
> Esta extensió *utilisa* el valencià formulat i regulat *d'acort* *con* la
> *Real*
> Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
> No és apropiat per al seu *us* en àmbits educatius, governamentals o
> administratius que requerixen de *l'us* de la normativa de l'AVL
> (http://www.avl.gva.es/) o de les directrius universitàries. Consulteu [este
> enllaç https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari
> compatible *con* eixos criteris.
> 

Please, if we're going to put a Valencian version, don't use this one, I'll do it myself. Thanks.

I hope everyone else has understood that I was asking for help for translating "que requerixquen" to Catalan.

Sorry for the amount of mensages, but there's too much make people adding noise to this bug.

Comment 108

[chris hofmann]

Let me recap where I think we are at.

I think we are going to use the proposal used in comment 89.

adding universities is redundant to education.  

adding "WARNING" is redundant as well since the full text of the short summary is all about where the dictionary might be useful and where it might not.

It seems like the only remaining issue is Bernat's question in comment 107 where he is asking to ensure "que requerixquen" is the correct translation and usage for "is required" as it appears in english translated version.

If that looks ok Wil is ready to push out these changes and we can close the bug.

Comment 109

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #108)

Ok Chris, I make these changes.

In any case, it's not "requerixquen" but "requereixen" or "requerixen". I do not know if Bernat may prefer the second form, so I change it.
http://www.trobat.com/servicis/dvo.php?palabra=requerir&accion=0&Submit=Cercar

Description (en)

This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es). 
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government or
administrative areas that require the use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). See [link
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] for a dictionary compatible with 
those criteria.

Description (es)

Esta extensión usa el valenciano formulado y regulado de acuerdo con la Real
Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No es apropiado para su uso en ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o
administrativos que requieren del uso de la normativa de la AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulte [este
enlace https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] para un diccionario
compatible con esos criterios.

Description (ca)

Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat d'acord amb la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No és apropiat per al seu ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o
administratius que requerixen de l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulteu [este
enllaç https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari
compatible amb eixos criteris.

Comment 110

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #109)

Toni is again changing descriptions without stating what he's changing and why.

Changing "requieran/requerixquen" to "requieren/requerixen" isn't an insignificant change as it might seem since they change the meaning of the description. The second form implies the statement that areas mentioned will always require the other normative. This isn't true and it isn't what we agreed on the English version, besides, making such statements is out of the scope of this description.

Please, stick to proposal in comment 89 since the translations are exactly the same as the English version, except the Catalan one where the word "requereixen" has to be changed to "requerisquen" (taken from the web suggested by Toni). That's the final description for Catalan:
"Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat per la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es).

Este diccionari no és apropiat per al seu
ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o administratius que requerisquen de
l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulteu [link
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari més proper
a la normativa de l'AVL."

Comment 111

[Xavi Ivars]

Bernat,

Could you tell me when on those areas would be required RACV normative?

Education (including universities): the ALWAYS use AVL normative.
Governamentals: AVL is the official normative for the Generalitat Valenciana (Valencian Government), so is the only one they can use.
Administratives: (I understand there "official" paperwork, related to, from or to local/autonomous government): AVL normative is also required for those works.

Also, I agree with Toni that addon 3369 is no closer to AVL, "it's AVL compliant". I'm sure I can find English words that are not in English dictionary, or Spanish words that are in RAE's dictionary that are not on Mozilla Spanish dictionary, but this doesn't convert Spanish dictionary into a dictonary close to RAE.

Comment 112

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #110)

I see. So you are asking for a subjunctive form and I thought it was
indicative. In English, you cannot easily guess... Actually, If you wanted to
make it clear in English, you would need to add a modifier in a way such as
'may require', and I don't personally think that is suitable, because that
would seem ambiguous.
I don't think indicative present tense, what I'm using, is wrong and
incompatible with any hypothetical administration or education center that
could adopt RACV norms; because the sentence would be invalid then for them,
and so it would not apply...

I don't agree with the part 'més proper' -> 'closer' in your proposal, because
you seem to suggest that your dictionary wants to resemble AVL norm, when as
you say in previous comments, it's not precisely in RACV philosophy.

Comment 113

[chris hofmann]

In the English proposal I put together there were two basic sections.  One which qualifies where the dictionary would be useful"

>    This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated 
>    by the Royal Academy of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es). 

and one which disqualifies where it would not, and provides an alturnative:

>    This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, 
>    government or administrative areas that require the use of 
>    AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/). 
>    See [link https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] for a 
>    dictionary compatible with those criteria.

I didn't specify it, but the 'may require' in English is what I intended, but I'd have to say that this is just based on experience in use of English in the US.   There are actually very few cases that I'm aware of here were strict language guidelines from a single normative authority are explicitly 'required' or enforced here.  "English Only" Laws have been proposed here at the National, State, and Local level, but haven't been defined in detail or passed into legislation.  It's much more common that use of English (as defined in from as source such as Websters dictionary, and/or a variety common style guides) is just implied.
In a lot of these cases its up to the author to really figure out if guidelines are provided, and in the absence of no guidelines figure out which style guides and spellings and usage are most appropriate. As Toni put it, it really is abmigous in many cases.   That's why the "may require" seems to me to be most appropriate.  The user of the dictionary or the style should examine the what is most appropriate given the intended application, the audience, and any applicable guidelines or laws that come into play.

Since we have seen that a variety of users from possibly many different countries and regions might be downloading either one of these dictionaries and using them for a variety of different uses, I'd suggest we use "may require."

In the US we have a phrase "Buyer Beware" which means that the person obtaining something should investigate to determine if its right for them and the intended purpose.  I think that is the tone we want to set in this description, and for the vast majority of addons on the site.

Comment 114

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #113)

Ok. Fine for me changing it accordingly.

Description (en)

This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es). 
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government or
administrative areas that may require the use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). See [link
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] for a dictionary compatible with 
those criteria.

Description (es)

Esta extensión usa el valenciano formulado y regulado de acuerdo con la Real
Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No es apropiado para su uso en ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o
administrativos que requieran del uso de la normativa de la AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulte [este
enlace https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] para un diccionario
compatible con esos criterios.

Description (ca)

Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat d'acord amb la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No és apropiat per al seu ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o
administratius que requerisquen de l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulteu [este
enllaç https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari
compatible amb eixos criteris.

Comment 115

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #114)

Toni, you've already tried changing some parts of the description without notice and due to your misunderstanding of English. I don't agree with your changes (more than one) and comment 113 doesn't really ask for them.

I think proposal in comment 89 and correction for Catalan in comment 110 are already enough, and more suitable for this description. Please, let's move on.

Comment 116

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #115)
> (In reply to comment #114)

Bernardo, my attitude has already been patient and positive enough, and I have accepted several changes based on sound criteria. Unless you wanted this bug to last for two weeks more, please, I would ask you to assume comment 114 as final outcome.

Thanks.

Comment 117

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #116)
I don't understand your threat here, you should ask yourself what this bug is about. I've been positive about putting a description for my addon we agreed on, now you're threatening to make it last two weeks more. Nonsense.

In recap, you opened this bug asking for removal, but after denial you seem to have lost direction. It's not clear that user confusion is real as can be seen from web statistics and addon comments, it's just you telling us.

Your goal isn't clear anymore neither. You've stated before you're caring about your users, but now you don't seem much interested in your users by stalling it.

I'd close this bug since I don't think your fuzzy claims justify all the time we're putting here. I can change myself the description and use the one I've proposed with Chris approval. It's clear and in accordance with Mozilla addon policy, I think that's everything needed. So on my part this is closed.

Comment 118

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #117)
> (In reply to comment #116)

I don't pretend to threat.
Now I want close this bug and I'm taking care to finish it properly.
The only difference between your reference and comment 114, as far as I can notice, is the last sentence. Me and other people, we explained different reasons why that should be changed:
* "per a un diccionari compatible amb eixos criteris." >> "per a un diccionari més proper a la normativa de l'AVL."

- It makes little sense to say "close" to a norm we follow, despite we are always a work in progress to improve it. (see comment 111)
- It seems that is suggesting your dictionary wants to resemble AVL norm in some extent, but less than ours. And that is not coherent since you are even using a different alphabet, actually a separate norm, and different philosophy underneath (comment 112).

And that's all.

Comment 119

[chris hofmann]

recapping it sounds like we are down to one sentence to resolve

It is the english sentence:

Bernat's suggestion:
 
   See [ link to https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary closer to the AVL normative."

v. Toni's suggestion: 

  See [link to  https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] for a dictionary compatible with those criteria.


I'd like to suggest an alturnative to these that I hope we can all agree on. I think I agree that the phrase "closer to a normative" is a big ambiguous, but "fully compatible with those criteria" is a goal to strive for but may never be achivied as Toni has recognized with continuing plans for improvement and bug 435797 identifies current short comings.

In doing some research I found one phrase that might work.  It would be this: 

    See [ link to https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] for a dictionary derived from the AVL [and IEC?] normatives.

It seems that the term "based on" or "derived from" are used quite often to describe how a dictionary is developed in the sources I ran across.  

Here are a few links that I ran across with these kind of references to dictionaries.

" It is *derived* *from* American lexicographer Noah Webster and in the United States"   -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster%27s_Dictionary

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/derived

http://www.google.com/search?q=dictionary+based+on
"...Arabic dictionary based on WordNet."
"...This is a Web Sanskrit Dictionary based on..."
"...An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary: Based on the Manuscript Collections of Joseph Boswort..."


Is there a preference for "based on" or "derived from"?

Can either one of these be better translated effectively to both Spanish and Catalan to reflect that AVL (and the IEC) are the guiding source for content and conntinuing work in addon/3368.

Comment 120

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #119)

> Is there a preference for "based on" or "derived from"?
> 
> Can either one of these be better translated effectively to both Spanish and
> Catalan to reflect that AVL (and the IEC) are the guiding source for content
> and conntinuing work in addon/3368.
> 

Both "based on" and "derived from" are fine for me. 

For our work we MUST follow as much as we can these normatives: AVL and IEC, as I explained, despite we use other sources as well (GREC, TERMCAT http://www.termcat.cat, encyclopaedias http://www.enciclopedia.cat/ , etc.).

I submit the translations using "derived from" and "based on" between brackets each option.

Description (en)

This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es). 
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government or
administrative areas that may require the use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). See [link
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] for a dictionary (based on) (derived from) AVL and IEC normatives.

Description (es)

Esta extensión usa el valenciano formulado y regulado de acuerdo con la Real
Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No es apropiado para su uso en ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o
administrativos que requieran del uso de la normativa de la AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulte [este
enlace https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] para un diccionario
(basado en) (derivado de) las normativas de la AVL y el IEC.

Description (ca)

Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat d'acord amb la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
No és apropiat per al seu ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o
administratius que requerisquen de l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). Consulteu [este
enllaç https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] per a un diccionari (basat en) (derivat de) les normatives de l'AVL i l'IEC.

Comment 121

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #119)

> Can either one of these be better translated effectively to both Spanish and
> Catalan to reflect that AVL (and the IEC) are the guiding source for content
> and conntinuing work in addon/3368.
> 

After thinking about for a bit: "derived from" given translations sound artificial in Spanish and Catalan. Maybe better choices would be (en) derived from (es) creado a partir de (ca) creat a partir de.
If this change of verb in translations could be an issue, we could stick to "based on".

Comment 122

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #119)

My concern is that the description for my addon shouldn't include any statements about Toni's addon. I think the statement he's pushing on me doesn't belong to my addon's description, as well as being very questionable.

I think I've already made a good concession by accepting a link to Toni's addon, but putting any of Toni's claims in my addon's description is a bit too much. Any user that might be interested on Toni's addon will follow the link and there they should find any statement or disclaimer by Toni. I requested him to improve his addon description in bug 435797, but instead he closed the bug.

I want Toni to remember this is a description for my addon, so he shouldn't be so authoritative about it.

I've searched for a more generic formula and I think the one that fits best is "might be more suitable for". I think it's exactly what we need as it's enough and it doesn't go too far.

The new descriptions would be:

Description (en)
"This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es).
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and
administrative areas that require use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/).  Add-on [ link to
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] might be more suitable for those cases."

Description (es)
"Esta extensión usa el valenciano formulado y regulado por la Real
Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es).
Este diccionario no es apropiado para su uso en
ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o administrativos que requieran el uso de
la normativa de la AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). El complemento [link to
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] podría ser más conveniente en estos casos."

Description (ca)
"Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat per la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es).
Este diccionari no és apropiat per al seu
ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o administratius que requerisquen de
l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). El complement [link to
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369] podria ser més convenient en estos casos."

Comment 123

[chris hofmann]

re: comment 122

this sounds good to me.

Comment 124

[Wil Clouser [:clouserw]]

Comment #122 sounds good to me also.  Something to keep in mind (apologies for the late notice) but we can't have actual links in the description (bug 343573).  The links in parenthesis are good but the

[link to https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369]

can't be an actual hyperlink - we'll need the full URL in the sentence.

Comment 125

[Quim Perez]

I would like to add two minor changes in order to make clear that the official and state-bound entity created to regulate Valencian orthography is Academia Valenciana de la Llengua (AVL). 

People who looks for a valencian dictionary don't know the difference between RACV and AVL, and don't want to follow the links to understand the problem, they just want to write good valencian. Only the people who wants a RACV dictionary, know the difference betweeb RACV and AVL.  

1)  "This extension uses Valencian" should be   "This extension uses non-official Valencian". If you don't like "non-official" say "non-standard"

2) "might be more suitable for those cases." should be "is more suitable for those cases." 

With this I think that we can close the bug. We all have lost a lot of time with this bug.   

Comment 126

[chris hofmann]

****,

The rational for not using official or unofficail was provide back in comment 38, 40 and a few other places I believe.  Official just has to many possible meanings and underlying connotations to be useful, with out going into detail about what it might mean.  Its perfectly legitimate usage for any organization to create something and call it "offically created and provided by the RACV", so in that sense the RACV can call this thier "official dictionary."  On the other hand your comment in 111 is also correct use of word "official".   So if we describe the dictionary as both official and unofficial what value have we really provided to the user.   

You have made the claim that people don't know the difference between the RACV and the AVL but we don't have data to support that as far as I can tell.  We do have data that says users don't seem to be confused in large part, and the people that are visiting the pages and downloading the dictionaries are doing so in the rough percentages that we might expect given their target audiences, and with the changes above we ensure that if users do get confused by the dictionary the are referred to other choices that are available, and more information to help them decide which one might be correct for the intended purpose.   This is an improvement to the current situation and I really don't think its valuable to revisit issues that I think we have all worked together to understand and resolve. 

Comment 127

[Quim Perez]

Hi Chris,

I understand what you say. In Spain we have less confusion with the term "official" when you talk about official it often means government. 

For me this is the same problem when a user tells me that some page don't render well in Firefox, and I have to explain that the page is not W3C compliant but IE compliant. The user don't know about W3C and IE protocols, they just want to browse the web. The problem here is the same W3C is AVL, and IE is RACV. 

Never mind go ahead with comment 122 and just change "is more suitable for
those cases." 

****.

Comment 128

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #123)

Hi,

"more suitable" is the same case as "closer" explained before. So I would change it accordingly and I would use full URL instead of links, as comment 124 points out (I hope these are clickable)

Description (en)
"This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es).
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and
administrative areas that require use of AVL normative (http://www.avl.gva.es/). This add-on (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369) may be suitable for those cases."

Description (es)
"Esta extensión usa el valenciano formulado y regulado por la Real Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es). 
Este diccionario no es apropiado para su uso en ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o administrativos que requieran del uso de la normativa de la AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). Este complemento (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369) puede ser conveniente en esos casos."

Description (ca)
"Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat per la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es).
Este diccionari no és apropiat per al seu ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o administratius que requerisquen de l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). Este complement (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369) pot ser convenient en eixos casos."


By the way, our dictionary has links to our project page and sources used. I think we have showed our commitment to official norms during all this text. If anyone here questioned it, they could reopen the bug.

Comment 129

[Bernat]

(In reply to comment #127)

> For me this is the same problem when a user tells me that some page don't
> render well in Firefox, and I have to explain that the page is not W3C
> compliant but IE compliant. The user don't know about W3C and IE protocols,
> they just want to browse the web. The problem here is the same W3C is AVL, and
> IE is RACV. 
If humans spoke web protocols and behaved like computers then this analogy might work. I have a better one, if you're forced to use W3C standards then you'll need to know about W3C, the same goes for our case. Please, following this path we're going backwards.

(In reply to comment #127)
> I understand what you say. In Spain we have less confusion with the term
> "official" when you talk about official it often means government. 
The second paragraph already explains what the word "official" should mean here, so you shouldn't feel concerned about that.

(In reply to comment #128)

This isn't improving anything. Please, use my proposal in comment 122 since I think it's a better well-known generic formula in this context.

Comment 130

[chris hofmann]

It looks like the difference between the en-US versions in comment 122 and comment 128 are only the use of "may" or "might"

   Add-on [ link to https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 ] *might* be more suitable for those cases."

v.

  This add-on (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369) *may* be suitable for those cases."


May and might are pretty much the same in English so I'm not sure its worth spending any extra time word smithing the small difference between those two words considering the impact it might have.  I think *might* reflects the "Buyer Beware" tone that I think is valuable for all addon summaries that we post on the site. I also believe it expresses addon/3369 as a "polite alternative" in this usage from Websters ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/might )

Bernat,

I'd suggest that the version in comment 122 solves 99% of what is needed to resolve this bug so I would address the things Wil mentioned in comment 124 about cleaning up the "[ link to http:///... ] " text with a more simple form like in Toni's version and then check in those changes.  I put the [link to http://addons ] text in my orginal suggestion because I wasn't sure exactly how links were handled on AMO.   That text is a bit awkward in the version from comment 122, and flows a bit more smoothly in the comment 128 version.  If bug 343573 gets fixed then it would be good if the link can be made clickable, but it can't happen now.

Comment 131

[Bernat]

Chris,
Sorry, I wasn't concerned at all by the links, I thought it would be worked out at another level. This is no problem, I can rewrite them following style in comment 128.

Description (en)
"This extension uses Valencian as formulated and regulated by the Royal Academy
of Valencian Culture (http://racv.es).
This dictionary is not appropriate for use in education, government and
administrative areas that require use of AVL normative
(http://www.avl.gva.es/). The add-on (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369) might be more suitable
for those cases."

Description (es)
"Esta extensión usa el valenciano formulado y regulado por la Real
Academia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es).
Este diccionario no es apropiado para su uso en
ámbitos educativos, gubernamentales o administrativos que requieran el uso de
la normativa de la AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). El complemento (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369) podría ser más conveniente en
estos casos."

Description (ca)
"Esta extensió utilitza el valencià formulat i regulat per la Reial
Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana (http://racv.es).
Este diccionari no és apropiat per al seu
ús en àmbits educatius, governamentals o administratius que requerisquen de
l'ús de la normativa de l'AVL (http://www.avl.gva.es/). El complement (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/3369) podria ser més convenient en
estos casos."

Comment 132

[Toni Hermoso Pulido]

(In reply to comment #131)

As far as this concrete bug is concerned, we can stop it here for improving a bit present situation.

Cosmetically:
Last descriptions should improve spacings (remove one newline after "uso en" / "al seu"), and I would change:

(en) those cases (es) esos casos (ca) eixos casos.

Comment 133

[chris hofmann]

looks good.  lets get the site updated.

thanks again to everyone for working together on this and getting it resolved.

Comment 134

[Pere Pasqual]

I've been following this bug without intervention on the last days. For me, description as in comment #120 is the most accurate one.

Text in comment #122 and below implies that dictionary in https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3369 "may" or "might" be more suitable to those cases in with AVL normative is required... but it IN FACT is THE ONLY ONE of the two "Valencian" dictionaries which fits this requirement. It doesn't "may" or "might", it does.

Comment 135

[Bernat]

Thanks to everyone who has helped, it has been pretty unpleasant at times, but I think we've got it right and we should feel satisfied. I guess it will get better for Toni when links get fixed.

Comment 136

[chris hofmann]

Bernat,  you should get those changes pushed on AMO so we can close this bug.  I think Wil can do it if you're busy and need a hand.

Comment 137

[Bernat]

Sorry, I was a bit busy checking addons with Firefox3, but it's done now. Please verify that I haven't messed them up and we can close it.

I've added a support email address so that users can send me feedback more easily. From now on, any problem or question can be reported there, I'll be pleased to answer them all.

Comment 138

[Wil Clouser [:clouserw]]

I just doubled checked what's on the site and it's a combination of comment 131 and comment 132.  Thanks everyone -> FIXED.