Closed Bug 436229 Opened 16 years ago Closed 16 years ago

Create A New Group on news.mozilla.org - mozilla.support.screenshots

Categories

(mozilla.org :: Discussion Forums, task)

Product:
mozilla.org
Component:
Discussion Forums
Type:
task
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
normal

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED FIXED

People

(Reporter: jay, Assigned: justdave)

Details

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080219 Firefox/2.0.0.12 Navigator/9.0.0.6
Build Identifier: 

There is no place on the support server for a user to post a screenshot regarding a support issue where posting a representative shot would better explain the particular issue in order to get the best available answer. The poster could of course post a link to his/her website if they have one or post a link to one of the free image hosting services such as Photobucket or Imageshack but we have to take in to consideration the computer awareness of the individual poster as to their knowledge related to using one of these services. Since the poster already knows how to post to the group, then posting an image is simply a matter of attachment.

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1.
2.
3.
The group must be moderated as per Giganews requirements. That should not present a problem as some groups are already moderated. 
We should use the right tool for the right job. IMO a newsgroup is not the right tool for every job; in this case (hosting short-term binary images for support issues), the occupants of the support groups should, as you mention, recommend somewhere like ImageShack <http://www.imageshack.us/>. 

It's extremely easy to use. Find the file on disk, enter your email address (although I think even that's optional), reply to the confirmation mail if you entered an email and you're done.

Example, which took me all of 30 seconds to create:
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1919/browsersupportfg7.gif

Gerv

Unfortunate that the lack of posting acumen by some users in need of support is not taken into consideration. It seems to me at this point that allowing the posting of images, even by moderation, is not in the cards because of the fear of abuse moreso than the primary need and that is, the user needing support. It's easy for you, it's easy for me, it's easy for those that are familiar with the basics of ImageShack and Photobucked, etc. Attaching an image is far easier, even for the newbie. It's a matter of priority and that priority should be the needs of the community as a whole.

Should we, as an alternative, provide instructions as to how to use one of the image hosting sites? My answer to that is a resounding "no" simply because we have the resources to allow the posting of support oriented images.


Jay, I think you are arguing a straw man.

Why not write the instructions for using ImageShack, and then compare them to the instructions for using a newsgroup?

"OK, you need to subscribe to a new newsgroup called mozilla.support.screenshots. Click on this link. Then you need to create a new message to the group, and attach the file. You do that by clicking the "Attach" button, and finding the file in the filepicker. Send the message, then come back here and tell us what the title of the message is."

is hardly less complicated than:

"Go to http://www.imageshack.us/. Click the "Browse..." button and find your file in the filepicker. Hit "host it." Copy and paste the URL from the resulting "Direct Link" box into your reply."

In the one case per year where someone is really stuck and entirely afraid of the world wide web, you or another support person can offer to let them email it to you and forward it to the group for them. The ten seconds per year it'll take you to do that has more than been wiped out by the amount of time we've spent discussing this bug already.

Gerv

Or how about composing an email to firefox-support-screenshots@lists.mozilla.org and dragging the file in question into your compose window?  That's what most users do now because it's easy and there, but to the existing newsgroup, and then Giganews nukes their message because it had a binary attachment.  I think what Jay is saying is people are already doing it this way, so they obviously know this method already, so we should give them a place where it actually works.
Actually I had no idea as to "people are already ..........." but if that works then so be it, whatever it takes.

Forgot to add ... Giganews wouldn't be involved because the .screenshots group would be moderated much the same as MTMM where moderated posting of images is allowed now.

/me shrugs.

OK, if Dave doesn't think it'll cause problems with our relationship with Giganews, then I guess I don't mind. mozilla.support.screenshots it is.

Gerv
Assignee: gerv → justdave
MTMM doesn't conflict with Giganews so .screenshots shouldn't either. It's worth a shot anyways but now you'll have to appoint a moderator to make it work. Thanks, I'll help out as time permits. 
This is a bad idea.
If you're helping someone who is subscribed via mailing list or Google Groups, this will not work, because:
a) The mailing list subscriber would have to subscribe to the support-screenshots mailing list *before* the screenshot is posted.
b) Google Groups does not accept binary posts, so if the user is on Google, the screenshot will not appear in the mozilla.support.screenshots equivalent.
(In reply to comment #10)

ML users already know how to subscribe to a list -- they'd just need to decide
whether an extra subscription is worth it or if they'd rather use some other 
way of showing a screenshot.

Is there some way of preventing Google from archiving the new group, so that 
Google users won't be confused by their inability to get a post through?


(In reply to comment #3)

> Should we, as an alternative, provide instructions as to how to use one of the
> image hosting sites? My answer to that is a resounding "no" simply because we
> have the resources to allow the posting of support oriented images.

Until someone qualified steps forward to moderate, we don't quite have all the 
resources allow posting.

AFAIK, no one who's been told in the support groups how to use Imageshack 
et. al has been stymied so far, though a couple have said they'd rather 
be able to post images to a newsgroup.
It is never a bad idea to provide 100% support to any user needing it. Users will always find the smallest excuse to uninstall an application and use "the other guy's". 

The .screenshots group is by far the easiest and most convenient venue to post a visual reference because, IHMO, every user that knows how to post also knows how to attach an image and if, by chance, they don't then that's what the n.m.s.thunderbird and .seamonkey are there for, to instruct and answer technical questions to learn now to use the apps,etc.

Regardless of the initial intention of MTMM, I don't see why we can't allow the posting of support images there as it's hardly used any more now and it's already moderated to boot.


My argument isn't about postability, but readability.
If I read a post via support-firefox that says "I've posted an accompanying image in support-screenshots", I can subscribe to support-screenshots, but I still won't see said image, because it was sent before I subscribed.

If I read a post via the mozilla.support.firefox Google Group that says "I've posted an accompanying screenshot in mozilla.support.screenshots", it won't matter if the mozilla.support.screenshots Google Group is read-only; the screenshot won't be there for me to read (i.e. see :-) ).

Even in cases where both the reader and the poster are using news.mozilla.org, the reader would have to subscribe to a separate newsgroup, and search for a specific post. With an image hosting service like Flickr.com, the reader just has to click a link, that's it. And /that/ works 100% of the time.

The difference in postability is not large, but the difference in readability is significant, and what we gain in not having to explain how to use an image hosting service, we replace with explanations of why not everyone can see the screenshot, and/or instructions on how to view the screenshot.

Then there's the moderation factor. A person posts in the support newsgroup, and says "I've posted an accompanying screenshot in support.screenshots". But that screenshot may not be there yet, because it's waiting for approval. If we auto-approve people, there will likely be support discussion in the screenshots newsgroup (which has happened in MTMM).

Plus, a screenshots newsgroup will have very little if any decrease on the number of people trying to attach screenshots to their support messages. Their messages will still no get posted, and that is the /real/ problem.
The real tragedy is that the groups are text-only and anything otherwise is either not allowed, not supported, delayed by moderation, etc., ad nauseum. I suggest you find a way to fully support the user or change servers. But you're right in light of moderation being a stumbling block because of the delay involved. It's a crutch at best and nothing short of a catch-22 situation which is a sad fact regarding a support venue. 

I didn't realize mailman didn't have commands to call older messages.  Other ml software does, but I don't think it would be worth switching to a new ml system.  People who wanted to provide support only via lists would need to subscribe and stay subscribed, but I don't see that as a showstopper.

The delay of moderation I don't see as a showstopper either -- users should just be made aware that the delay exists.
I don't really see anything that would be a "showstopper". Good point regarding the delay in moderation. As far as that ONE user per year, take Phil Jones for instance, that is a prime example of a user that has difficulty in using a 3rd party venue to post an image. In his case, it would be much easier to post the image to the group as an attachment. I'm sure there are others with similar disabilities or worse.

In "my experience"; I've tried places like PhotoBucket ImageShake and others; for posting images. Everyone I've had experience with request me to set up an account (username/password). And after doing so I am inundated with Spam and pop-ups I don't wish to see.

I don't wish to spread my personal information all around the internet. Making easier for someone to hack with each additional account.

Pardon me, if I didn't get wording phrasing, or punctuation correct my apologies. 
Taking into consideration the number of votes and positive comments, general positive interest in implementing this new group, let's create the group now.


(In reply to comment #19)

If a moderated group/list is created, but there's no moderator yet, any posts made to it would only go into the limbo of the moderation queue.  IMO, to avoid user frustration, there needs to be a moderator ready to start as soon as the group is created.

Goes along with my comment to get it created - all encompassing. But let me clarify my position, it's the "group" I want created.
create a Pics group, let it expire after 14 days (keep the volume low), have it moderated if must be 
BUT
in all that's holy to any of you - keep Chris Ilias OUT OF IT - he will kill the group as sure as he killed MTMM.

reg
Quite inappropriate to enter a comment based on a personal issue. Please refrain from spamming the bug and keep the comments appropriate to the issue at hand. Resolving the bug in a positive fashion can surely be hindered by such comments. Thanks.
Status: NEW → ASSIGNED
IMO, the problems Chris has brought up outweigh the advantages (if there are any). I think "post it to webspace" continues to be the best solution.  As Gervase mentions earlier (Comment 4), that's hardly rocket surgery and if the user has no personal webspace or clues as to how to access it (even the free space his ISP probably provides), any image site is going to self-explain how to register and upload.
From experience, 13 years running the Netscape Secnews server, managing several AOL forums and Netscape Forums as well as others, it is my learned opinion that jumping through that extra hoop of requiring the user to use a 3rd party to post an image is counter-productive and that posting the support oriented image by attachment is far more intuitive and more user-friendly. Also, in some "text-only" forums the links do not display as clickable which is even more frustrating. Not everybody is an advanced or intermediate user. It's the newbie that needs the most help and making it easier to post the problem results in a quicker and easier solution.

Sounds like another excuse to implement bug 403970.
If a monitor is required then I shall volunteer my services in that role for this group.
In my view, a binary would be allowed as long as it was a screen shot, which should suffice to keep volumes low and not impede the relationship with Giganews wrt binary groups
A FAQ of sorts would be used in the group that provides the information necessary to use the group (i.e. how to do it) but that FAQ would also include the information necessary to post the image using imageshack as well.
There would be some delay while the post is approved, but I think I can minimize that

Requirements would be a 'screen shot' binary, that pertains to the other groups on the server only, i.e. wrt Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey et al

feel free to contact me via email wrt this
(In reply to comment #26)
> Sounds like another excuse to implement bug 403970.
> 

Excellent excuse, go for it.
I was once a newbie and found it extremely hard to explain in plain text what problem am I having (although I still have the problem)

A picture tells a thousand words ..............................
The mailman interface for this group has been created, and a ticket opened with Giganews to set it up on their end.  Google should pick it up overnight, since they poll us for config now, however, given the binary nature of this newsgroup and that it's a weekend, I don't expect to have it actually working on Giganews before Monday or Tuesday, and since Giganews is the link between mailman and Google, the group is kind of useless until then, so hold off on trying to use it until I give the go-ahead.

moz.champion@sympatico.ca has been set as the moderator, but the group has been set up as an "open list, moderated newsgroup" which means posts from anyone who's a subscriber to the list version (or any list on the mailman server actually) or on the "allow posts from this address" set by the moderator will be able to post freely.  That setting can be changed of course.
Whiteboard: waiting for Giganews
CCing Gerv, re comment 14 . Since this bug was created, we haven't had one instance of someone having to explain how to use an image hosting service.
Heh, we can still call it off if you decided you don't want it now.  As long as I yank the config in the next 5 1/2 hours it'll be like it never happened.
er, 8 1/2 hours.  I'm thinking in the wrong timezone. :)
As one who has cast a vote for this bug, I'd like to see it through.
Yes, there are free image hosting services out there at the present, but like everything else they may disappear or become pay-for services.

This bug was filed, voted, approved, and wanted by a large group of folks providing support. Not to mention moz.champion@sympatico.ca and his offer to contribute his time to get the group going.

All of the above considered this to be an enhancement to the support effort.

Let's not kill it on one persons opinion.
 
(In reply to comment #35)
> This bug was filed, voted, approved, and wanted by a large group of folks
> providing support. 

There was no vote, and it was approved before I posted my first comment.

> Let's not kill it on one persons opinion.

Actually, you can add me to Blinky's opinion in comment 24. ;-)

But if you want to do the math then...
In mozilla.support.firefox, there are 230 mailing list subscribers and 1666 Google Groups subscribers. In the past month there have been 261 messages posted via Google Groups or the mailing list in the Firefox support group alone. These are all people who are going to be affected by this bug, because they will not be able to view screenshots per comment 14.

How does that math add up against having no instance of having to instruct a user how to use an image hosting service?
Plus there were 7 instances of people using links to other services:
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/8571683febfd0e7f>
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/c436165049800aed>
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/f7496d6fdc7f94d2>
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/52dd40d154ff41e3>
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/fa11143def1e539e>
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/59d825e006ce7a40>
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/12c089d3f61365c0>


In addition to the many reasons why this request is a bad idea, what about the fact that you have one screenshots newsgroup for all products? A SeaMonkey supporter/user subscribed to the support-screenshots mailing list is going to get many more Firefox and Thunderbird screenshots sent to their mailbox, then SeaMonkey screenshots.
The best feature of using nntp is that you can subscribe to a group and only see headers unless you actually click on the message. The answer is very simple: if you want to offer support using the screenshot venue, you simply subscribe ahead of time, then click on the appropriate headers.
Certainly a webhosting service could accomplish the same agenda, but mailnews is not about using a browser, but using the tools provided within mailnews.
With that in mind, your comment would seem to be somewhat supercilious.
We think it's a good idea, you don't. Deal.

(In reply to comment #37)
> The best feature of using nntp 

My argument has always been about Google Groups and mailing list subscribers, not NNTP. In fact, the problem is that this is a very NNTP-centric solution, that ignores the fact that the newsgroups are mirrored. If Google Groups subscribers subscribe beforehand, they still aren't going to see the images in the mozilla.support.screenshots newsgroup, because Google Groups does not support binaries.

What about users who are looking for help? Are you going to tell them to subscribe before you post an image? When instead you could upload the screenshot to an image hosting service, and have the image available to the user right away?
Essentially you seem to be saying that since not everyone can utilize the group, there shouldn't be one?  That unless a method/venue can be found that is accessible to everyone there shouldn't be any attempt to provide any sort of solution using available resources? 
The provision of the group does not make any other method of image provision unsuitable or even less desired. It simply allows an additional means of doing the same thing. Users can utilize any method they are comfortable with and capable of.

A user looking for assistance has to subscribe to the group, just like he/she has to to utilize the other lists/groups.  He/she subscribes, then posts, only in this group he posts a screenshot from a Mozilla product (or about a Mozilla product).

A user looking for assistance and using a image hosting service would have to find out how to do such as well and then do it. So essentially there is little difference.

The group can be provided now, with current resources from Mozilla. It can accomplish a task for some users, and can be utilized in addition to other methods if so desired. Not providing it simply because it isn't a solution suitable to everyone is not using what resources you have to the best of your ability.


If If Google groups will not  support Binaries . Then that means it will exclusive to Mozilla. And that's what we want. We don't want it open to all USENET anyway. That would keep much unwanted traffic away.
(In reply to comment #39)
> Essentially you seem to be saying that since not everyone can utilize the
> group, there shouldn't be one?  That unless a method/venue can be found that is
> accessible to everyone there shouldn't be any attempt to provide any sort of
> solution using available resources? 

No, I'm saying the cons far outweigh the pros, and that there's no need for this newsgroup. I've always preferred making Google Groups access read-only, because of the spam. In that case, (IMO) it's worth decreasing accessibility. In this case, there's no problem being fixed, and we're creating new problems.

> The provision of the group does not make any other method of image provision
> unsuitable or even less desired. It simply allows an additional means of doing
> the same thing. Users can utilize any method they are comfortable with and
> capable of.
> 
> A user looking for assistance has to subscribe to the group, just like he/she
> has to to utilize the other lists/groups.  He/she subscribes, then posts, only
> in this group he posts a screenshot from a Mozilla product (or about a Mozilla
> product).
> 
> A user looking for assistance and using a image hosting service would have to
> find out how to do such as well and then do it. So essentially there is little
> difference.
> 
> The group can be provided now, with current resources from Mozilla. It can
> accomplish a task for some users, and can be utilized in addition to other
> methods if so desired. Not providing it simply because it isn't a solution
> suitable to everyone is not using what resources you have to the best of your
> ability.

You're looking at it from a postability standpoint, not a readability standpoint. If said user posts an image to support.screenshots, how is a Google Groups support contributor (e.g. Fox on the run) supposed to help that person? Potential new support contributors via the mailing list will not be able to help that person either. We're going to have to wait for the image to be approved before helping the user. And those who want to help SeaMonkey users or Thunderbird users are going to get spammed with Firefox screenshots.

Other than one case before this bug was filed (Phillip), who in the support newsgroups has had to explain how to use an image hosting service? And provide links! Are we going to create a newsgroup because of one use case?
Let me reiterate and put this discussion back on track.

1. This bug is not about mailing lists or subscriptions
2. This bug is for creating a group to post screenshots
3. This bug does not concern Google Groups or Giganews but rather news.mozilla.org
4. This bug/discussion is not about personality conflicts nor is it a venue to post "you said ...." sometime in the past nor is it a discussion about "when" a vote took place, in fact, votes started pouring in almost immediately after the bug was filed IIRC and I made the announcement on NMO. If it was 5 minutes afterwards or 5 days afterwards, it doesn't matter.

news.mozilla.org should be a venue for providing the same support as it did when we hosted it on the secnews server where image posting was allowed in ALL support groups AFAIK, it was on Secnews. If it means breaking away from GG and/or Giganews then so be it.

My recommendation (ammended a bit) is to allow image posting on ALL support groups in the same post as the original. The user getting an answer is THE most important factor, not someone's personal view regarding their own agenda. 

As regards mailing list subscribers - they know in advance or should know that subscribing to certain groups what is entailed in and what is to be expected when subscribing. We can't single out subscribers as a criteria for not allowing the posting of images, IMHO.

As as aside, I "wizard", manage and moderate many AOL support venues. I post to only one but only manage the rest. I have not had ONE single complaint regarding the posting of a related image or attached image in ANY of the support venues.

I didn't file this bug for ME but rather for the USERS, lets keep that in mind.

Cheers


(In reply to comment #42)
> 4. This bug/discussion is not about personality conflicts nor is it a venue to
> post "you said ...." sometime in the past nor is it a discussion about "when" a
> vote took place, in fact, votes started pouring in almost immediately after the
> bug was filed IIRC and I made the announcement on NMO. If it was 5 minutes
> afterwards or 5 days afterwards, it doesn't matter.

You posted in mozilla.general. If you announced this bug to the 1666 mozilla.support.firefox Google Groups subscribers and mentioned that they aren't going to see a single image on Google Groups, I'm sure you would have received a different response. :-)

> My recommendation (ammended a bit) is to allow image posting on ALL support
> groups in the same post as the original. The user getting an answer is THE most
> important factor, not someone's personal view regarding their own agenda. 

A separate newsgroup for screenshots does not fix that. As I said in comment 14:
"Plus, a screenshots newsgroup will have very little if any decrease on the number of people trying to attach screenshots to their support messages. Their messages will still not get posted, and that is the /real/ problem."

> news.mozilla.org should be a venue for providing the same support as it did
> when we hosted it on the secnews server where image posting was allowed in ALL
> support groups AFAIK, it was on Secnews. If it means breaking away from GG
> and/or Giganews then so be it.

If it means breaking away from Google Groups and Giganews, then creating a group while we still use Google Groups and Giganews is pointless.

Like it or not, news.mozilla.org is not secnews. If you want secnews, use secnews. News.mozilla.org groups are mirrored with mailing lists and a web interface. People accessing the groups via mailing list or Google group number in the hundreds; and we shouldn't ignore them.

> As regards mailing list subscribers - they know in advance or should know that
> subscribing to certain groups what is entailed in and what is to be expected
> when subscribing. We can't single out subscribers as a criteria for not
> allowing the posting of images, IMHO.

Ditto for NNTP subscribers.

> I didn't file this bug for ME but rather for the USERS, lets keep that in mind.

That's noble Jay; but I don't think any us are not trying to think in the best interest of users. I read/post to Mozilla newsgroups via NNTP.

Chris I know how to post to service such a Photobucket and such. Don't resort
trying to make me look like an idiot. I've said That every service I've been
suggested to go to wnats me to create a new username and password (open an
account before I ca even upload anything. with all Internet schemes going on I
don't feel comfortable having spread my personal infoe all around the internet.

I voted for this bug. Because when some one ask a question That I explain bette
with one or two small .png images; than I can with a whole page of
instructions. And in those whole page of instructions I risk mis-spelling of
words or using the wrong same sounding word (that is spelled correctly) or
leave off part of the word and change the whole meaning of what I intend to
describe.

We are not planning to upload the video version of war and peace. More than
likely it will be screen-shots of Preference windows with appropriate items
checked. or something equivalent.

My Apologies for doing this in this comment. But I feel I must defend myself
from comments about my character and intelligence.

<http://imageshack.us/> does not require a username/password.
Anything not related to the original bug filed is off-topic. The bug that I filed has nothing to do with Google Groups or Giganews nor does it have anything to do with any of the 3rd party image hosting sites/vendors, etc. although Imageshack and Photobucket were referenced in deference to the issue at hand. Please note that I said, "There is no place on the support server for a user to post a screenshot". "Support server, meaning news.mozilla.org, not GG or Giganews.

bug 403970 if implemented will/should solve this issue once and for all.

>> Like it or not, news.mozilla.org is not secnews

Didn't say it was and didn't say "we did it there, so you should do it here" - both news servers were located on the same machine is what was said/meant, and just the fact that NMO was hosted on the same server and images were allowed to be posted there and should be carried over to the present NMO. Users should be allowed to post their problem completely and if that means posting a referenced image directly on the server then so be it, provide the means. So as to not further confuse the issue, let's just say the former location of NMO rather than the "if you don't like it, then post somewhere else" attitude.

Either fix the bug or mark it wontfix, further discussion is non-productive as the case has already been made.







(In reply to comment #42)

> 1. This bug is not about mailing lists or subscriptions

All the mozilla.* groups are gated to mailing lists -- are you suggesting that this one shouldn't be gated, in light of the problems Chris has pointed out?  ISTM that would create an even more confusing situation, with some groups having lists and others not.
I'm interested in having the capability to post related images to posts where warranted. If mailing lists are involved then the subscribers should be aware of any caveats involved and take appropriate steps accordingly. Subscribers that are not happy can unsubscribe and access the group traditionally by subscribing to the group, not the mailing list. Relying on past experience with image posting permissions, we're not talking about multi-megabytes of images being posted in every thread. In fact, the reverse is true - an occasional at best occurence. Nevertheless, the ability should be there. In other forums that I manage and have managed in the past, the posting of images and/or attachments hasn't been a problem. IMHO, subscribing to a mailing list is secondary to direct access.

(In reply to comment #48)
> IMHO, subscribing to a mailing list is secondary to direct access.

Interaction via mailing list *is* direct access in the case of the mozilla lists/groups.

> If mailing lists are involved then the subscribers should be aware
> of any caveats involved and take appropriate steps accordingly.

The only way I can think of to do that is to post info periodically, to all the support lists/groups, to make sure list subscribers know what their options are if they want to use the screenshot list/group.
According to Dave's most recent post, the list now exists (although I can't see it on news.mozilla.org yet). Given that, let's give it a couple of months. If no-one uses it, we can delete it. If it gets used, it can stay.

Gerv

Re comment #49 - what I mean by direct access is the user configures news.mozilla.org in their news reader and subscribes to x number of groups.

Insofar as posting alerts as to how things work, that's how it's been done AND being done in other venues I manage and have managed in the past. It works ..

Re comment #50 - I can go with that - anything that will work.


(In reply to comment #50)
> According to Dave's most recent post, the list now exists (although I can't see
> it on news.mozilla.org yet). 

The newsgroup has not been created on news.mozilla.org yet.

> Given that, let's give it a couple of months. If
> no-one uses it, we can delete it. If it gets used, it can stay.

That's what I'm afraid of. My argument is not about whether or not the newsgroup will be used, but that it will prevent non-NNTP users from being able to contribute. If a user posts a screenshot to mozilla.support.screenshots, Google Groups and most mailing list users will not be able to see it, thus not be able to help.
Mailing list users will be able to see them, but only if they subscribe to the support-screenshots list.  Users on Google Groups will not be able to see them because Google doesn't carry binaries.

From experience, believe me when I say that there will be plenty enough contributors that access NMO via a news reader irrespective of the mailing list.

And if someone on GG is desparate enough that they actually MUST see the screenshot then they will subscribe to NMO via a news reader. But I think this a rather remote circumstance to say the least.

We should not be depending on NNTP contributors to pick up the slack; and we should not be preventing people from contributing based on their preference for a web interface or mailing list. 
Never said or meant picking up any slack and also never said or meant that we would be preventing anyone from contributing in the context of my reply. What I DID say/mean is that support will not be lacking contributions from those that are now subscribed via the news readers. Contributions, IMHO, from those on the mailing list will also not suffer just because we create a screenshot group or allow screenshots in the groups themselves. There will be just as much support and possibly even moreso once the screenshots are allowed. But surely there won't be less.

(In reply to comment #56)

If some one using GG or the ml is helping someone, and the need for a screenshot arises, should he tell the user to please post it to one of the web services where he can see it or should he bow out at that point and ask someone else to take over the case? 


No idea, we haven't gotten there yet. And when/if it does arise I feel sure that the correct scenario will take place to everyone's satisfaction simply because we'll see to it that it does, won't we. If Dave's suggestion comes to fruition then it will be a moot point.

The group is up, but not accepting posts.
I get this on an attempted post, I don't think this is the normal moderator approval notification (Or is it)
Your mail to 'Support-screenshots' with the subject

    A place to "show" your problem

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

    Message has implicit destination

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:


Did you send it to the newsgroup, or the mailing list? If the mailing list, was the address in the To:, CC:, or BCC: header?
Here's my "sent" copy:
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:53:36 -0400
From: JoeS <joesab2005@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird/3.0b1pre (Windows; 20080824031147)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: mozilla.support.screenshots
Subject: A place to "show" your problem
Content-Type: multipart/related;
 boundary="------------000906070304040105040202"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------000906070304040105040202
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It was html only.


(In reply to comment #14)
> there will likely be support discussion in the screenshots
> newsgroup (which has happened in MTMM).

It didn't take long for that one to come true. 
<news://news.mozilla.org:119/mailman.353.1219781413.3597.support-screenshots@lists.mozilla.org>
<news://news.mozilla.org:119/mailman.357.1219781874.3597.support-screenshots@lists.mozilla.org>

That discussion belongs in the support.seamonkey newsgroup, and there are no references the screenshots in support.seamonkey.
In that case the moderator needs to handle it, that's his job. Dan said he is going to post a guideline.

The second link is to a post *by Dan*. 
So, are you suggesting that the moderator cannot post a welcome message to the newly created group nor can he from time to time post an informative message to the group as it relates to the posting of screenshots or anything else that may be on the order of "strictly business"? I think what's needed is a bit more constructive criticism and positive discussion to make this work. I do in fact agree on one negative note and that is the time between screenshot post and release by the moderator. Perhaps we need more than one moderator for which I'll gladly volunteer.

The second link points to a message posted by Dan, in which he is trying to help Phillip with his SeaMonkey problem. There's nothing about screenshots in the message.
And the issue has been addressed in the FAQ which was just posted.

There is a 'learning' curve associatted with all new formats/venues/procedures, and solely because I am the moderator I am not exempt from such.
As you guys have already discovered, I got confirmation from Giganews this morning that the group is live.  I've unhidden it from the public list in mailman.
Status: ASSIGNED → RESOLVED
Closed: 16 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Whiteboard: waiting for Giganews
Please lets not spam the bug with personal "I told you so" issues. Please do this via private email or in the .general group, thanks.

Yes, there is a "learning curve" and these issues should and will be addressed by the moderator(s) as this is only in its startup phase and will smooth out as the group awareness progresses. Dan and I both have been-there-done-that, we're not new to this game.

BTW: If I reference the wrong post it's because I can't access the group from where I am at the moment - behind a gov't firewall and very limited access.
Whiteboard: waiting for Giganews
Whiteboard: waiting for Giganews
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