Closed Bug 502793 Opened 15 years ago Closed 14 years ago

Cheerful error message

Categories

(Mozilla Localizations :: nl / Dutch, defect)

Product:
Mozilla Localizations
Component:
nl / Dutch
Platform:
All
Windows XP
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
trivial

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED FIXED

People

(Reporter: prei, Unassigned)

Details

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; nl; rv:1.9.1) Gecko/20090624 Firefox/3.5
Build Identifier: 3.5

Goodday,

I find the error message, when firefox is not able to contact a website ("Dit is gênant/this is embarrassing."), way to unprofessional. If a page cannot be found, I would prefer to see a common error message like, for example; "Verbinding met website kon niet tot stand worden gebracht/Unable to contact website".

Thanks in advance

Kind regards,
Ronald

Netherlands

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
Goto any website that doesnt exist with a dutch version of Mozilla Firefox
Actual Results:  
Head title: Dit is gênant/this is embarrassing

Expected Results:  
Non-human like error message. Firefox is a program and a program is not embarrased about anything.
As you say the English wording is maybe not so good, so i change the component of this bug (it is not a localization error). If the original text change, we will change the translation also.

The way of translation is discussed here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=468309#c59
Assignee: dutch.nl → nobody
Component: nl / Dutch → Session Restore
Product: Mozilla Localizations → Firefox
QA Contact: dutch.nl → session.restore
Version: unspecified → 3.5 Branch
See bug 476477 for the reasons for the wording which tend to make this bug WONTFIX.

(In reply to comment #0)
> I find the error message, when firefox is not able to contact a website ("Dit
> is gênant/this is embarrassing."), way to unprofessional.

Note: You should only see this message after Firefox crashes(!) repeatedly (which ideally never happens) and not for mundane connection failures.
I agree that the English wording is unlikely to change.

From bug 476477 comment 6
"I think we should note that each localizer should use a culturally appropriate
form of apology here, since I know a lot of other countries really detest
American happy talk and smiley faces."

This suggests that this bug could go back to the localization team if they wanted to select a more culturally appropriate form of apology here.
My main concern is the dutch error message but i was advised to submit this "bug" here.
Assignee: nobody → dutch.nl
Component: Session Restore → nl / Dutch
Product: Firefox → Mozilla Localizations
QA Contact: session.restore → dutch.nl
Version: 3.5 Branch → unspecified
As long the English wording doesn't change, we will keep this translation.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → RESOLVED
Closed: 15 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
FWIW, I agree with the OP, I don’t like the informal phrasing either.

But yeah, as long as the English is like that… difficult to reason for changing the Dutch translation. Although one could say that in Dutch, formality in the language and writing is a little more common than in English… To me the English message is much easier to accept while the Dutch seems just odd.

Either way, suggestions of alternatives that are easier on the eyes yet still have a somewhat ‘whimsical’ nature will be considered, of course :).
Some negative publicity about the Dutch translation on GeenStijl:

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2009/07/nieuwste_firefox_praat_als_n_w.html

I hear the same sentiment from many people. I’d like to reopen this bug. Tim, can you do that? (I seem to have no privileges to do so.)

~Laurens
Reopening per Comment 7
Status: RESOLVED → UNCONFIRMED
Resolution: WONTFIX → ---
I don’t agree with people making a big deal out of this string in the first place. Secondly, Geenstijl is about the best example of people yelling what they think rightaway, often with no arguments or just to annoy people, and not even on a hot sunny day during dull season where no news is good news and reason to yell a little more. If those people are the sources delivering our input/feedback, oh well… Also, keep in mind the actual intention of Mozilla apologizing this way, as shown in the bugs referred to, which everyone should read prior to giving comment on any text strings IMO (including, or rather starting with en-US).

Nevertheless, taking into account comment 6, (on formality) as well as the fact ‘gênant’ may be slightly more suitable if one means ‘vernederend’ instead of situations where one is just getting shy because of showing incapabilities where this should not happen, we might use the little more formal “Dit brengt ons in verlegenheid”. I think this is about the best it can get though, and it pretty much shows to whom it applies as well.
Say what you say, but GeenStijl is a popular site that gets into the media often. Of course it is their hobby to trash things, but I do think that they are not the only one who is of this opinion, and the fact that this appears there does indicate that the sentence sounds odd enough for such a site to notice.

What do you think about “Sorry voor het ongemak”? Common phrase, apologetic, and I think gets the message across.
I agree with Laurens. Although they are trashing alot of newsitems, they are using Firefox as well and also have there opinion about this. Those comments may be a little oversaturated but still, they notice it and find it odd enough to say something about it.

Something like "Sorry voro het ongemak" looks less odd and acceptable in the dutch language.
As said, we ought to not give much about GS readers and posters opinions on what specific wording had been used (as we could think of a number of other happy talk lines in FF they and others could make a fuss about), but merely concentrate on pure l10n and context issues, and thus paragraph 2 in comment 9. Please (re)read https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476477#c12 as well, which clearly reflects the intention of this message. We should stick to that as close as possible, as this is the only way to keep the original quality (so to speak) of Mozilla’s text and pay respect to well-overthought decisions of the original authors. I suspect you (Laurens) may think otherwise on that part, and this is something we will probably never agree on.

Your suggestion is therefore clear, but would only be suitable the original message looked similar and had the same meaning, which is different from what it is now. If you can come up with a better line reflecting the aspect of embarrassment though, that could be an option. If not, I suggest you accept the suggestion in comment 9, or try to change the en-US message (as usual).
I think you’re completely ignoring bug 476477 comment 6 by Alex Faaborg:

> I think we should note that each localizer should use a culturally appropriate
> form of apology here, since I know a lot of other countries really detest
> american happy talk and smiley faces.

Translating literally for the sake of translating literally is a bad thing, and I do not see why you are so insistant on doing so when it is clearly problematic. The problem this bug is about has been acknowledged long ago and we are given an *explicit green light* here to translate in a way that does not sound weird, instead of literally.

Your ‘suggestion’ to try to change the en-US message will clearly not work, because any attempt to do so on the ground of oddness in a certain localisation will be pointed to the above mentioned comment, and we will end up in an endless loop of going back and forth.

The original contents of this string was exactly the English version of my “Sorry voor het ongemak” suggestion, however the reason to change this in bug 476477 was exactly that in *American English* this sounds insincere:

> An apology might be in order but "we apologize for the inconvenience" borders
> on the disingenuous - this might be due to a phenomenon that is more apparent
> in North America, where customers and travelers are always apologized to for
> "the inconvenience" in a way that seems at once aloof and insincere.

Thus the current string in en-US is clearly a *locale-specific decision*. In America (or e.g. Japan for that matter), people are apologising so much that it becomes a hollow phrase and does not sound sincere anymore. (Whether the manner in which Firefox uses it is any more sincere is debatable as well imo; as there is not even a human uttering the apology, but anyway.)

In the Netherlands, this is not a problem. I’ve never even heard of the concept of ‘happy talk’ before and the Dutch aren’t even close to as apologetic as the Americans (as I noticed during my vacation there), and thus the decision of change of wording as in bug 476477 does not apply to us.

I think the suggestion I made is good and apologetic enough. That it doesn’t convey the exact same 1 on 1 as the English does should not be so much of a deal, especially not if the alternative that does sounds so odd (this includes the suggestion from comment 9, although less so, imo).

~Laurens
suggestions done in this bug and bug 468309:
- Sorry voor het ongemak
- Dit brengt ons in verlegenheid
- Wel, dit is spijtig.
- Wel, dit is vervelend.
- Het spijt ons
- Dit is vervelend

let's make a decision, i vote for 'dit is vervelend' if we are going to change it.
It’s funny to see the apology aspect (that would not apply to nl) can be used to defend the use of the original happy talk line after all. Anyway, to cut it short: while the original line can be considered happy talk for one locale, I don’t see a problem to just follow the more universal (and sort of like ‘reference’) new en-US line it has become after avoiding it, even though it may look like “translating literally for the sake of translating literally”. ‘Green lights’ aren’t always a reason to show extreme creativity on a certain string, as if it’s a chance in a million that should be taken.

Nevertheless, if the happy talk part of bug 476477 does not really apply to nl (which is sort of true, I agree) and just keep that in mind, I guess we could easily revert to the original nl line, which IIRC was ‘Onze welgemeende excuses voor het ongemak’. I’d say we could leave out ‘welgemeende’ here and certainly not start by saying ‘Sorry voor’, which would lead to ‘Onze excuses voor het ongemak.’. I could live with ‘Dit is vervelend (zeg).’ too, although that doesn’t really reflect any apologies IMO.
(In reply to comment #15)
> I guess we could
> easily revert to the original nl line, which IIRC was ‘Onze welgemeende excuses
> voor het ongemak’. I’d say we could leave out ‘welgemeende’ here and certainly
> not start by saying ‘Sorry voor’, which would lead to ‘Onze excuses voor het
> ongemak.’.

I am in agreement with this (‘onze excuses voor het ongemak’).
Via Mozilla Europe kreeg ik dit door:

Martin van der Veen <mocveen@hotmail.com> schreef:
> >  Na een crash en herstart van laptop en vervolgens Mozilla Firefox, verscheen
> > daar het bericht onder de titel "Dit is genant." Van de titel werd ik
> > vrolijker. Hulde voor deze tekst en toon!
> >
> > Geeft u het ook door aan de bij zoiets bepalende betrokkenen danwel de
> > bedenker zelve?
Did we not get a decision here in comment 15 and 16?
hmmm looking to the open bugs in nl......

we didn't change the string (yet):
http://mxr.mozilla.org/l10n-central/source/nl/browser/chrome/browser/aboutSessionRestore.dtd#5

i will change it to:

"Onze excuses voor het ongemak"

ok?
Ok with me (don’t forget the full stop though) ;)
fixed in 1.9.1 / 1.9.2 and central
Status: UNCONFIRMED → RESOLVED
Closed: 15 years ago → 14 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
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