70128 - Inconsistency between the use of "news server" and "newsgroup server"

Status: VERIFIED FIXED

(SeaMonkey :: MailNews: Account Configuration, defect)

Description

[Henrik Gemal]

Under Account Settings we say:
Server Type: Newsgroup server (NNTP)

in Account Wizard we say:
...of your news (NNTP) server.

and in Congratulations! of the Account Wizard we say:
News Server Name:

Could we agree on:
Newsgroup server (NNTP)
?

Comment 1

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Good catch, I'll take this.  Robin, Jennifer, when we agree on the wording, I'll
provide the patches.

Comment 2

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

accepting bug. changing to all. 

Comment 3

[jglick]

Robin's call on which is better. Thanks for catching/fixing this.

Comment 4

[robinf]

I agree with [e-mail] that we should consistently use
"Newsgroup server (NNTP)".

Comment 5

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

What about the first page of the Account Wizard, where the following text appears:

"Newsgroup account".  I think it might be fine to leave this alone, but I just
wanted to double check.

Comment 6

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: Patch, please review.

Comment 7

[robinf]

I think "Newsgroup account" is fine as is, because we're describing the type of
account, not the type of server.

Comment 8

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Good, then my patch should be fine, the only thing I changed related to that is
in the window where you enter a name for the account, I changed the following:

-<!ENTITY accnameExample.label "For example, Work Account, Home Account or News
Account">
+<!ENTITY accnameExample.label "For example, Work Account, Home Account or
Newsgroup Account">

Bhuvan and Seth, please r/sr. Thanks.

Comment 9

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: This fixed a spacing problem in one of my lines.

Comment 10

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Review/Super Review for this, please.  Thanks.

Comment 11

[Joe Hewitt (gone)]

r=hewitt

Comment 12

[David :Bienvenu]

well, I should say that in the past we removed NNTP from the UI since that's
pretty meaningless for most users, and a bit confusing. But if the UI people
have no objections, sr=bienvenu

Comment 13

[racham]

Sorry for the delayed comments....

I feel "News Server" and "News Account" are better than "Newsgroup Server" and 
"Newsgroup Account" respectively. Newsgroup Account sounds like an account
created for a Newsgroup which doesn't sound right. Also, Newsgroup is one of the
items of a news server and promoting it to associate with server and account
doesn't look right. Robin/Jennifer, any thoughts ?

Comment 14

[timeless]

imo Newsgroup Server is wrong.

Comment 15

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

At the midnight hour, before I committed this patch to the CVS server, I had a 
realization, which Bhuvan and I discussed.  Newsgroup server is singular, which 
sounds like you'd have only one newsgroup.  I'm sure this bug was filed by you, 
Henrik, because of the other references throughout Mail/News to (SMTP) being in 
the description accompanying "outgoing mail server."  Obviously, that is 
another bug, but to remain consistent in the product we have to agree on when 
to include the acronyms for these server labels.  Since I currently own this, I 
don't feel it's correct to checkin the current patch based on my reasoning 
above.  Comments welcome!

Comment 16

[Ninoschka Baca]

I would prefer something like "News Server (NNTP)".

Comment 17

[jglick]

I like "News Server (NNTP)" and "News Account"  (no NNTP needed).

Comment 18

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: Patch, Bhuvan, please review (this addresses the latest comments.)

Comment 19

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

You'll notice this patch is much smaller, because there were instances in our
pref code where News Account already existed correctly, so no patching was
needed for those cases.  Also, to remain consistent, I'd like to re-open bug
70241, and fix instances of "Outgoing (STMP) Server" to reflect this format,
"Outgoing Server (SMTP)"  Let me know. Thanks to all. 

Comment 20

[Stephen Walker]

Patch looks good.
r=walk84

Comment 21

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Need the sr= now, I'd also like to get feedback for the issue that I brought up
about bug 70241.

Comment 22

[racham]

r=racham

Comment 23

[racham]

I think "Outgoing Server (SMTP)" will also be a good change.

Comment 24

[jglick]

Agree: "Outgoing Server (SMTP)"

Comment 25

[Scott MacGregor]

sr=mscott

Comment 26

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Fix checked in.  Thanks to all!

Comment 27

[Henrik Gemal]

A bit confused:

Account creation has:
"news server (NNTP)" at Server Information
"News Server Name" at Congratulation

Account Settings has:
"Newsgroup server (NNTP)" at Server Settings

Where's the consistency...?

Comment 28

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

I left it that way on purpose.  NNTP is not needed everywhere, I felt it was 
only needed for the stages where the user was inputting server information.

Comment 29

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: Patch. Henrik, check this out...

Comment 30

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

This patch just keeps the Congratulations! screen in line with the other changes
that I made a while back to the Account Wizard.  Jennifer and Robin, do these
changes jive?

Comment 31

[jglick]

OK by me.

Comment 32

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

sr=sspitzer.

Comment 33

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Asa, this is a simple wording change, it couldn't harm a flea (but it helps with 
consistency.)  Is it possible to get this a=[e-mail] ?

Comment 34

[(not reading, please use [e-mail] instead)]

are you asking for approval for 0.8.1?

there is no need to get this into 0.8.1, just land it on the trunk.

Comment 35

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Checked in.

Comment 36

[Ninoschka Baca]

Build 2001-04-02-04: NT4
Reopening. I agree with Henrik and believe there should more more consistency.

1. Account Wizard
a. First dialog: states "Newsgroup account". 
- I think it should state "News Account". At this stage a newsgroup is not being 
created.

b. Server Information dialog: states "Enter the name of your news server name 
(NNTP)....". 
- Could this be changed to state "Enter your News Server Name (NNTP)...." or 
"Enter your news server name (NNTP)...."

c. Congratulations dialog: states "News Server (NTTP) Name"
- I think it should state "News Server Name (NNTP)"

2. Account Settings
a. News Server panel: For the Server Type entry it states "Newsgroup Server 
(NNTP)". 
- I think it should state "News Server (NNTP)"

Comment 37

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

No problem.  New patch coming up in a bit.

Comment 38

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

What should we do about:
<!ENTITY incomingServerNameDesc.label "Enter the name of your incoming server
(for example, &quot;pop.example.net&quot;).">

since this doesn't match with what we'd like to change SMTP and NNTP to:

<!ENTITY smtpServerDesc.label "Enter your outgoing mail server name (SMTP) (for
example, &quot;smtp.example.net&quot;).">

Comment 39

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Bueller? Bueller? :-)

Comment 40

[Matthew T (active 1999-2002)]

| What is the name of your incoming mail server?
|      _________________________________
|     [_________________________________]
|     Example: mail.mozilla.org

We can't include `(POP)' or `(IMAP)' in that text, because we don't know which 
it is until the user chooses the appropriate radio button immediately above, 
and changing the text based on the radio button would make the UI look 
unstable.

| What is the name of your outgoing mail (SMTP) server?
|      _________________________________
|     [_________________________________]
|     Example: smtp.mozilla.org

Don't use `outgoing mail server name (SMTP)', because `SMTP' is a type of 
server -- it's not a type of server name!

Similarly, use `News (NNTP) Server Name', not `News Server Name (NNTP)' -- 
because `NNTP' is a type of server, it's not a type of server name.

And yes, stephend, I know that phrasing the items as questions is inconsistent 
with the rest of the UI; but it's the rest of the UI which is wrong (according 
to both Mac OS and Windows UI guidelines), and fixing it all is is the sort of 
bug you're good at. :-) (File bugs on yourself and CC me if you want 
suggestions for the rest of the wording. Get Hakan to help you, if necessary, 
where you need to indent/align/remove UI elements.)

Comment 41

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: Screenshot #1

Comment 42

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: Screenshot #2

Comment 43

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: Screenshot #3

Comment 44

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: Patch behind it all.

Comment 45

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Note: The patch only addresses a few of your comments, MPT.  The rest as you
say, might need help from Hwaara, Seth or Bhuvan.

Comment 46

[Matthew T (active 1999-2002)]

>...
> +<!ENTITY newsServer.label "News (NTTP) Server">
>...
> +<!ENTITY newsServerNamePrefix.label "News (NTTP) Server Name:">
>...
> +<!ENTITY newsServerNameDesc.label "Enter the name of your news (NTTP) server
> (for example, &quot;news.example.net&quot;).">

It's `NNTP', not `NTTP'. :-)

> -<!ENTITY nntpType.label "News Server">
> +<!ENTITY nntpType.label "News (NNTP) Server">

IMO, it's not necessary to give the technical term in the summary information 
on the last page.

Comment 47

[robinf]

Stephen, screen shots #2 and #3 have a typo - should say NNTP (instead of NTTP).
Thanks.

Comment 48

[robinf]

Apologies; this is already noted in mpt's last comment.

Comment 49

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Great catch, I must've been asleep in the editor I was using ;-).  Okay, I'll 
correct those and nix the technical stuff at the congrats screen.  Thanks!

Comment 50

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: Latest patch

Comment 51

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Until we can agree on implementing MPT's suggestion, do people like how I've
currently implemented the wording in the latest patch? 

Comment 52

[James "Kovu" Russell]

MPT said: "IMO, it's not necessary to give the technical term in the summary
information on the last page."

My first impulse is to say that consistency is less distracting, and that we
should go either one way or another. Is NNTP even necessary? Granted, I think it
may help users if their ISP gives them an "NNTP" address, labeling it such, for
users to know what info to plug in where. But I think I'm leaning towards
consistency one way or another.

As for the term "Newsgroups", I agree that it is not synonymous with "News
Server" at all, and should be used only when the user is actually dealing with
newsgroups by definition. "News account" says just as much to the reader as
"Newsgroup account", and it's less confusing and more consistent to boot.

Further comments on the last patch:

<!ENTITY imapServer.label "IMAP Mail server">

The above needs to be "IMAP Mail Server" to match the rest (there's one near the
bottom that is capped). It seems that initial (headline) capitalization is the
way it's mostly done now so my impulse is to follow that. If someone thinks we
shouldn't initial cap, now's the time to say so, but it would probalby involve a
lot less to stick with initial capping.

<!ENTITY webmail.label "Web mail account">

This should be WebMail, to match the Netscape client to which it refers, no?

<!ENTITY emailPrefix.label "Email Address:">

This is Netscape style, but I don't like it. I don't see a reason to kill the
hyphen other than popular misuse on the Internet. I'm working on the Mozilla
style (check out Bug 71919 if you're interested) now, and if you want to voice
your opinions on it here, I'll take the results of that discussion to that bug.
Steve Rudman agrees that Mozilla style doesn't have to be Netscape style, and so
I think we should make Mozilla style decisions based on Mozilla.org needs, not
Netscape needs.

-<!ENTITY smtpServerNamePrefix.label "Outgoing Server (SMTP) Name:">

Does what MPT said above apply here, too? Or is there no radio button choice
there? Quoting MPT:

"We can't include `(POP)' or `(IMAP)' in that text, because we don't know which 
it is until the user chooses the appropriate radio button immediately above, 
and changing the text based on the radio button would make the UI look 
unstable."


By the way, please feel free to CC: me on any and all bugs like this, I'm a
professional editor of technical books so this stuff is what I deal with all
day. Not that my perspective is more important than anyone else's, but I have a
"different" perspective to offer. Plus, I want to know about all these types of
style bugs for Bug 71919 (I think it's a metabug, so I didn't add dependency to
this one, although I considered it).

James

Comment 53

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: YAP (Yet Another Patch)

Comment 54

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

James, thanks for the comments.  To answer your question regarding:
-<!ENTITY smtpServerNamePrefix.label "Outgoing Server (SMTP) Name:">

Does what MPT said above apply here, too? Or is there no radio button choice
there? Quoting MPT:

"We can't include `(POP)' or `(IMAP)' in that text, because we don't know which 
it is until the user chooses the appropriate radio button immediately above, 
and changing the text based on the radio button would make the UI look 
unstable."

No, there is no radio button.  This is in the aw-done.dtd file, where we say
"Congratulations!" to the user, showing him/her the settings that we've stored
for them.  It's always going to be the SMTP/outgoing value here.

Comment 55

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

I can check this in, if someone reviews it (an sr=) would be easy enough for
such a trivial patch. Comments, anyone?

Comment 56

[James "Kovu" Russell]

I have one comment: that's "WebMail" not "Webmail". Everything else looks
perfect to me. Has this been checked in yet?

James

Comment 57

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Better patch coming up.  James, if Mozilla wants to have "e-mail" instead of
"email" as Netscape has it, a new patch will have to be provided.  In the hopes
of correcting the other inconsistencies and getting this in time for the
localization freeze, please review the new patch.  Thanks.

Comment 58

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Attachment: New Patch, please be efficient in r/sr'ing this. Thanks.

Comment 59

[(not reading, please use [e-mail] instead)]

+<!ENTITY smtpServerTitle.label "Outgoing  (SMTP) Server">

extra space in there?

otherwise, seems fine to me.  sr=sspitzer

robinf, jglick or nbaca would be an appropriate reviewer.

Comment 60

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Okay, removed that space, thanks for the sanity check.  Robin, please review one
last time, and this should finally be done ;-)  Thanks to all!

Comment 61

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

I remember I have an r=[e-mail] with the condition that I go back to
the style before on "email" instead of the syntax "e-mail", so in the patch I
attached, I have left those intact.  Will check in the fix when the tree opens.

Comment 62

[[e-mail] (gone - use [e-mail] instead)]

Fix checked in. Thanks to all.

Comment 63

[Henrik Gemal]

this is what we got now:

NEWS:
in the prefs:
-------------
- "Server Type: Newsgroup server (NNTP)"
- "Server Name:"
- in the middle of text "news (NNTP) server"

Creating new profile:
---------------------
- in the middle of text "news (NNTP) server"
- "News Server Name:"

seems ok...