705127 - Change default content font for Latin script language groups from serif to sans-serif

Status: RESOLVED WONTFIX

(Core :: CSS Parsing and Computation, enhancement)

Description

[Aki Laaksovirta]

I don't know since when Serif has been the default content font for SeaMonkey / Mozilla Suite, but now it would be the time to make a change to that. Most Serif fonts just don't suit for use on web pages (if they haven't been specifically designed for that.)

So, my suggestion is to change the default value of font.default.x-western to sans-serif.

Comment 1

[Aki Laaksovirta]

Attachment: Proposed patch.

Comment 2

[Jens Hatlak (:InvisibleSmiley)]

Comment on attachment 576761 [details] [diff] [review]
Proposed patch.

Some notes:

1. The file you're proposing to change (all.js) is shared code of the Mozilla platform, so a change to it would affect all applications that do not override it. AFAIK that would currently be all of Firefox, Thunderbird, and SeaMonkey. This is in contrast to the Bugzilla product you chose (SeaMonkey).

2. If you want to go forward with this, you need to request review from someone. If you continue with the shared code file (all.js), you'd probably need to find an appropriate Firefox developer. If you in fact only want to change the SeaMonkey defaults, you'd have to change suite/browser/browser-prefs.js instead and request review from, say, Neil.

3. If you change font.default.x-western, you'll probably want to change font.default.x-unicode, too.

Comment 3

[Aki Laaksovirta]

Attachment: Proposed fix 2.0

This one also changes the x-unicode to sans.

Comment 4

[David Baron :dbaron: (⌚️UTC-5, no longer working on Mozilla)]

A few notes:

The code you're changing is inside an XP_WIN ifdef.  The Mac, OS/2, Android, and Unix fonts are lower in the file.  I'm not sure whether you intended a Windows-only change or not.

I tend to think that x-western, x-unicode, x-central-euro, x-baltic, and (maybe) x-user-def should probably all change in sync with each other.  (We only define x-user-def prefs for some platforms, though.)

Comment 5

[David Baron :dbaron: (⌚️UTC-5, no longer working on Mozilla)]

(And also see bug 468169 for some other suggested improvements to font defaults.  They're separate bugs, though.)

Comment 6

[Aki Laaksovirta]

Attachment: Proposed fix 3.0

This changes defaults on all platforms and on the code pages mentioned in comment 4.

Comment 7

[David Baron :dbaron: (⌚️UTC-5, no longer working on Mozilla)]

Comment on attachment 576799 [details] [diff] [review]
Proposed fix 3.0

I think this is probably a good idea.  I'm curious what other browsers default to sans-serif these days (I recall hearing there were a bunch... but I don't remember the details).  If that's not the case I might be a bit more hesitant.

I think jdaggett should review as well, though.

Comment 8

[David Baron :dbaron: (⌚️UTC-5, no longer working on Mozilla)]

And, er, I just realized I missed one Latin-script language group (my list in comment 4 was an attempt to get all of the language groups based on Latin script):  tr (Turkish) is also Latin script.

Comment 9

[philippe (part-time)]

(In reply to David Baron [:dbaron] from comment #7) 
> I think this is probably a good idea.  I'm curious what other browsers
> default to sans-serif these days (I recall hearing there were a bunch... but
> I don't remember the details).  If that's not the case I might be a bit more
> hesitant.

Fwiw, on OS X 10.5 - 10.7, Safari, Opera, Chrome, iCab, Omniweb, Camino all default to serif for Latin Scripts.

Comment 10

[John Daggett (:jtd)]

And on Windows the default seems to be a mixture:

  Firefox            serif
  IE8 XP / IE9 Win7  sans-serif
  Chrome             serif
  Opera              sans-serif

I'm not really convinced this is such a great idea.  Given enough resolution, serif faces are on average easier to read and since displays are only going to increase in resolution this will only get easier.  In particular, Aki's statement in comment 0 that "most serif fonts just don't suit for use on web pages" is a bit too general of a statement.

There's a lot of personal preference involved here and unless there's a really compelling reason to do this I don't think we should do this.

I do think it's worth considering a better choice of default serif font (we currently use Times New Roman on Windows), in particular one of the c-fonts might be a better choice if available (e.g. Cambria or Constantia).

Comment 11

[Aki Laaksovirta]

Actually I agree. It would just be better to start looking for a better default serif font for use on Windows.

On Linux, DejaVu Serif is really much better than Times.

Comment 12

[Henri Sivonen (:hsivonen)]

(In reply to John Daggett (:jtd) from comment #10)
> And on Windows the default seems to be a mixture:
> 
>   Firefox            serif
>   IE8 XP / IE9 Win7  sans-serif

I just tested IE8 on a fresh Windows 7 install, and it defaulted to serif.

Comment 13

[Aki Laaksovirta]

Actually I agree no more. 

As I already said in the newsgroups, other browsers do what they want to do, and we shouldn't be afraid to be different. It has turned to be this way because no one has wanted to take the lead here.

I, for one, just can't read serif text with little to medium effort. I always have to change the typeface. There may be many who are suffering the same way as me.

I use Mozilla software daily to visit pages that have no default typefaces defined, so I know what I'm talking about.

Comment 14

[Aki Laaksovirta]

Sans has always been, and will always be, the ultimate typeface for screen media.

Comment 15

[Aki Laaksovirta]

Attachment: Proposed patch 4.0

This one also includes Turkish.

Comment 16

[Jonathan Kew [:jfkthame]]

I agree with John in comment #10 that we should consider changing the default serif typeface to something other than TNR, which was not designed primarily for on-screen use.

I'm less sure whether we should change the browser's default from serif to sans-serif. The question of which is "better", "more readable", "easier on the eyes", or whatever is one that will probably be debated forever..... <http://www.google.com/search?q=serif+vs+sans+serif+for+web>

(In reply to Aki Laaksovirta from comment #14)
> Sans has always been, and will always be, the ultimate typeface for screen
> media.

Simply making assertions like this - with no supporting evidence whatsoever, and no acknowledgement that this is just one person's opinion on what is a subjective and widely-debated topic - contributes nothing useful to advance the discussion.

Comment 17

[Aki Laaksovirta]

Right.

Comment 18

[Yuen Ho Wong]

Since this bug was filed over 6 years ago, I thought I'd try again.

During the course of investigating bug 1418724, I noticed that Firefox falls back to sans-serif for Chinese characters. In everyday usage, mixing Chinese characters and Latin is very common, so when Latin defaults to serif but sans-serif is used for Chinese, the end result is very odd.

While I agree with comment 10 that given enough resolution, serif is not a problem for Latin scripts, we have to think about pairing different scripts from different languages. On Chrome and Safari at least, the fall back for Chinese is a serif font, but what I propose is to default Latin scripts to sans-serif on Firefox. It simply improves legibility even in a worst case scenario.

There are still a lot of old LCD monitors floating around in offices, and these things last forever, so I think switching font.default.x-western to sans-serif is a good idea.