790713 - normal menu is hard to find now when thunderbird has the new style app menu - implement (iconic?) TB AppMenu Button in upper-left corner of Tab bar, like in current FF

Status: RESOLVED INVALID

(Thunderbird :: Mail Window Front End, defect)

Description

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Since app menu landed, there's no way to see the normal menu again. Or if there is, i can't find it.

Running with ubuntu (unity).

Comment 1

[Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn)]

I'm able to turn it on and off by right clicking the toolbar and selecting it.

Comment 2

[Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn)]

And also with F10.
Blake suggested we could show the menu with alt, since that's what we do on Windows.
In most GTK+ apps, hitting alt underlines the shortcuts on the menu, so it's somewhat related to menus and consistent(ish).

Comment 3

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Ok, so i just wasn't able to find it :/ Those both work, thx.

In unity there's no point hiding the menu in maximized mode - it should always be "visible", which in this case is invisible but showing in the main(system) menu while hovering the main(system) menu.

Alt is taken in Unity - it shows the Head-Up Display. 

I'm a bit worried we'll have the new format app menu before firefox releases with it... the old (ore rather current) app menu ff uses is easily findable, and i wonder how they will get users aware of the new system.

Comment 4

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

Only for record: right click on toolbar and select "Menu Bar" shows the menubar and don't hide it again. F10 shows the bar for use and hides it after selecting a entry.

Comment 5

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

Any chance that we get some user feedback to know if they'll find it ?

Comment 6

[rsx11m]

I found it rather by accident. If you hold the ALT key down (today's 17.0a2 nightly) nothing happens at first. Only if you hit a matching access key for one of the top-level menus, the menu bar appears with the respective menu opened.

I've noticed that "Toolbars" isn't present in the app menu's "View" whereas it is in Firefox (version 15.0.1 at least), that might help switching on the traditional menu bar without knowing about any tricks, but would be a persistent rather than a per-use change.

(In reply to Magnus Melin from comment #3)
> Alt is taken in Unity - it shows the Head-Up Display.

Bad choice - by Unity, that is. Wouldn't this cause accessibility problems in general if the ALT key cannot be used for keyboard-based menu navigation? I'd still think that temporarily showing the menu on ALT key is a good solution.

Comment 7

[rsx11m]

(In reply to Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn) from comment #1)
> I'm able to turn it on and off by right clicking the toolbar and selecting it.

Eh, I've missed that one - works as described. It's probably a question of what the user expects to see based on experience with previous versions or other applications... :-\

Comment 8

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

(In reply to rsx11m from comment #6)
> I've noticed that "Toolbars" isn't present in the app menu's "View" whereas
> it is in Firefox (version 15.0.1 at least), that might help switching on the
> traditional menu bar without knowing about any tricks, but would be a
> persistent rather than a per-use change.

It's at the exact same position like in Firefox, in the options menu.

Comment 9

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

(In reply to Richard Marti [:Paenglab] from comment #8)
> (In reply to rsx11m from comment #6)
> > I've noticed that "Toolbars" isn't present in the app menu's "View" whereas
> > it is in Firefox (version 15.0.1 at least), that might help switching on the
> > traditional menu bar without knowing about any tricks, but would be a
> > persistent rather than a per-use change.
> 
> It's at the exact same position like in Firefox, in the options menu.

Not on Mac…  (I just checked.  ;)

Thanks,
Blake.

Comment 10

[rsx11m]

Ok, so it's in the "Preferences" submenu of the app button, I didn't look there given that the old menu has it sorted in "View" instead.

Did Firefox provide any reason for this inconsistency?

Comment 11

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

I guess show/hide toolbars is also a sort of options/configuration.

Comment 12

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

(In reply to rsx11m from comment #6)
> Bad choice - by Unity, that is. Wouldn't this cause accessibility problems

As i just found out: hitting alt shortly will show the HUD, but pressing alt for a second or so shows the menu. This works for thunderbird15, and firefox15, but NOT for thunderbird trunk (where keeping alt pressed does absolutely nothing).

Comment 13

[Wolfgang Rosenauer [:wolfiR]]

I've just started testing TB17 and stumbled upon that (Linux, non-Unity).
After update the menu bar was gone and I haven't found any obvious way to access the menu again. I was able to reenable the menu bar via the context menu but there has to be something in the UI which is clickable to open the menu IMHO. I didn't know about F10 and I do not know menu shortcuts to open the menu in most cases. So if the menu bar will be disabled finally I would strongly suggest to enable some UI element (there is this AppMenu item for example) in the default UI.

Comment 14

[rsx11m]

Bug 791311 (Dont disable the menubar for existing users) was checked in today and is pending for aurora-approval, this should prevent the surprise of a disappearing menu bar for users with existing profile/accounts.

Comment 15

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

I'm still worried about new users as i don't think they will find the new style menu. What's the reason mail.menu_menu.collapse_by_default (from bug 791311) isn't false for everyone until we sort things out?

Comment 16

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Attachment: patch (firefox style "yellow" titlebar appmenu button) - wip

Here's a very rough patch to have it look like the current firefox appmenu instead. This is still very much wip, but it should be mostly fixing a bunch of css and not using it as a toolbar button too (which makes id's double up so after using the second button too, the first one doesn't work)

Comment 17

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Attachment: wip screenshot

(the button here is black as it's not an official build)

Comment 18

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

(In reply to Magnus Melin from comment #3)
> I'm a bit worried we'll have the new format app menu before firefox releases
> with it... the old (ore rather current) app menu ff uses is easily findable,
> and i wonder how they will get users aware of the new system.

+1

While I am aware of Blake's release-cycle argument for skipping the "current" FF layout (FF button in upper-left corner of Tab bar), like Magnus, I am also very sceptical how discoverable this will be for new users.
Removing the main menu is a deep cut, and skipping steps in that delicate process imho isn't wise.

Another disadvantage of placing new AppMenu button on the /Mail toolbar/ is that you need to keep the toolbar just to keep the button. While otherwise there is no reason for keyboard users to keep that toolbar, F5, Ctrl+N, Ctrl+P etc. do the trick very well.

Comment 22

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

(In reply to Magnus Melin from comment #17)
> wip screenshot
> (the button here is black as it's not an official build)

Magnus,

how hard would it be to make the new style appear only if people dragged the button to the left of the tabs?

Thanks,
Blake.

Comment 23

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

Blake,

Now it's only possible to put something on the left of the tabs with my 'Before Tabs Toolbar' add-on.

What do you think when I try to add this styling to my add-on, this is only a CSS thing. Then no change is needed on TB itself?

Comment 24

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

That would be awesome, although I could imagine having this in TB itself, too…

Thanks,
Blake.

Comment 25

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

(In reply to Blake Winton (:bwinton) from comment #22)
> (In reply to Magnus Melin from comment #17)
> > wip screenshot
> > (the button here is black as it's not an official build)
> 
> Magnus,
> 
> how hard would it be to make the new style appear only if people dragged the
> button to the left of the tabs?

I'd guess it's not trivial, but maybe Paenglab has a better assessment?
(And if someone wants to continue with the patch, feel free to step in, i don't have enough energy for it atm.)

Comment 26

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Though even if the button could be dragged that it itself wouldn't resolve of the problem. The solution needs to be such that it's easy to find the menu in a default setup.

Comment 27

[moray33]

(In reply to Magnus Melin from comment #26)
> Though even if the button could be dragged that it itself wouldn't resolve
> of the problem. The solution needs to be such that it's easy to find the
> menu in a default setup.

I totally agree with this.

Comment 28

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

For TB 17 it's definitely to late and end users could have a new version with a maybe other AppButton implementation in one year. And we have time to look what Firefox is doing with the button in the future and decide then what should be changed.

Until then I propose to use my Add-on https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/addon/before-tabs-toolbar/ which implements the Firefox button when placed on the left of the tabs.

Comment 29

[Günter]

@richard -- comment 28

fully +100 !
Have already installed .. and also some MOZ guys don't like .. the best solution right now!

The other point: the AppMenu doesn't get menu items normally seen under 'Tools' main menu, to name only two: DOMi, Zindus (TB/AB sync'er).
Here add-on dev need to do some rework also! 

Günter

Comment 30

[Günter]

Attachment: AppMenu not an icon it placed to left

Comment 31

[Günter]

Upps .. this seems to a problem with  https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/addon/before-tabs-toolbar/
There is a icon if the AppMenu is on the right side, on the left (before-tabs-toolbar) it's an text labeled pull down menu.
(see uploaded attachment)

This is with:
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:19.0) Gecko/19.0 Thunderbird/19.0a2
20121127042014

Comment 32

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

Yes, this is what I wrote in comment 28:
> Until then I propose to use my Add-on
> https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/addon/before-tabs-toolbar/ which
> implements the Firefox button when placed on the left of the tabs.

If you still want the icon you should stay at version 1.0 of my add-on. For Linux this is the only change in v 1.1.

Comment 33

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

After bug 1834745, will we still need this?

Comment 34

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

I would mark this invalid since we're not implementing an icon menubar button.