883508 - The French translation of "current page" is incorrect

Status: RESOLVED WONTFIX

(Mozilla Localizations :: fr / French, defect)

Description

[charlesedd.y]

User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:21.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/21.0 (Beta/Release)
Build ID: 20130511120803

Steps to reproduce:

Click on Préférences --> onglet Général. Version 21.0 for OS X.


Actual results:

The button "current page" (to assign the start page to the currently open website) is translated by "page courante".


Expected results:

It should be "page actuelle".

Comment 1

[Benoit]

I don't get it, they are synonymous. How is it wrong?

(Even if it was, I don't think it would be worth changing more than ten years of habits and documentation.)

Comment 2

[Jean-Bernard Marcon]

(In reply to charlesedd.y from comment #0)
> User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:21.0)
> Gecko/20100101 Firefox/21.0 (Beta/Release)
> Build ID: 20130511120803
> 
> Steps to reproduce:
> 
> Click on Préférences --> onglet Général. Version 21.0 for OS X.
> 
> 
> Actual results:
> 
> The button "current page" (to assign the start page to the currently open
> website) is translated by "page courante".
> 
> 
> Expected results:
> 
> It should be "page actuelle".

Unless you mention consistent reasons for this change I don't see the point at all.

Comment 3

[charlesedd.y]

For me there is a difference between the words.

-----

Larousse : entrée pour courant :

    Se dit d'une période qui est en cours, qui s'écoule actuellement et n'est pas terminée : Le 10 du mois courant (ou le 10 courant).
    Qui est habituel, qui se fait ou a lieu d'ordinaire : Les dépenses courantes de la maison.
    Qui est usuel, fréquent, banal, commun : Mot courant.
    Qui est banal et facile en raison de son caractère habituel : C'est un problème courant.
    Qui a un cours, un taux légal à un certain moment : Acheter au prix courant.


Larousse : entrée pour actuel:

Qui a lieu dans le moment présent : Quel est le cours actuel du dollar ?
Qui est en activité dans le moment présent : L'actuel ministre des Finances.
Qui convient au moment présent : Ce film reste très actuel.


-----

You'll note that the meanings aren't technically the same. While the Dictionnaire de l'académie gives, for courant, you should note the examples: "Présent, actuel. L'année courante, l'année en cours. Le mois courant, en parlant de rentes, de loyers, d'intérêts, la somme due ou reçue pour la période en cours. Le terme courant ou, ellipt., le courant, le terme à échoir. Je renonce aux arrérages si vous réglez le courant".

You'll note that it's consistently about a time period (le 10 du mois courant) but not about a state of being. "Actuel" is a better match for the case of "current page". It may just be semantics, but at least it's founded semantics ^^. Note that the etymology given by the TLF for courant is "qui court", "usuel, habituel", "qui est en cours"; whereas actuel is given the etymology "cautère qui agit immédiatement", "adj. lat. ce qui se fait ou ce qui se passe au moment présent". I think, honestly, that in today's language, people would say "la page actuelle" (c-à-d la page sur laquelle je suis actuellement) instead of "la page courante".

Understandably, it would break with past documentation, but it's a calque that should be changed for me.

Comment 4

[Jean-Bernard Marcon]

(In reply to charlesedd.y from comment #3)
> For me there is a difference between the words.
There are many differences between the words, especially if you explore every meaning of both in a dictionary.
When examining both words IN CONTEXT (that is in the very interface where they appear) i don't think there is such a difference, and am inclined to say, as Benoit mentioned, there are synonymous words *in this context*.
You are welcome to have a look here
http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=8393416

Please note we are not stubborn and can adapt our translation to every syntactic and usecase context, since in other cases "current" is translated as "actuel"
http://transvision.mozfr.org/?sourcelocale=en-US&locale=fr&repo=central&search_type=strings&recherche=current

As for your precise suggestion here I don't find it is worth changing.
> 
> -----
> 
> Larousse : entrée pour courant :
> 
>     Se dit d'une période qui est en cours, qui s'écoule actuellement et
> n'est pas terminée : Le 10 du mois courant (ou le 10 courant).
>     Qui est habituel, qui se fait ou a lieu d'ordinaire : Les dépenses
> courantes de la maison.
>     Qui est usuel, fréquent, banal, commun : Mot courant.
>     Qui est banal et facile en raison de son caractère habituel : C'est un
> problème courant.
>     Qui a un cours, un taux légal à un certain moment : Acheter au prix
> courant.
> 
> 
> Larousse : entrée pour actuel:
> 
> Qui a lieu dans le moment présent : Quel est le cours actuel du dollar ?
> Qui est en activité dans le moment présent : L'actuel ministre des Finances.
> Qui convient au moment présent : Ce film reste très actuel.
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> You'll note that the meanings aren't technically the same. While the
> Dictionnaire de l'académie gives, for courant, you should note the examples:
> "Présent, actuel. L'année courante, l'année en cours. Le mois courant, en
> parlant de rentes, de loyers, d'intérêts, la somme due ou reçue pour la
> période en cours. Le terme courant ou, ellipt., le courant, le terme à
> échoir. Je renonce aux arrérages si vous réglez le courant".
> 
> You'll note that it's consistently about a time period (le 10 du mois
> courant) but not about a state of being. "Actuel" is a better match for the
> case of "current page". It may just be semantics, but at least it's founded
> semantics ^^. Note that the etymology given by the TLF for courant is "qui
> court", "usuel, habituel", "qui est en cours"; whereas actuel is given the
> etymology "cautère qui agit immédiatement", "adj. lat. ce qui se fait ou ce
> qui se passe au moment présent". I think, honestly, that in today's
> language, people would say "la page actuelle" (c-à-d la page sur laquelle je
> suis actuellement) instead of "la page courante".
> 
> Understandably, it would break with past documentation, but it's a calque
> that should be changed for me.

Comment 5

[charlesedd.y]

Attachment: Chrome settings

Comment 6

[charlesedd.y]

Attachment: ie settings

Comment 7

[charlesedd.y]

Attachment: opera settings

Comment 8

[charlesedd.y]

(In reply to Jean-Bernard Marcon from comment #4)



Although Canadian French has its merits, I don't think it's applicable to cite the GDT for this. The GDT says "informatique", which are often "des termes calqués" anyways, and here I think it's a real example of the type of calque that harms comprehension.

Obviously, Firefox is not forced to (and should not) copy other browsers: it should make its own way. But I think that the fact that NO other big browser uses "page courante" says something (even Safari says "page active"). The user expects to see "actuel" in this context. I was shocked by it at least, and I searched around for the setting for a moment before finding it. It may seem obvious to you, but I'm a longtime francophone user too, it wasn't necessarily so to me.

I know it's a headache to change but I do think it's worth it. Not only is it semantically not the same thing, but it's also just a user experience issue as, *in context*, actuel is more natural than courant.


> (In reply to charlesedd.y from comment #3)
> > For me there is a difference between the words.
> There are many differences between the words, especially if you explore
> every meaning of both in a dictionary.
> When examining both words IN CONTEXT (that is in the very interface where
> they appear) i don't think there is such a difference, and am inclined to
> say, as Benoit mentioned, there are synonymous words *in this context*.
> You are welcome to have a look here
> http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=8393416
> 
> Please note we are not stubborn and can adapt our translation to every
> syntactic and usecase context, since in other cases "current" is translated
> as "actuel"
> http://transvision.mozfr.org/?sourcelocale=en-
> US&locale=fr&repo=central&search_type=strings&recherche=current
> 
> As for your precise suggestion here I don't find it is worth changing.

Comment 9

[Jean-Bernard Marcon]

(In reply to charlesedd.y from comment #8)
> (In reply to Jean-Bernard Marcon from comment #4)
> 
> 
> 
> Although Canadian French has its merits, I don't think it's applicable to
> cite the GDT for this. The GDT says "informatique", which are often "des
> termes calqués" 
Though I I am far from following every Canadian-French suggestions, I would certainly not say they often produce calques. More than often they just "create" controversial items that are very far from simple calques.

anyways, and here I think it's a real example of the type of
> calque that harms comprehension.

I don't agree at all, no user up to now has ever mentioned any problem to understand "page courante".

> 
> Obviously, Firefox is not forced to (and should not) copy other browsers: it
> should make its own way. But I think that the fact that NO other big browser
> uses "page courante" says something (even Safari says "page active"). The
> user expects to see "actuel" in this context. I was shocked by it at least,
> and I searched around for the setting for a moment before finding it. It may
> seem obvious to you, but I'm a longtime francophone user too, it wasn't
> necessarily so to me.

It is all the same if you are used to see "Signets" or "Favoris" on other browsers and fall on "Marque-pages" (our choice). I see no reason to change it just because other browser translation teams have made different choices.

> 
> I know it's a headache to change but I do think it's worth it. Not only is
> it semantically not the same thing, but it's also just a user experience
> issue as, *in context*, actuel is more natural than courant.

"natural" is highly subjective here. I would say it is more a cultural choice (depending onwhich linguistic environment you heard/read this word or that word)

But hey, considering your bad user experience, maybe I am wrong. I leave it to l10n lead to decide.

- feel free to submit a patch.

> 
> 
> > (In reply to charlesedd.y from comment #3)
> > > For me there is a difference between the words.
> > There are many differences between the words, especially if you explore
> > every meaning of both in a dictionary.
> > When examining both words IN CONTEXT (that is in the very interface where
> > they appear) i don't think there is such a difference, and am inclined to
> > say, as Benoit mentioned, there are synonymous words *in this context*.
> > You are welcome to have a look here
> > http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=8393416
> > 
> > Please note we are not stubborn and can adapt our translation to every
> > syntactic and usecase context, since in other cases "current" is translated
> > as "actuel"
> > http://transvision.mozfr.org/?sourcelocale=en-
> > US&locale=fr&repo=central&search_type=strings&recherche=current
> > 
> > As for your precise suggestion here I don't find it is worth changing.

Comment 10

[Scoobidiver (away)]

Je serai d'accord avec le rapporteur.
En tant qu'adjectif, current se traduit par actuel ou en cours sauf pour la finance où c'est courant. Voir http://dictionnaire.reverso.net/anglais-francais/current, http://dictionnaire.reverso.net/francais-anglais/courant et http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=auto&query=current+page

Il faut changer plus que la chaine Current page.

Comment 11

[Théo Chevalier]

d'après les commentaires #1 et #2, on peut fermer ce bug en tant que wontfix.