920402 - message delete In Thunderbird not shown in hotmail.com/outlook.com/Office365 (imap)

Status: RESOLVED INVALID

(Thunderbird :: Untriaged, defect)

Description

[Pascal BORSCHNECK]

User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/24.0 (Beta/Release)
Build ID: 20130910160258

Steps to reproduce:

I created an IMAP account for my hotmail email.
No problem to get emails ...

Deleting from hotmail.com, it is well reported in TB.

But, by deleting messages into TB, it isn't well/ASAP/... reported into Hotmail.
I tried 
 * to empty the trash
 * do a get emails
 * close TB, relaunch it
and sometimes they are deleted (not all the time).


Actual results:

Emails not well/every time deleted from the server


Expected results:

Them deleted

Comment 1

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

What is your IMAP delete model setting? (Server Settings, When I delete a message)
Perhaps "Move to it to this folder: Trash, Deleted Ites, or something"("Move to trash" model).

In IMAP, "delete of mail from an Mbox" is "store flag named \Deleted".
When "Move to tash" model, following is executed on mail of UID=xx.
  UID copy xx "Trash"           => Mail is copied to Trash
  UID store xx +Flags(\Deleted) => Deleted mail(copied to Trash mail) is marked as \Deleted
This "marked as \Deleted" mail is permanently removed from Mbox by EXPUNGE command for the Mbox. EXPUNGE command for the Mbox is issued by Tb by "Compact" of the Mbox.

This "marked as \Deleted" mail is perhaps shown as active mail by Web Interface of Web mail.
Because "delete mail at Web Interface of Web mail" is not "delete mail via IMAP", MS's Web Mail service perhaps permanently removes the mail immediately, and the mail is not shown via IMAP any more, then "removal of the mail from IMAP Mbox" is notified to IMAP client via IMAP.

If you change IMAP delete model of Tb to "just mark it as deleted", you can see the "marked as \Deleted" mail as "mail of strike-thru line and deleted mail indicator" at Thread pane of the Mbox(message list pane). This "mail of strike-thru line and deleted mail indicator" is permanently removed by "Compact" of the Mbox.

Comment 2

[Pascal BORSCHNECK]

Hi,

I did some tests after your reply: in Server Settings,
 - it was "Move to trash" (as if Trash didn't exist, see below)
 - I modified it to "Delete" (as Delete was proposed in drop down list) : the same, not deleted/reported
 - With "Mark it deleted": also not deleted in hotmail.com
 - With "Immediately delete", the same.

And by right-click on the folder in TB ... and doing a "compact", it is really deleted also in hotmail.com

About your EXPUNGE linked to "Compact" in TB, ok good to know this, but do you think it is the right way to manage this ?

Regards,
Pascal

Comment 3

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Pascal BORSCHNECK from comment #2)
> but do you think it is the right way to manage this ?

Tb's behavior observed with "Just mark it as deleted" is absolutely proper behavior, from perspective of protocol named IMAP.
- "Delete of a mail" == "store flag named \Deleted to the mail"
  => Undelete is always possible, easy, and pretty simple.
- If "mail marked as \deleted" is not needed any more, request EXPUNGE.

With "Just mark it as deleted" model, predefined View/"Not deleted" is usable in addition to View/All and View/Unread, in order to hide annoying many "mail marked as \Deleted" at Thread pane(mail list pane).
"Remove immediately" model is to force hiding of annoying "mail marked as \Deleted" at Thread pane(mail list pane) always, regardless of View option choice.

So, problem is in MS's Web mail system.
  Despite that MS supports IMAP(supports \Deleted flag via IMAP) in his mail service,
  MS's Web mail system does not pay attention to \Deleted flag at all.
  MS's Web mail system wrongly shows "mail with \Deleted flag" as active mail.

Because some users want "immediate removal of mail marked as \Deleted" especially when "Move to trash" model(copy is held in Trash, so data loss by immediate expunge doesn't occur), Tb provides hidden option of mail.imap.expunge_after_delete=true. By this, EXPUNGE is issued after each delete of mail when "Move to trash" model.

This option in Tb is disabled by default, because EXPUNGE is usually expensive job at server.
  If server uses Unix Mbox file as mail folder file,
  EXPUNGE may force similar action to "Compact of local mail folder in Tb" at server.
    Copy all non-deleted mails to new file.
    Re-create index for all copied mails.

Comment 4

[Pascal BORSCHNECK]

Hi,

Ok for your remark "Mark to Delete".

But, for "Move to trash" / "Move to <folder you want>" for deletion ?
Why does this not work ?

Comment 5

[Pascal BORSCHNECK]

Another remark about the "Move to trash" with TB on outlook.com

I noticed that the message are
 * well deleted into TB
 * COPIED in "trash" folder (I see them in outlook.com)
 * But ... into Outlook.com they also stay into inbox

I think the "move" is done as a "copy" ?
Or after the "copy" there should be a delete but it is missing/fails ?

Comment 6

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Pascal BORSCHNECK from comment #5)
> Another remark about the "Move to trash" with TB on outlook.com
"Delete a mail(UID=nnn) in Inbox of IMAP" in "Move to trash" model is following.
(0) At a cached connection "select Inbox" is already issued.
(1) At Inbox, uid copy nnn "Trash"           <= "move to trash" only action
(2) At Inbox, uid store nnn +Flags(\Deleted)
(3) After it, "mail marked as \Deleted in Inbox" is hidden at thread pane,
    as done when "Remove immediately" model.
(4) EXPUNGE is not executed at Inbox until explicit Compact request, auto-compact,
    optional expunging by some settings or add-on etc.

Did you execute "Compact" at Inbox?
Did you set mail.imap.expunge_after_delete=true?

Comment 7

[Pascal BORSCHNECK]

(In reply to WADA from comment #6)
> (In reply to Pascal BORSCHNECK from comment #5)
> > Another remark about the "Move to trash" with TB on outlook.com
> "Delete a mail(UID=nnn) in Inbox of IMAP" in "Move to trash" model is
> following.
> (0) At a cached connection "select Inbox" is already issued.
> (1) At Inbox, uid copy nnn "Trash"           <= "move to trash" only action
> (2) At Inbox, uid store nnn +Flags(\Deleted)
> (3) After it, "mail marked as \Deleted in Inbox" is hidden at thread pane,
>     as done when "Remove immediately" model.
> (4) EXPUNGE is not executed at Inbox until explicit Compact request,
> auto-compact,
>     optional expunging by some settings or add-on etc.
> 
> Did you execute "Compact" at Inbox?
> Did you set mail.imap.expunge_after_delete=true?

Hi, with mail.imap.expunge_after_delete=true message are well transfered in trash on outlook.com thanks but doing a "compact" on each message deleted is perhaps a little "too much" ?  Especially with a big inbox: perhaps adding a timer which wait 2-3 seconds after last delete in cas of another delete occurring ?

Comment 8

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Is this working as designed?
Do we need a support article about how "mark as deleted" works?

Comment 9

[Gary Oberbrunner]

I'm having the same issue.  No matter what settings I use, I can't make my Tbird deletions appear instantly in webmail (Office365).  Everything else I do in tbird shows up instantly: marking read/unread, replying, flagging, etc.  But there is no combination of settings that makes pressing Delete on the Tbird message cause it to disappear instantly from Office265 OWA webmail.  I've tried every combo I can find, though admittedly not every possible combo.

The closest I can come is Server Settings -> Move to Folder Deleted Items along with mail.imap.expunge_after_delete=true.  What that does on the server side is make a _copy_ of the mail in Deleted Items; that copy shows up immediately, but of course that doesn't help anything (if anything it's worse because it looks like a two-message threaded conversation in the web view).  Then Compacting my Inbox in Tbird does delete it from Inbox and that shows up immediately in the web side.  Why can't there be an option to do whatever additional processing "Compact Folder" is doing also be done on delete?

(BTW, I understand this is all working fine according to the standard, and OWA isn't paying attention to the \Deleted flag, etc. etc.  I'm not debating that.  I just want Tbird to be able to work well as a mail client.)

Comment 10

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Gary, Pascal,
Is this still known to be a problem?

Comment 11

[Gary Oberbrunner]

I no longer use Thunderbird.

Comment 12

[Pascal BORSCHNECK]

(In reply to Wayne Mery (:wsmwk, NI for questions) from comment #10)
> Gary, Pascal,
> Is this still known to be a problem?

Just tried, deleting in TB also deletes in Hotmail

Comment 13

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Thanks for the updates