Closed Bug 259362 Opened 20 years ago Closed 20 years ago

No keyboard shortcut to Page Info

Categories

(Firefox :: Keyboard Navigation, defect)

Product:
Firefox
Component:
Keyboard Navigation
Platform:
x86
Windows 2000
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
minor

Tracking

()

Status:
VERIFIED WONTFIX

People

(Reporter: jgc_nospam, Assigned: aaronlev)

References

Details

Attachments

(1 file)

Patch against 1.0PR to assign Ctrl+I to Page Info & Update Help
4.81 KB, patch
Details | Diff | Splinter Review
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913 Firefox/0.10 Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913 Firefox/0.10 The shortcut Ctrl-j used to open Page Info. Now it opens the download manager (formerly Ctrl-y). Ctrl-i - which on Mozilla (not Firefox 0.9.x) opened Page Info is on Firefox now set to open the Bookmarks sidebar - just as Ctrl-b does. Judging from the menu, there is no shortcut to open Page Info. Why is that? It is a vital tool for a web developer - and usefull for many others as well. Reproducible: Always Steps to Reproduce: 1. Try to open Page Info using a keyboard shortcut. I just noticed that the context menu doesn't include any shortcuts for its functions (back, forward, reload, etc.) I believe Opera has a much better approach here - with extensive use of shortcuts and listing the shortcuts next to the menus also in context menus. A possibility to edit the shortcuts using either about:config or (better) GUI would also be a major improvement.
> The shortcut Ctrl-j used to open Page Info. Now it opens the download manager > (formerly Ctrl-y). Ctrl-i - which on Mozilla (not Firefox 0.9.x) opened Page > Info is on Firefox now set to open the Bookmarks sidebar - just as Ctrl-b does. Ctrl-I was always bound to bookmarks for IE key-compatibility. Just as Ctrl-E is a secondary keybinding for search. This is all by design. > Judging from the menu, there is no shortcut to open Page Info. Why is that? It > is a vital tool for a web developer - and usefull for many others as well. The most common use for Page Info is security info, which most users access via the secure site icon. Other than that, its a power-userish feature, and we've prioritized other things for shortcuts. > I just noticed that the context menu doesn't include any shortcuts for its > functions (back, forward, reload, etc.) That's because every major platform UI guide states clearly that this should not be done. > I believe Opera has a much better approach here - with extensive use of > shortcuts and listing the shortcuts next to the menus also in context menus. A > possibility to edit the shortcuts using either about:config or (better) GUI > would also be a major improvement. Opera's approach is rather different from what is recommended. Most HIGs recommend only having shortcuts for the most common actions. There's been a trend in some apps to create reams of shortcuts for every action they can pull it off for, which isn't necessarily the best course of action.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → RESOLVED
Closed: 20 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
(In reply to comment #1) > Ctrl-I was always bound to bookmarks for IE key-compatibility. Just as Ctrl-E > is a secondary keybinding for search. This is all by design. Fair enough - but couldn't you make it easier to define/redefine your own shortcuts? > The most common use for Page Info is security info, which most users access via > the secure site icon. Other than that, its a power-userish feature, and we've > prioritized other things for shortcuts. I can understand that it is important to make the transition form IE to Firefox as easy as possible - and that the needs of power users may come second. But is is IMO disappointing when the efforts to make IE=>Firefox-transition easier results in disimprovements for power users. I believe that Mozilla/Firefox' share of power users is much higher than IE - among other things because these browsers offer so much more than IE6 does - and it is power users that draw most advantages out of this "extra" that Mozilla and Firefox offers. So when a new version retracts some of the extra goodies, it is disappointing. > That's because every major platform UI guide states clearly that this should not > be done. I strongly disagree. I haven't seen the arguments for not including shortcuts everywhere, so I may have missed some kind of reason - but I find it quite disturbing if the general recommendation is not to include shortcuts in context menus. In all the programs I use I try to use the shortest possible way when I wan't to give a command to the program. This will typically be a shortcut if I am aware of one, otherwise a right-click using the context menu and only as my third choice the main menu. This means that I will see the context menu a lot more than the main menu - and as a consequence I will have much better chance of leaning shortcuts to menu options used often if the shortcuts are shown besides the menu options in the context menu. Again, if this for some reason is considered "too much" for a new user, then put it in an option ("Show shortcuts in menus YES|NO"). > Opera's approach is rather different from what is recommended. Most HIGs > recommend only having shortcuts for the most common actions. There's been a > trend in some apps to create reams of shortcuts for every action they can pull > it off for, which isn't necessarily the best course of action. Opera's approch is different from Firefox' in two ways - A) they have shortcuts for almost anything B) they list the shortcuts many places I'm not sure that A is the "best course of action" in all cases, but I can't see any problems with B. Next to tabbed browsing, I think that "find as you type" was the most important reason I had to skip IE for Mozilla (and later change to Firefox). Using the keyboard instead of the mouse is vital when you work many hours with a program. On that count I think that every removal of a shortcut is a disimprovement. Page Info may not be used much by ordinary users, but it is an important tool for me as a web developer. The absolute best you could do regarding keyboard shortcuts was to implement a GUI where shortcuts could be defined and redefined.
*** Bug 260011 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 260019 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Ctrl + I still brings up Page Info on linux gtk2/xft installer tarball firefox
(In reply to comment #5) > Ctrl + I still brings up Page Info on linux gtk2/xft installer tarball firefox On Windows 1.0 pre release CTRL+I opens the bookmarks sidebar! In the tools menu there is also no short cut displayed beside the "Page Info" item. In older Firefox versions there was a short cut!
(In reply to comment #6) > (In reply to comment #5) > > Ctrl + I still brings up Page Info on linux gtk2/xft installer tarball firefox > > On Windows 1.0 pre release CTRL+I opens the bookmarks sidebar! > > In the tools menu there is also no short cut displayed beside the "Page Info" > item. In older Firefox versions there was a short cut! As explained here in this bug (see comment 1), there's no shortcut anymore on Windows, because ctrl-I opens the bookmarks window to provide compatibility wiht Internet Explorer. On Linux and Mac OS X, this isn't necessary, so ctrl-I still opens page Info.
Status: RESOLVED → VERIFIED
to Jo Hermans: (In reply to comment #7)> As explained here in this bug (see comment 1), there's no shortcut anymore on > Windows, because ctrl-I opens the bookmarks window to provide compatibility wiht > Internet Explorer. On Linux and Mac OS X, this isn't necessary, so ctrl-I still > opens page Info. What the f***... sorry. Why WONTFIX? Do you mean you are not interested in adding a shortcut for windows firefox again? But a shortcut is needed in some cases! On popup windows that contain a full-size java-applet or flash animation and no tool bar, there is no way to open the "Page Info"-window, if no shortcut is available !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't want to use CTRL+I, choose any other short cut !!!!
to Jo Hermans: (In reply to comment #7)> As explained here in this bug (see comment 1), there's no shortcut anymore on > Windows, because ctrl-I opens the bookmarks window to provide compatibility wiht > Internet Explorer. On Linux and Mac OS X, this isn't necessary, so ctrl-I still > opens page Info. What the f***... sorry. Why WONTFIX? Do you mean you are not interested in adding a shortcut for windows firefox again? But a shortcut is needed in some cases! On popup windows that contain a full-size java-applet or flash animation and no tool bar, there is no way to open the "Page Info"-window, if no shortcut is available !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't want to use CTRL+I, choose any other short cut !!!!
This is mostly a big deal to Mac folks, who don't have slower keyboard access to menu items unless there's an accelerator. On other platforms you can just hit Alt+V I
(In reply to comment #10) > Alt+V ... is no solution for this problem. On this bugzilla page for example, ALT+V scrolls just up and focuses the version menu. Open http://go.icq.com/ and click "If ICQ2Go! does not start - click here"-link. There is no way to open the Page Info window for this popup window that contains a java applet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So a short cut is really needed for some cases !!!
I hear you, the conflict between acceskeys in content and UI mnenomincs is really bad. You can hit Alt separately to get to the menu bar, then hit V then hit I You can also hit F10 to get to the menu bar.
(In reply to comment #13) This does not work for this popup, because the java applet is always focused! But neverthelesse: Think about the fact why the short cut has been removed: Someone wanted to make life more easy for former IE users, to just jave the same short cut. And therefore we make it extremely difficult (or impossible) to open the Page Info window!!!
I will re-open my own bug now, that as been set as duplicate of this bug....
*** Bug 260019 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 260019 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
CTRL+B is displayed as bookmark sidebar short cut. And it does work. Now we have 2 bookmark sidebar short cuts (CTRL+B and CTRL+I). But no short cut for Page Info. This must have been the idea of an very intelligent guy...
*** Bug 260019 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
I think CTRL+B is not needed anymore for the bookmarks sidebar and could be used for Page Info.
Incessantly spamming bugs because you disagree is not going to go very far. There is an extension to rebind keys, I suggest you use it instead of continuing to be rude and breaking numerous bits of bugzilla etiquette.
> > That's because every major platform UI guide states clearly that this should not > > be done. > > I strongly disagree. Its a fact that the UI guides state that context menus shouldn't show shortcuts (accesskeys yes, shortcuts, no) Apple "Commands with keyboard shortcuts should be noted in the menu bar menu but not in the contextual menu." GNOME "Provide an access key for each item. However, to enhance their spatial efficiency and readability, do not show keyboard shortcuts in popup menus." Windows "In addition, access keys, arrow keys, enter, and ESC keys operate in shortcut menus the same way they operate in drop-down menus. However, to enhance spatial efficiency and readability, avoid including shortcut keys in shortcut menus."
Have you ever thought about people who use the mozilla programs on different platforms? On every Operating system they have a Firefox that is different in many ways!!! Just have a look at OpenOffice. They have a program that is very m homogeneous in all platforms! In my oppionion Mozilla should go the same way. Please keep in mind: People who switch from ie to firefox do so because they want to have an other browser, not a clone!
to mike connor: (In reply to comment #21) > There is an extension to rebind keys, I suggest you use it if you mean "keyconfig", this extension has no item to assign a shortcut for Page Info !!!
(In reply to comment #21) > There is an extension to rebind keys, I suggest you use it instead of continuing > to be rude and breaking numerous bits of bugzilla etiquette. Can you give a name and/or link to this extension? If it enables me to rebind shortcuts, I will be a happy man again. For the record - I have no intention of breaking bugzilla etiquette. I guess that the comment was aimed at Norbert (comment #20). I share the wish for a shortcut to page info with Norbert and others, but I strongly disagree with his use of the bugzilla system.
(In reply to comment #22) > Its a fact that the UI guides state that context menus shouldn't show shortcuts > (accesskeys yes, shortcuts, no) I don't (and didn't) doubt what UI guides state regarding shortcut visibility. I do however still disagree with their conclusion. > However, to enhance spatial efficiency and readability, I may have a language problem here (I'm not a native English speaker). I'm not sure I understand "spatial efficiency" correctly. This is probably not the right forum to discuss English terms in, but if you can redirect me to an address where this "spatial efficiency" term is described, I may understand a bit of the argument for not showing shortcuts in context menus.
(In reply to comment #21) > Can you give a name and/or link to this extension? If it enables me to rebind > shortcuts, I will be a happy man again. http://mozilla.dorando.at/keyconfig.xpi but as I already said, it cannot add add shortcuts for funktions that have no shortcut. it looks like it only can change already existing shortcuts.
Please have a look at Bug 261622. I think this would be a better solution for such problems than mutilating Firefox.
In answer to comment 26, whilst I fear that the polysyllabic expression "spatial efficiency" is being used to hide sloppy (or maybe only lazy) thinking, in the context that it was drawn from; there should be no dispute that the proper use of space and spatial cues in HCI design is critically important. See http://mjtsai.com/blog/2002/11/26/that_finder_thing http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html I suspect that the thinking is that because the keyboard short cuts are (or should be) available for the user to scrutinise on the main menu - it seems that Cmd-{ for back (which works) is not on the 'Go' menu after all, ho hum - they are not necessary on the context menu, and are actually undesirable because the context of a context menu is to do one simple thing on the object under the mouse, (Fitt's Law par excellence) without distracting the user by trying to teach him or her how to use the keyboard. In my opinion this is an example of a principle of user interface design which is just outside the top ten (and very hard to perfect) that says that when there is more than one reasonable way of doing something, be wary of offering the user a choice - the effort involved in stopping in one's tracks to select the better of two reasonable alternatives will nearly always be greater than using either consistently, even the worse. If you are just starting out in studying UI design you will need to read at least Tog On Interface http://www.asktog.com/basics/firstPrinciples.html at one end (mine as it happens) of a spectrum and, say, Mathew Thomas http://mpt.phrasewise.com/ at the other. Good luck
I haven't had time to read all of the references you sent, but I would like to make a comment on the article from joelonsoftware.com. He argues that new users gets confused over to many options and advanced users don't really need/use them anyway. I don't think either of those arguments hold. Advanced options can (and should be) hidden from the basic UI - making them invisible for all exept the advanced users. And regarding the argument that configurations doesn't propagate - making them more or less useless: Not all expert users use that many computers. And even if an expert user makes changes to shortcuts, it doesn't nescessarily mean that he actually changes existing shortcuts - in my own experience it is much more common to define new shortcuts than it is to alter existing ones. I have no problem in adjusting to the default set of shortcuts when I occasionally use other computers.
Maybe this is just a dead bug, but anyway. What was the reason to make the changes in shortcuts for Page Info and Downloads? Originally I thought that it was an effort to make Firefox more IE-like, but as Mike Conner stated as early as in comment #1, the changes do not affect how much Firefox shortcuts resemble IE shortcuts. Neither Page Info nor Downloads have equivalent IE functions - so there is no need to make it more equal here. Opera has a download window - which is called with Ctrl-Alt-T or Ctrl-7 - nothing that resembles Ctrl-y or Ctrl-j. So why is Ctrl-j a better choice for the download window than Ctrl-y was? And who decides that an existing shortcut is to be removed? If there were lack of easy-to-use shortcuts (i.e. Ctrl+<single letter>), I could understand why the development team might kill a shortcut to a seldom used function in favor of a shortcut to a function that needed it more. But I can't see any reason in slaughtering a shortcut just because it is to a "power-userish feature". Finally - where should one go to find a full list of changes for a given version of Firefox? The release notes only mention changes in headlines - the page http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/releases/0.10.html goes into some detail, but the changes mentioned in this bug is as far as I can see not mentioned anywhere else? The strength of this bugzilla system - where people can supply feedback to developers and vice versa - is great, but exactly for that reason I get a bit disappointed when some changes apperently are made without informing anyone outside the development team. I still hope for a shortcut to Page Info or (and) a way to define your own shortcuts.
(In reply to comment #31) > Maybe this is just a dead bug, but anyway. It would be nice if it wasn't but I fear that it is. > So why is Ctrl-j a better choice for the download window than Ctrl-y was? CTRL+Y is the shortcut for "Redo", that's why CTRL+J was set to downloads (from being CTRL+Y) I, personally would like to see CTRL+I for the page info keyboard shortcut, since CTRL+B is already for bookmarks (if Comment #18 is right) -- bookmarks doesn't need both.
(In reply to comment #32) > CTRL+Y is the shortcut for "Redo", that's why CTRL+J > was set to downloads (from being CTRL+Y) Ah - I had not noticed that there was a new binding to Ctrl-y (the redo function is only enabled when the undo function has been activated - so just pressing Ctrl-y to check if there is an action doesn't work). > I, personally would like to see CTRL+I for the page > info keyboard shortcut, since CTRL+B is already for Me too - but Ctrl-i is there for IE compatibility, and will propably be hard to change. I've just noticed that the linux version of Firefox uses Ctrl-i to Page Info - but here the need to be "like IE" is not important. As a web developer, I was very fond of Mozilla's shortcut couple Ctrl-i (Page Info) and Shift-Ctrl-i (DOM inspector). My use of these two functions are closely related, and hence it was pleasantly logical that the shortcut keys were so close. An option to enable/disable IE key compatibility could still be one way forward.
(In reply to [my own] comment #32) > I, personally would like to see CTRL+I for the page > info keyboard shortcut, since CTRL+B is already for > bookmarks ... ah, the power of extensions: Pithy 0.2 (Was: For those desiring a page-info hotkey.) http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=135736 I can have it my way, and the WONTFIX can have it theirs!
*** Bug 263188 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
For those of you who spin your own builds, here's the patch I used to assign Ctrl+I to Page Info (instead of Bookmarks) for 1.0PR. It also updates the key bindings in Help to match the new key bindings. This may be bitrotted, but it should be easy enough to unbitrot.
> If there were lack of easy-to-use shortcuts (i.e. Ctrl+<single letter>) On Windows, Firefox has assigned every Ctrl+letter shortcut except Ctrl+Q, which is traditionally Quit. I'm not sure about other platforms. > Finally - where should one go to find a full list of changes for a given version > of Firefox? The release notes only mention changes in headlines - the page > http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/releases/0.10.html goes into some detail, > but the changes mentioned in this bug is as far as I can see not mentioned > anywhere else? http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/ has more detail than http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/releases/. Bonsai has even more detail. If you want to see the bugs in Bugzilla, you could query Bugzilla for bugs marked as FIXED during the release cycle or use the collect buglinks bookmarklet on Bonsai. > On popup windows that contain a full-size java-applet or flash animation and > no tool bar, there is no way to open the "Page Info"-window The same argument can be made for adding a keyboard shortcut or context menu item for dozens of features. The best solution is not to create keyboard shortcuts and context menu items for everything, but to ensure that you can always access the normal menus (bug 69099).
i would like to insist on having a shortcut on windows for popping the PAGE INFO window.. as mentioned in some previous comments if a popup window has no menubar and the content is 100% flash or java it is downright impossible to get the PAGE INFO for it.. it was mentioned that all ctrl+<letter> shortcuts were taken but humm.. is it possible to use like shift-ctrl-i ? thanks and best of luck for the remaining days.. :D
(In reply to comment #38) > it was mentioned that all ctrl+<letter> shortcuts were taken > but humm.. is it possible to use like shift-ctrl-i ? Shift-Ctrl-i is bound to DOM Inspector - a real "poweruser feature" (more than Page Info). I would however not recommend that the shortcut shift-ctrl-i should be moved to Page Info - for Web Developers the DOM Inspector is more important than the Page Info dialog. But since both Page Info and DOM Inspector are relevant tools in web developing, the "old" solution with ctrl-i to Page Info and ctrl-shift-i to DOM Inspector was very nice. /Jens
It really looks like most people would like to have page-info hotkey back instead of 2 for the bookmarks-sidebar. But seems to not interest the developers... :-(
Just hit Alt, release, then V I Or F10 V I
That's not a short cut.
(In reply to comment #41) > Just hit Alt, release, then V I > Or F10 V I this doesn't work if you are viewing a flash file (.swf) as opposed to an html file with embedded flash. The extension I mention in Comment #34 does work, however. > ah, the power of extensions: > > Pithy 0.2 ... > http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=135736 > > > I can have it my way, and the WONTFIXers can have it theirs
(In reply to comment #43) > this doesn't work if you are viewing a flash file (.swf) as opposed to an html > file with embedded flash. If keyboard shortcuts don't work, how would Ctrl+I work?
as specified in comment #38: > as mentioned in some previous comments if a popup window > has no menubar and the content is 100% flash or java > it is downright impossible to get the PAGE INFO for it.. you cannot use ALT-T + I as the menubars are not there in such a popup but a keyboard shortcut would work..
*** Bug 322669 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
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