Open
Bug 29086
Opened 25 years ago
Updated 1 month ago
keybinding needed to enter \t (tab) in multiline textfield (textarea)
Categories
(Core :: DOM: Editor, enhancement)
Core
DOM: Editor
Tracking
()
NEW
Future
People
(Reporter: elig, Unassigned)
References
(Blocks 1 open bug, )
Details
(Keywords: access, Whiteboard: relnote-user)
Attachments
(1 file)
* TITLE/SUMMARY Tabbing within TEXTAREA removes focus from text field * STEPS TO REPRODUCE 0) Launch Apprunner 1) View the Bugzilla bug submission page (http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Browser) 2) In the description field, type some text, press the tab key, and press the space bar. * RESULT - What happened Oops! You've just accidentally submitted your bug, when you meant to merely move your editing caret. (fortunately, you didn't fill out the required fields, so no bug was really submitted.) Rather than inserting a tab into my text entry, the focus changes to the push button immediately following the textfield. - What was expected My off-the-cuff feeling is that a multiline TEXTAREA field on Mac OS should interpret a tab as an acutal tab, rather than as a focus change. On a deeper level, I haven't looked at hundreds of forms on the web to see how this would affect their keyboard navigation, so I don't really know. IE 4.5 will change focus to the next textfield on the page. Although obviously not using HTML forms, MT-Newswatcher is smart enough to assume that users who press tab in a one-line text field wish to go to the next field --- whereas users who press tab within their posting (a large TextEdit field?) actually wish a tab to be inserted. I've CC:'d German and a few fellow Mac weenies in case they have comments. (Hi, Mr. Masri. ;) * REGRESSION - Occurs On Mac OS Apprunner (2.24.00 optimized build) - Doesn't Occur On Win32 Apprunner (behavior is consistent with platform standards) Communicator 4.72 (some pre-RTM build) * CONFIGURATIONS TESTED - [Mac] Beige Power Mac G3 (266 MHz PowerPC 750), 96 MB RAM (VM on; 1 MB of VM used), 1024x768 (Thousands of Colors), Mac OS 8.6 - [Win32] Vectra VL (233 MHz P2), 96 MB RAM, 800x600 (True Color), NT 4.0 SP5. - [Linux] Vectra VL (266 MHz P2), 96 MB RAM. Red Hat Linux 6.0 (GNOME).
Reporter | ||
Comment 1•25 years ago
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[QA Assigning to self, since I have a personal interest in the issue.]
QA Contact: sujay → elig
Comment 2•25 years ago
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Thanks for cc'ing me. We keep meeting like this... :) Communicator 4.7 follows Mac HIG correctly. When you hit tab in a single-line field, you tab to the next text field. When you hit tab in a multi-line TEXTEDIT area, you insert a true tab. There may be legitimate reasons why one would want to insert a tab into a TEXTEDIT field; disabling this ability would be a mistake, IMO. Besides, this matches behavior on previous browsers. And, if websites don't want tabs, they should be stripping all illegal characters out from the submitted form anyway. I don't know if this is HIG-compliant on other platforms. - Adam
Comment 3•25 years ago
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masri--I can't find your references in my copy of Apple HIG. My copy (page 276) says: In text-oriented applications, the Tab key is uesed to move the insertion point to the next tab stop. In other contexts, Tab is a signal to proceed: it signals movement to the next item in a sequence. Since this isn't a word processor, I'm not sure that <textarea>s should insert a /t or some number of spaces or do the navigation as it currently does. I think that the above quote from Apple HIG could be interpreted either way. Does someone have a newer version of Apple HIG? The HTML 4.0 spec doesn't provide much guidance either though they do have use the following as an example: "...the 'tab' key is used for navigation and the 'enter' key is used to activate a selected element" To me, it's pretty clear that if we want to be html 4.0 compliant, we need to provide *a* key/keyCombination to navigate across the required elements (a, area, button, input, object, select, and textarea). Does anyone want to suggest a key if we aren't going to use Tab? Reassign bug to German for his decision. German--please reassign to me when you decide how we want to handle this.
Assignee: brade → german
Comment 4•25 years ago
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Convention in Mac applications is to have Command-tab tab you out of a text area that can itself receive tab keys. Shift-command-tab should also let you tab backwards out of a textarea.
Comment 5•25 years ago
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I don't think this is pp. I'm pretty sure it's standard behavior in MacOS, Windows, and Motif (and probably GTK as well). Unfortunately, neither Apple nor Microsoft seem to mention it specifically in their UI guidelines. And it should apply to all XPFE multi-line text boxes, not just those in HTML content. Here's how it works (on MacOS, for `Ctrl' read `Command'): * Ctrl+Tab = navigate to next control, for all controls * Tab = navigate to next control, for all controls except multi-line text boxes (in multi-line text boxes, = insert tab) * Ctrl+Shift+Tab = navigate to previous control, for all controls * Shift+Tab = navigate to previous control, for all controls except multi-line text boxes (in multi-line text boxes, = insert tab) This is consistent with the other thing unique to multi-line text boxes, which is the result of pressing Return/Enter: * Ctrl+{Return/Enter} = activate default dialog button (if it exists), for all controls * {Return/Enter} = activate default dialog button (if it exists), for all controls except multi-line text boxes (in multi-line text boxes, = insert line break).
Keywords: 4xp
Comment 6•25 years ago
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mpt, command-tab on MacOS 9 causes a cycle through currently running programs (I believe this is a new feature of MacOS 9, and it's certainly one I didn't know about, so uh, thanks. :) ). Control-tab and option-tab on MacOS Communicator 4.7 simply inserts another tab; it doesn't tab to the next field. Communicator 4.7's behavior is to insert a true \t when the user hits the tab key. If you type a few characters, then hit tab, it's very obvious it is NOT inserting some set number of spaces. it is inserting a true tab stop. I cannot find a particular description of this wanted behavior listed anywhere in the HIG manual. However, HIG also doesn't specifically DISALLOW this behavior. Do we really want to bar the user from typing a true \t in a textedit field, when that might be precisely what they wanted to add? There may be a legitimate reason to have a \t in a text field, such as a CGI form that takes text from a field and automatically builds a web page from it, complete with indents. Well-written CGIs that didn't want the \t should automatically parse all that stuff out when the form is submitted. And they must be doing this, because this is allowed behavior on Communicator 4.7, which means at least 50% of Internet users now have the ability to put a tab stop in a form. Once again, this falls back to Mac HIG: if you're adding features to your application that do not specifically violate HIG, and make the application more pleasant to use for the user or yield "expected" behavior, then the addition is a good idea. Therefore, since no violation of HIG is occuring by having this feature, I'd suggest that tab insert a true tab stop (not spaces), and control- tab be used to tab out of the multi-line TEXTEDIT field. - Adam
Comment 7•25 years ago
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Actually, Command-Tab has been in MacOS since 8.0, and I should have realized I was creating a clash. Whoops. (In my defence, I took sfraser's claim at face value, and didn't check it myself; it turned out to be wrong, at least for MacOS 8.0 and upwards.) Other MacOS apps aren't helpful for precedents here. * Communicator 4.x: there's no way of getting out of a multi-line text field with the keyboard at all, which is bad news. * MacOS Finder > File Info > Comments field: Tab takes you out of the field, and there's no way of inserting a tab. * MS Office 98 > File > Properties > Comments field: Tab takes you out of the field, and there's no way of inserting a tab. Perhaps we should treat {inserting a tab character} as the special case, rather than {tabbing out of a multi-line text field} as the special case. In my years of using the Web I can't remember ever wanting to insert a tab character in a text field. So presumably if someone wants to do it, it's rare enough that they'll be willing to do something slightly more complicated than using the naked Tab key. So why don't we make Ctrl+Tab (not Command+Tab) the key sequence -- on all platforms, including Mac -- for inserting a tab character in a multi-line text field? Then we can make Tab the key for going to the next field in *all* widgets, and this bug can be resolved wontfix.
Comment 8•25 years ago
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>Other MacOS apps aren't helpful for precedents here. Consultant, a Mac PIM, has a useful precedent here. In the comments field of a contact form, hitting tab does not move you back to the first field again. It inserts a true tab (not spaces). Command- or Option- or Control-tab do not move you to a different field. Database applications also typically work this way, where a tab in a multi-line text field will indeed insert a \t . The applications you listed are poor examples, because there is no legitimate reason to need to insert a tab in those multi-line TEXTEDIT areas. There IS a legitimate reason to insert a \t in a TEXTEDIT field in Communicator for the reasons I previously outlined. >So presumably if someone wants to do it, it's rare enough >that they'll be willing to do something slightly more >complicated than using the naked Tab key. This would change established norms of HIG (at least on the Mac platform), which would be a very bad idea. We would be wiser to use tab for its intended purpose in multi-line TEXTEDIT fields, and use the special case (ctrl-tab) to move outside a multi-line TEXTEDIT field. - Adam
Comment 9•25 years ago
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Ok, use Ctrl+Tab/Ctrl+Shift+Tab as something which navigates out of all gadgets, on all platforms, and Tab/Shift+Tab as something which navigates out of all gadgets, *except* multi-line text fields, on all platforms. Everybody happy? (BTW, you can't refer to the Macintosh HIGs as if they support either one view or the other, because they don't -- unless a multi-line text field is a `text-oriented application' and a single-line text field is not, which is a pretty dubious claim to make.)
Comment 10•24 years ago
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This bug is on a collision course with bug 18936. CCing lake. It would make life a *whole* lot easier if we just forgot about being able to enter tab characters in multi-line text fields. Can anyone, anyone, give me a single example where this would be useful on the Web or in Mozilla's chrome? Not HIG-compliant (which isn't that relevant, since Mac doesn't have full keyboard navigation for widgets anyway), but actually *useful*?
Reporter | ||
Comment 11•24 years ago
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I encounter this problem daily when submitting bug reports. (Granted, that usage of multiline text fields is not representative of what most people use browsers for.)
Comment 12•24 years ago
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mpt, I think I already gave potentially useful examples of where this would be required. Example: a CGI that automatically posts news items that a user could submit to a web page, with indents for each news item. Example: getting a web- based interface to modify a tab-delimited text file that is used by a web-based application on systems that don't allow telnet access. Those are just the first two that pop up in my mind. I'm sure if we all sat here, we could think of lots of reasons to not disable the ability to add a true \t. One of the things specifically covered in HIG is that when you have the choice between: 1) disabling an expected behavior to include a useful feature, or 2) implementing a useful feature in a way that may not work on all systems, without disabling expected behaviors you always pick 2. Precedent? The original Mac (128/512/+) keyboard had no control key, while later systems (after the SE was released in 1986 or so) did. There were applications that would require the use of the control key; these applications would have to be changed, because forcing the user to use that key disabled an expected behavior of the application. On the other hand, implementing a useful feature using a key not available on all keyboards (like function keys or the control key) is perfectly acceptable, as long as there's another way to access that function on systems w/o all those keys present (a menu item, dialog box, etc). Then, you haven't disabled the behavior, you've simply made it slightly more difficult to access (requiring the use of the mouse, perhaps). Therefore, my expectation is that Moz follow current conventions of Communicator 4.7, and allow tabs in textedit areas. If the user wants to tab out of a multi- line textedit, they can either use the mouse, or a useful addition we add for them (like control-tab, or something else that doesn't conflict with another expected behavior as command-tab would). If this violates some section of CSS, then CSS is wrong and should be modified. Why would we want to disable features that someone might need? - Adam
Reporter | ||
Comment 13•24 years ago
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This bug has an additional component that I didn't include in the original report, probably because UI objects don't return to an unfocused visual state, so I thought nothing of it. ;) Namely, on this morning's Mac OS build, if you: - go to a bug report, and type "foobar" - place the editing caret in front of the word "foobar" - press the tab key ...the focus will move to the next form object, *and* the word "foobar" will have a tab inserted to its left. beppe & petersen are seeing this on Windows, but are unable to reproduce on the same Mac build running on the same OS.
Comment 14•24 years ago
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>There may be a legitimate reason to have a \t in a text field, such as a CGI
>form that takes text from a field and automatically builds a web page from it,
>complete with indents. Well-written CGIs that didn't want the \t should
>automatically parse all that stuff out when the form is submitted.
Huh? Just because some browsers don't let you put tabs in, all CGI scripts
should strip them out?
Comment 15•24 years ago
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Changing summary of this bug so that we have "moz should x instead of y" and "moz should y instead of x" instead of "moz x's" and "moz should x instead of y", which is confusing.
Summary: Tabbing within TEXTAREA removes focus from text field → Tab in TEXTAREA should insert \t instead of switching fields
Comment 16•24 years ago
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davidr, how could you read all the comments in this bug report, and then come to that conclusion? That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that if a CGI needed a \t , and we disabled that ability for Moz to produce one in a text field, then that's bad. If a CGI doesn't want a \t , and Moz produces one (due to the operator typing one), that's perfectly ok, because CGI's are generally built to disregard input they don't want to see anyway. - Adam
Comment 17•24 years ago
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I saw another bug report where basically the opposite problem was reported elsewhere in the browser. My own take on this is that it should be a prefs option. Those who are used to NS/IE behavior can leave that as a default (Tab, regardless of the field, switches to next field [and should switch to the address bar if that's the next field! See bugs 33069, 36278, 31809]), while those who prefer a more editor/wordprocessor-like behavior can pick a select box that changes the behavior to insert tab instead of change focus, in a multi-line text field. You could even allow them to insert tab in a ONE-line field, if they so desire. An adjunct to this would be to make Cmd-Tab (Ctrl-Tab for Windows people, I guess) 1) insert a tab, regardless of field length, if the user's prefs are "Tab changes focus always" or 2) shift focus to next field, if user's prefs are "Tab always inserts a tab". If the user's picked "Tab shifts focus except in a multiline field", Cmd/Ctrl-Tab could be either way, depending what they want it to do. PS: I'd strongly advise against making Tab do anything other than tabbing for shifting focus, such as inserting x number of space characters. If I wanted to insert 5 spaces, I'd hit Sp
Comment 18•24 years ago
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That is a good suggestion and I agree with you on the default. Now we get to the other problem of getting it into the prefs. I'll suggest it to the Prefs people and designers. I feel that for the web as it currently is used and for the forseeable future going to the next field will be the 90% case for most web sites. There are few cases where high end editing is required.
Comment 19•24 years ago
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lake,
>I feel that for the web as it currently
>is used and for the forseeable future
>going to the next field will be the 90%
>case for most web sites.
And I think I've proven multiple times in a row that you are 1) removing
functionality and 2) not following current Communicator behavior. But I'm sure
that your countless hours of intensive usability testing have confirmed that your
suggestion is the correct one.
On this, we agree to disagree.
- Adam
Comment 20•24 years ago
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It should be a prefs option? Ha ha, very funny. You would have added the UI/bloat/support track/confusion required for another pref, and you wouldn't have solved much because most people wouldn't even realize the pref existed. I know it hurts, but sometimes you have to actually Make A Decision (!) about which behavior to use. One or the other. I'm sticking with my recommendation of Tab to insert tabs, Ctrl+Tab to get out of TEXTAREAs -- mainly because if you were going to write a document with a lot of tabs, pressing Ctrl+Tab each time would be annoying (much more annoying than having to occasionally press Ctrl+Tab instead of Tab to navigate between items in a page). mech@eff.org: as already described in this report, Cmd+Tab is reserved for switching between applications. This would be Ctrl+Tab only.
OS: Mac System 8.5 → All
Hardware: Macintosh → All
Comment 21•24 years ago
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Adam--I don't think we would be removing functionality if you couldn't insert a \ t by pressing the tab key. You could still paste the character into the field if that is what you truly wanted. Is it true that all platforms of 4.x Communicator allow you to insert a tab by pressing the tab key? Personally, I find it *VERY* annoying that I can't move to the next field from a textarea (or the previous field). I think for consistency and standards compliance, we should use the tab key for navigation only and set control-tab or some other combination to do insertion of tabs (since far fewer people will want to insert tab characters). My interpretation of the html 4.0 standard is that we need to provide *1* keybinding to do forward navigation. You can't change the keybinding in the middle. That would truly suck if you were visually impaired and didn't necessarily know you were in a textarea as opposed to a single line input or button. My vote is for tab as the universal keybinding to navigate forward for beta2 and see how many people complain about not being able to insert tab characters in textareas. By the way, why is a textarea special? why can't I insert tab characters in single line inputs?
Comment 22•24 years ago
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mpt, you (justifiably) complain that some people wouldn't be able to find a pref, but what about the people who can't figure out that ctrl-tab exits a textarea? another point: internet explorer lets you tab out of a textarea. any cgi that requires tabs probably has already given its users an extra way to input them, perhaps by putting a literal "\t" in or by putting in a fixed number of spaces.
Comment 23•24 years ago
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"You could still paste the character into the field if that is what you truly wanted." And exactly how would one do that, especially one who is not that familiar with the web or GUIs anyway? An onscreen button on the webpage, which takes up unnecessary space and forces the page designer to screw around with JavaScript? You certainly aren't thinking that they use an ASCII code to text translator program, copying the character into the clipboard, then pasting it into the document? Gee, that's improvement. "That would truly suck if you were visually impaired and didn't necessarily know you were in a textarea as opposed to a single line input or button." That is a totally specious argument. Visually impaired people are NOT going to be using Moz to do ANY kind of surfing. They will be using Lynx and speech synthesis software. Engineering has seen to that-- since you aren't using native UI widgets, any software that can control the UI for the visually impaired will not operate with Communicator, since none of its controls are actual UI components anyway. And frankly, I don't see the point of hardwiring anything into the source. More likely, some of the parsing routines of Moz will make their way into Lynx at some point in the future, so Lynx can view newer types of webpages. All the UI features in the world are useless to a visually impaired user. "By the way, why is a textarea special? why can't I insert tab characters in single line inputs?" This is more a historical issue than anything else. In the early days (1984), the only consumer-viewable GUI ran on a Mac 128K with a 512x384 pixel screen. You didn't want to use any unnecessary space for onscreen buttons, and the entire point of a GUI is to use the mouse to do a lot of things (click where you used to type). One of the key tenants of good usability design is to always give the user a more efficient way of doing something they do repeatedly, without taking away a potentially desired ability (even if it isn't desired by you). A single-line text field is normally dealt with the same way a field in a database or spreadsheet in text-based systems is dealt with. You enter text, and you move along to the next field to enter more. Because Apple's designers didn't want to break away with computing tradition (text based interfaces used tab to move to the next field), and they wanted the interface to mimic real-world devices the user had probably used (a typewriter, typing on a form, using tab to move from field to field), the tab key's job became movement from one field to the next, in places where inserting a tab didn't make sense. In a word processor, you want the interface to "feel" like something they're familiar with (a typewriter), and a typewriter often has adjustable margins, so why not have the tab key do exactly what a typewriter would do-- kick out the cursor a certain distance, specifyable by the user? So, now we get to a TEXTAREA. A TEXTAREA is a multi-line text field, like a word processor. Does it always make sense to insert a tab? No. As I discussed previously, it totally depends on the usage of the field. In a notes field in the Finder, or in many popular PIMs, the designers decided that tabs make no sense in a notes field. Most likely, the desired operation would be to move out to the next field. If the user wanted an indent, they can hit the space bar a couple times. Also, many other PIMs either don't have notes fields, or any kind of tab insertion would screw up a tab-delimited export/import operation. Best to stay away from tabs in these cases. So why do I see Moz being a bit different? Because Communicator is an interface to applications running on other computers, and Moz will be too. Whatever you want to call Moz (a browser, a web-based application development environment, or any other marketing speak), that's what it is. And the ability to insert a tab into a foreign computer program may be a necessity, or may be the basis for some new program we haven't seen yet. I think adding yet another prefs option is idiotic. You absolutely must make a decision on this issue. But you need to make one that conforms to good UI design principles: give the user the ABILITY to have a keyboard shortcut, without taking anything away from them. And if you think about the permutations of different keyboard-based shortcuts, the only one that makes any sense is to allow the tab key to insert a true \t, and control-tab to move out of the field. The user can still use the mouse, if they didn't know the shortcut. You haven't taken anything away from them. The opposite is not true: for the user that doesn't know the shortcut, they can't insert a \t if that was desired. You're forcing the user to learn new things about your program's UI at gunpoint, instead of allowing the user to learn keyboard shortcuts over time, as their proficiency increases. I think this is one reason why Mac users hate PC/Win/UNIX users so much. Since these users grew up with the keyboard and text-based shells, they expect there to be a keyboard way to do everything at the expense of good UI design. Mac users want a beautiful, functional UI first and foremost-- worry about the keybaord shortcuts later. Different philosophy. - Adam
Comment 24•24 years ago
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Ok I think we have gotten to the point where more discussion won't really get us an where but I'll give it one more try. I agree that there should be a way to put a tab into a text field. I have always agreed with this. There should be an obvious way to navigate out of a field with out using the mouse. Where we disagree is on how this is to be done. Am I right? Our two proposals for are: Tab to enter a Tab and Ctrl+Tab to go to the next field. or Tab go to the next field and another Ctrl+ (Tab or alpha numeric) to enter a tab. (Here we should note some current 4.x behavior on the PC. Ctrl+Tab cycles through open 4.X windows even in a multi line field) My survey of Keyboard user showed that this was a valuable feature I don't want to take away from this functionality these people use it every day and many times per day on different applications and websites. On the other hand Mac does things differently. and it works for them. Should we consider making the mac version different? Possibly. Should we make every thing behave like the Mac? ... Especially when a good deal more people are now used to the PC it's probably not a good idea. But before we get into a new can of worms. Lets consider the user, You know the ones that can't find the prefs and just want to get their work done, they don't read help and like that. They are happily tabbing away possibly they come accross a comments section in the form they are filling out. They don't have any comments so they want to move on. They hit Tab and they start looking for the focus.... "not there"... "may be it didn't hit it" they think... (users try again when something they expect to work does not. I have lots of tapese of this if you want to see one I got just a few weeks ago) After a little of this maybe they get frustrated maybe they try finally look back in the multi line text field... Finally they see the flashing cursor in the middle of the field? "How did that get there?" they may well wonder. Then if they get it that a Tab incerted a "Tab" the next natural reaction is... "OH I guess tab doesn't work here How do I get out of this field? I have to use the mouse." This is what we call a failure in the Utest Field. Now lets take hypothetical the user to another situation where they want to enter the comments in the field... They Tab over to the multi line field and start typing and want to indent or enter a Tab they Press Tab and it goes to the next field.. "Where did my cursor go? OH but I wanted a Tab...I guess Tab still Tabs to the next field." they Shift Tab back to the field and try again to indent...if Tab doesn't work it is not likely they will know that Ctrl+Tab enters a tab but they do know Tab takes them to the next field. "So I guess I have to enter some spaces instead". They can still complete the form with out using the mouse. yes this is inconvenient and it does cause some errors but they are still able to get the task done. (Not using the mouse is a W3C WAI requirement not a suggestion) (Also there was some work on a floating palet that works for formating HTML text so they can select a few lines and the pallet will let them indent, change the color, and all that in a multi line text field on a web page. You can site guidelines and good UI behavior but if it confuses the user or does not serve the user is it really the right way to go? Guidelines are just that guidelines and they are not laws and they do not cover every instance of UI. Another note here is that Blind and visulally impaired users do use Netscape and IE. They use it with a screen reader like JAWS or MAGic. They "Look" of the UI is irrelivent To JAWS users but the keyboard operation is the same. So brade's statement of use for usually impaired is valid. Tab use consistency (not switching the out come of a tab press) is very importiant. Another thing that is importiant for Netscape though not so much for Mozilla is the implications for this effecting our business with the government as they are required by law to provide for diabled employees appropriate tools to allow then to perform their job and of course not to discriminate based on disability. (Now I'm not saying changing tab behavior in multiline text fields totally disables the application for disabled users but given a choice and yes they still have one we could lose big money because of this.)
Comment 25•24 years ago
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I agree too that need for consistent navigation traversing all keyboard navigatable fields is more basic than and overrides the need to insert tabs at certain occasions in text areas. Thus I suggest as well: tab -> always moves to the next field shift tab -> always moves to the prev field I agree with Matts statement that we should treat inserting tabs as the less common case.
Target Milestone: --- → M20
Comment 26•24 years ago
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Well, one thing we do agree on is that we've reached the end of this discussion. Somebody actually needs to make a decision now. "On the other hand Mac does things differently. and it works for them." I would not be surprised that an audit of Windows and/or UNIX apps would find instances of the behavior I'm asking for where it makes sense. I doubt this is simply a "Mac" way of doing things, I believe this is a UI-conformant way of doing things. "I have lots of tapese of this if you want to see one I got just a few weeks ago" I had no idea you've actually done usability testing on this particular issue. So, I apologize for my totally smartass comment. Did you only do these tests on Windows? I know that Windows represents a majority of the desktop systems in existence, but what I find unfortunate is that most people I know who use Windows have a general disdain for GUIs anyway. It's too bad you didn't run your tests on a group of people who really like GUIs, to see if the same problems you ran across would happen to them. I doubt it, because they know how a good UI is supposed to act. My opinion of Windows has always been that since the users don't really like GUIs anyway, it's no wonder that the apps don't always conform to UI standards (and the users don't bother to complain about UI inconcistencies), which causes the users to not know what to expect of an application. If all your testing was w/Windows users, then no wonder your test subjects were so confused. "They Tab over to the multi line field and start typing and want to indent or enter a Tab they Press Tab and it goes to the next field.. "Where did my cursor go? OH but I wanted a Tab...I guess Tab still Tabs to the next field." Is that what you think would happen, or is that what you actually obsered in usability testing? Once again, adherence to a strong GUI standard would alleviate, if not outright dismiss, these types of failed expectations. "if Tab doesn't work it is not likely they will know that Ctrl+Tab enters a tab but they do know Tab takes them to the next field. "So I guess I have to enter some spaces instead" ... Which totally fails the reason this bug report was entered in the first place. I'd love to hear other people's options on how one would insert a real \t where it was needed. But in the end, it's engineering's call. Both situations are less than ideal. I know engineering is getting sick of ifdefs all over the code, but the way Mac users will expect the tab to operate is the way I'm outlining. So, if you're unwilling to have tab work this way on all platforms, then at least make it work this way on the Mac. This is the way Mac users expect a tab will operate. - Adam
Comment 27•24 years ago
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I have only read approx. one third of the comments of this bug, but I'd like to say that I like the 4.x behaviour that the tab key in textareas really inserts a tab, for the same reason elig@netscape.com mentioned: It is useful in formatting bug reports, and I would really miss them. I just wanted to mention that this bug's summary conflicts with bug 18934 "textarea [TAB] should move to next field, not 6 spaces." Bug 31232 is about the question how to write javascript for turning off the current "go to the next widget" functionality and replacing it by "insert a tab into textarea", which is in my opinion what most page designers would want for textareas.
Comment 28•24 years ago
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seems like a decision has been made; German--could you reassign this bug to beppe (without a milestone)? Andreas Franke--for compatibility with the html4 standard we need to provide a key to navigate across all form elements; the decision is that this key will be tab in mozilla.
Comment 29•24 years ago
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Having read _all_ comments of this bug, I'd like to add some more notes: First of all, I'm on Linux, have never really used IE, and currently running Communicator 4.5 (and I like it). The behaviour for textareas is the following: - Ctrl-Tab always jumps to the next form control - Tab inserts a real tab in a textarea - Alt-Tab doesn't do anything - Ctrl-Alt-Tab behaves like Tab in a textarea, and inserts a space in a single line text field (maybe not very important...) I'll try to summarize the main points as I see them. "Should Tab in TEXTAREA insert \t instead of switching fields ?" ================================================================ Pro: - there should be an easy way to format texts in a textarea - everything but plain Tab would be really odd for this purpose - backwards compatibility with 4.x Contra: - there has to be one key that always navigates to the next item - IE uses Tab for this purpose - Ctrl-Tab already has a job: switch between navigator windows - everything else would be really odd My solution for all this (except compatibility with IE): - Tab should insert a tab in a textarea - Ctrl-Tab should always navigate to the next field - Alt-Tab could switch between navigator windows (this would even make sense because Alt-N is the shortcut for opening a new navigator window) Since most people know about Shift-Tab, it should not be too difficult to find out about Ctrl-Tab (just another modifier). On the contrary, it would be really hard to use Modifier+Tab while editing text. And if there is any reason why this is not possible on Windows, it could still be implemented for Mac and Unix. Well, I have to accept that the decision has been made, but since mozilla is open source, I should be able to hack my own version... :) Actually, this may be a good starting point. Is it all XUL, or is it hardcoded in C code?
Comment 30•24 years ago
|
||
Ok, in my previous comment I should have said that I was using fvwm95-2. Unfortunately, KDE already uses the proposed Modifier+Tab keys: - Ctrl-Tab switches between desktops - Alt-Tab switches between applications Thus my simple solution wouldn't work under KDE, but switching between Navigator windows via Ctrl-Tab wouldn't work either... :-(
Comment 31•24 years ago
|
||
Actually, KDE uses the "Scroll Lock" key to swich on/off this predefined behaviour of Ctrl-Tab and Alt-Tab (and maybe other keys). Thus my solution would still work under KDE :-)
Comment 32•24 years ago
|
||
I shouldn't have said that I like Communicator. It just crashed after I had written quite a long comment here... :( Well, mozilla will be better. Here we go again: After some experimentation with fvwm95-2, KDE, Gnome and WinNT I finally have to agree that it is a bad idea to mess around with Alt-Tab because all systems seem to use it for switching between all application windows. The only exception is fvwm95-2, which is not quite modern... I tried out Ctrl-Tab with Communicator 4.7 on WinNT, and I'm really impressed. It's a great feature! Since there are also other apps on Win that use this shortcut for the same purpose (e.g. CorelDraw), it should be kept, at least on win. However, to be consistent, Ctrl-Shift-Tab should cycle through the Navigator windows in the reverse order. Currently 4.7 does something different, which is bad. So we're quickly running out of modifiers, at least on win, and we'll inevitably arrive at Tab/Shift-Tab for tabbing through the form controls. That's why I finally agree with the decision, at least for windows. Ctrl-Alt-Tab also makes sense: it prepares to leave the site (as opposed to quit the application like Ctrl-Alt-Del does) by navigating to the location field and selecting the complete URL, thus getting ready to replace it with a newly typed one. Ctrl-Alt-Tab can be entered most easily using both hands, but that's not a problem because you're expected to type something directly afterwards anyway. However I insist that there should be some way to enter plain tabs into a textarea form control, even on win, and preferably by using the tab key without any modifier. What about a possibility to switch to an ``edit mode''? This could push the ordinary tabbing through form controls from Tab/Shift-Tab to Ctrl-Tab/Ctrl-Shift-Tab, overwriting the ``Switch between navigator windows'' behaviour, while enabling both Tab and Shift-Tab to insert a plain tab in the textarea field. The user should always know whether this ``edit mode'' is active or not, so maybe one could use the "Scroll Lock" key for this (there is an LED associated with it). As far as I can see, this would not violate the decision that has been made. What would be the problems with this approach? Are there any major platforms that do not have this key? Are there any problems with the detection of the current state of this key? Would this cause any major usability problems? Well, I'm commiting this now to avoid a second crash of Communicator...
Comment 33•24 years ago
|
||
So the final call is that the tab behavior should follow as in German's 05/02 conclution. reassign it to beppe
Assignee: german → beppe
Comment 34•24 years ago
|
||
Eli -- is the tabbing behavior consistent across platforms? Does the use of the tab set focus to the next form element? In addition, does shift-tab reverse the selection?
Target Milestone: M20 → ---
Reporter | ||
Comment 35•24 years ago
|
||
Offhand, I have no idea. However, I'm sure that someone CC'd to this bug report could tell you. ;)
Comment 36•24 years ago
|
||
beppe -- yes, tab behavior is identical across platforms in Mozilla. Is that what you meant? The reason the pp keyword is still there, I think, is because implementing this will involve a deviation from the usual XP mapping of (Windows Ctrl == Mac OS Cmd). Cmd+Tab is already used on MacOS, so Ctrl+Tab needs to be used instead in this case. So German's decision can be interpreted thusly, for multi-line text widgets (I'm sure German will stop me if I'm wrong): Action Windows, Unix Mac OS --------------------------------------------------------------- Move to next field Tab Tab Move to previous field Shift+Tab Shift+Tab Insert tab character Ctrl+Tab Ctrl+Tab (*not* Cmd+Tab) Resummarizing to reflect this.
Summary: Tab in TEXTAREA should insert \t instead of switching fields → Tab in TEXTAREA -> next field; Ctrl+Tab -> insert tab character
Comment 37•24 years ago
|
||
Summary by Matthew Thomas is: Action Windows, Unix Mac OS --------------------------------------------------------------- Move to next field Tab Tab Move to previous field Shift+Tab Shift+Tab Insert tab character Ctrl+Tab Ctrl+Tab (*not* Cmd+Tab) I don't think this last item will work. My understanding is that Ctrl-Tab is used to cycle through windows or applications or something similar (at least on Windows). Do we have a different keybinding for inserting a /t?
Comment 38•24 years ago
|
||
OK every one. Shuang made the last call that German's 5/2/2000 statement is final. And the decision is: tab -> always moves to the next field shift tab -> always moves to the prev field He did not say except for in a multi line field. Ctrl+Tab in any case was not mentioned in the statement. Only that entering tabs shjould be treated as the less common case. And it is confirmed that Ctrl+Tab will be used for other purposes. Entering a Tab into a field will be accomidated but not by Ctrl+Tab.
Comment 39•24 years ago
|
||
Well, ok, so if `Entering a Tab into a field will be accomidated but not by Ctrl+Tab', then what *will* it be accommodated by? Without that key-binding being published, this bug as originally reported can't be resolved.
Summary: Tab in TEXTAREA -> next field; Ctrl+Tab -> insert tab character → In TEXTAREA: navigate = Tab/Shift+Tab; enter tab char. = ???
Comment 40•24 years ago
|
||
Matthew--good question. Perhaps we should discuss in a newsgroup? (mozilla.editor newsgroup?)
Comment 41•24 years ago
|
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assigning this over to rods -- Rod we need to make sure that the tab functions work accordingly: Action Windows, Unix Mac OS --------------------------------------------------------------- Move to next field Tab Tab Move to previous field Shift+Tab Shift+Tab I am recommending that we add a new shortcut -- such as ctrl+t or alt+t, sending a note to lake to see if that is possible. Opening a bug against jfrancis to ensure we support \t in the editor
Assignee: beppe → rods
Comment 42•24 years ago
|
||
Ctrl+t is possible for Browser and for Composer but not for Mail at the moment. It would be real nice to have it work the same way on all of these. But there is legacy with that combination for getting new mail. Ctrl+j is so much less intuitve but it is avaliabel on all of these so far. If we want to use ctrl+t every where we need Mail buy in. ctrl+shift+t is also taken by a similar function in Mail.
Comment 43•24 years ago
|
||
i dont get it. editor already supports tabs.
Updated•24 years ago
|
Status: NEW → ASSIGNED
Target Milestone: --- → M17
Comment 44•24 years ago
|
||
I don't get it either... but I am setting it to M17
Comment 45•24 years ago
|
||
this has to do with tab behavior in forms, in the browser -- not composer. Reassigning this to saari
Assignee: rods → saari
Status: ASSIGNED → NEW
Comment 46•24 years ago
|
||
*** Bug 18934 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 47•24 years ago
|
||
How about this?: Action Effect --------------------------------------- Move to next field Alt-Right Arrow Move to previous field Alt-Left Arrow Insert tab character Tab As far as I can tell, this satisfies all three requirements and should be able to work on all three platforms (at least it should work on Windows and Linux -- Apple can use CMD-Arrow).
Comment 48•24 years ago
|
||
Stephen, not only is the Alt+Left/+Right key-binding you suggest inconsistent with all three major toolkits (Windows, Mac, and GTK), but it is also reserved for Back and Forward (see bug 39038). I'm just watching, fascinated, as people come up with ever-more-obscure keyboard combinations for doing something as simple as entering a tab character. All I need now is some popcorn. :-)
Comment 49•24 years ago
|
||
I Just noticed that currently hitting tab in a TEXTAREA will place a 'tab' character into the TEXTAREA and move you forward one widget. This is bad! AFAIK Html text widgets aren't supposed and have never taken tab characters. I know for a fact that this "feature" will break some CGI code I've written in the past that takes advantage of the fact that web browsers don't send tab characters to the server.
Comment 50•24 years ago
|
||
This is not 100% true. On Netscape 4.72, entering a tab in a text area will enter a tab into the field. It will not, however, move to the next field. It should do one or the other but not both.
Comment 51•24 years ago
|
||
Joseph, read the whole bug report. Mozilla (in its Netscape incarnation) has *always* supported entry of tab characters into textareas. If your CGIs will be broken by Mozilla allowing tabs, they're broken already. And the duplicate behavior (entering a tab character *and* going to the next field) has already been noted. I see that this bug is currently directed towards breaking WAI guidelines #5.8 and #10.2, in order to provide one of the possible implementations of WAI guideline #7.3. I believe this is referred to as `one step forward, two steps back' ...
Updated•24 years ago
|
Target Milestone: M17 → Future
Comment 52•24 years ago
|
||
*** Bug 56407 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Updated•24 years ago
|
Component: Editor → Keyboard Navigation
QA Contact: elig → sairuh
Comment 53•24 years ago
|
||
Nominating for relnoteRTM. Is there currently any way to get to the next field?
Keywords: access,
relnoteRTM
Whiteboard: relnote-user
Comment 54•24 years ago
|
||
After all that ... *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of 2083 ***
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 24 years ago
Resolution: --- → DUPLICATE
Comment 55•24 years ago
|
||
actually I don't think this is a duplicate of #2083. This bug might be better summarized as "What keybinding should allow users to enter /t in a multiline textfield?" We know we can't use tab, shift-tab, and apparently ctrl-tab, meta-tab, and alt- tab. Does anyone know if we can use ctrl-shift-tab? ;-)
Comment 56•24 years ago
|
||
Oops, sorry, you're right. This bug as originally reported is the exact *opposite* of bug 2083. Bug 2083 is complaining that Tab doesn't take you to the next form element, whereas this bug is complaining that it does. So currently this bug is either WORKSFORME or WONTFIX (depending on your point of view), while bug 2083 remains to be fixed.
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: DUPLICATE → ---
Comment 57•24 years ago
|
||
updating summary; I don't think we need to release note this bug for RTM Saari--are you the right owner for this bug?
Keywords: pp,
relnoteRTM
Summary: In TEXTAREA: navigate = Tab/Shift+Tab; enter tab char. = ??? → keybinding needed to enter /t (tab) in multiline textfield (textarea)
Comment 58•24 years ago
|
||
I still think that the right fix for this problem is to provide an ``escape'' from a textarea that launches your favorite text editor in a new window. That editor of course lets you enter tabs by just using the Tab key, and also does all the other fancy stuff you need. See bug 13474 (or bug 38839 that I filed as a dup) for the relevant RFE. Any reason why this is not the way to go?
Comment 59•24 years ago
|
||
Brade, I've been ignoring this bug for the time being. I was really waiting for everyone to work out what they feel the correct thing is, I don't know. So I'm probably not the right owner given that you've all thought about this far more than I have. You want it?
Comment 60•24 years ago
|
||
Personally (as a Windows user), I've never wanted to use a tab in a textarea and I have never seen any site that would expect one. But in the web app I'm developing, having the tab key move forward makes moving through the querying that much easier. If I was merrily tabbing through one line text fields and select boxes etc I would never remember to suddenly press ctrl+tab at the textarea. If the standard textarea behaviour is different on different OS's, it's probably fair enough to make the behaviour for Mozilla different as well. The standard for windows does seem to make tab leave the textarea
Comment 61•24 years ago
|
||
I rely on [tab] entering literal-tab daily. Editing WikiWiki pages (and email-over-CGI, for that matter) really does need literal-tab support. (WikiWiki pages use tabs to control list indentation etc.etc.) One suggestion I read above that perhaps hasn't received too much in the way of discussion: what about some kind of modal interface? The suggestion that the whole TEXTAREA receive an outline-border (and [tab] moves to next-form-field) until, say, [enter] was pressed, at which point "edit-mode" is in effect and the caret appears, with, say, [esc] returning you to the outline-border "navigation-mode" is the one I was thinking of. Yes, it's modal, but don't hold that against it :-) With suitable visual/auditory/other feedback I believe it could be viable. Or a keystroke to fire up an external editor...? Either way: I *need* literal-tabs. (As do all other WikiWikiUsers.)
Comment 62•24 years ago
|
||
The following may be a good visual indication that the user is in "modal" mode (as opposed to "navigation" mode where [tab] moves to the next field): - a new window is created, titled "Edit Textarea", containing only the textarea, located at the same position where the original textarea appears in the page - the textarea on the page itself is disabled for the time the "Edit Textarea" window is up (to avoid confusion in case the user moves on of the windows and the "original" textarea becomes visible) This approach would integrate well with the "keystroke to launch an external editor" solution: The built-in "Edit Textarea" window would be just one of the available "external" editors. (See bug 13474 and bug 38839 for the RFE.)
Comment 63•23 years ago
|
||
Why has this bug still not been fixed since it was opened well over a year ago and mozilla 0.9 *STILL* can't enter tab characters in <textarea>s ? Can someone up the priority of this so it actually gets fixed instead of being a very pretty, very academic, and completely pointless log of user interface guidelines resulting in a poor UI?
Comment 64•23 years ago
|
||
The reason this bug has not been fixed yet is that there has been no decision on what keybinding should be used to enter a tab character. When we have consensus, this bug will get fixed. How about accel-shift-t?
Comment 65•23 years ago
|
||
I just went back and reread this entire bug. Wow, we really tried everything, didn't we? :) I think we've already decided that tab should always tab to the next field, whether in a single or multiline textfield. So, the discussion (as I see it) has moved to: what UI method would we like to implement to insert a real \t? There's a few options I can think of. 1) floating windoid with button to insert \t. Bad because it takes up screen real estate, wastes time because it must be displayed/hidden by the user when they need it. 2) A button along the edge of the browser window that would add a \t to any field. Better, but not perfect since a rather large mouse move has to be made. This would suck if you had to add lots of them. 3) A button along the edge of the browser that would turn on "edit" mode, which would change tabbing behavior in multiline text areas. The user would simply click the button again to go back to the normal tab=move to the next field behavior. I like this one the best, because it really offers the best of both worlds. 4) A UI element along the edge of the TEXTEDIT itself. This element would only show up on multiline text areas, and if it was small I think there'd be little worry of accidentally hitting it. Better, since there would be a small mouse movement to insert a \t, but not perfect. 5) Some keypress that could be standardized on all platforms. It doesn't look like there is one. Maybe ctrl-t instead of ctrl-tab? Not very intuitive, but we could do something like this if we listed it as a menu item too. Then the user has some obvious way of discovery. 6) A menu item. Once again, lots of mouse/button movement just to add a keyboard character. 7) Leave it to the web designer. This is bad because then it'll be different on every page you visit. 8) Have an option to fire up an entire new editing window. This seems like a "big" answer to what should be a small problem. Also makes the page very modal, in that editing the text area must be completed before you're allowed to change other UI widgets in the page containing the TEXTEDIT. One interesting thing to consider: since IE can't add \t to multiline text fields, a good implementation of this feature could actually get Moz used by some set of the population who require this feature. If we choose any of the above, then we can safely change this bug to an RFE. However, it's an RFE that needs to be implemented before 1.0 ships, because once we've set a precedent that Moz can't insert \t in text fields, web page designers will be forced to work around this problem, and we probably won't get another chance to implement this and know that designers will depend on it. - Adam
Comment 66•23 years ago
|
||
Your list of solutions looks good, Adam; however, I'd just like to point out that your solution 8 has a "strong" and a "weak" form - for the strong form, of course, you would fire up a new edit window, but for the weak form you needn't fire up a completely new window - you could simply (ahem) have a (dare I say it?) vi-like modal interface to the textarea, where something like [enter] makes the caret appear, and [esc] or click-outside-the-textarea returns you to "navigation mode"... so it's not necessarily as modal as you imply it might be :-) Of course, "somewhat modal" is very like "slightly pregnant", so your point might well hold despite my personal preference for option 8 :-)
Comment 67•23 years ago
|
||
Lake said:
> Ctrl+t is possible for Browser and for Composer but not for Mail at the
> moment.
Where exactly in Mail do we need to enter tab characters in multiline text
fields in this way? This is a browser-only forms issue, surely. Or are you
talking about HTML mail?
Regardless, the 99% case here is web forms in Navigator, for which ^T is free,
and reasonably obvious. Let's implement that, on the basis that 99% of a loaf is
better than no bread.
Gerv
Comment 68•23 years ago
|
||
Mail has this big edit box where people type messages. Editor has this big box where people type in web pages (or javascript, or text files). Aaron: I think it's fair for us to reserve accel-t for inserting a tab. Let's figure out what to relocate editor's current accel-t to.
Comment 69•23 years ago
|
||
Inserting a "tab" doesn't really make much sense in an html document. I think the only other place where users *might* want to insert a tab character is in plaintext mail compose. I'm tempted to make that a separate bug...
Comment 70•23 years ago
|
||
Please oh please don't make Accel+T insert a Tab. Accel+Shift+T maybe, or Ctrl+Alt+Tab, which is what's listed for this feature in www.mozilla.org/projects/ui/accessibility/mozkeylist.html
Comment 71•23 years ago
|
||
> Inserting a "tab" doesn't really make much sense in an html document.
Maybe not, but entering formatted text in a textarea makes sense. And in the
Linux version of Netscape 4.x you can press tab to achive this using tab.
foo bar baz blabla
blubb this is just
a table of words
I won't ever use Ctrl-t or some other cryptic key for this as long as it's not a
keybinding used by other popular text editors.
That's why my preference is option 8): Switch a text-area to edit mode with
Ctrl-Esc or something, and pop up a window that contains only the textarea, as a
visual indication for this edit mode. It's a clean solution that points into the
right direction for future development: Support for external editors. Of course,
a simple implementation does not need have this "big" feature yet.
Comment 72•23 years ago
|
||
Tony,
>vi-like modal interface to the
>textarea, where something like
>[enter] makes
>the caret appear, and [esc] or click
>outside-the-textarea returns you to
>"navigation mode"
This won't work, because it has already been agreed upon that tab always moves
from field to field. The powers that be don't want to force the user to "click
outside the TEXTEDIT" to go back to edit mode; they want to know that any time a
user hits tab, they always move, whatever kind of field they happen to be in.
I'm also not much for option 8. Good UI design calls for the least modality
possible. Sticking a big text box in someone's face, and forcing them to deal
with it to continue editing the form, is really bad.
This is why I like option 3. There is already a precedent for this kind of
behavior: look at the online/offline icon at the edge of the browser window. A
user may need to access this icon to go online to view web pages, if someone
accidentally clicked it previously. In the same vein, a toggle button at the
border of the browser window could toggle "Edit Mode" on or off, and there could
be a menu item in the Edit menu as well. This button/menu item would change the
behavior when the caret is in a TEXTEDIT: the tab key always moves to the next
field when Edit mode is off. When Edit mode is on, tab always moves to the next
field EXCEPT in multiline text areas, in which case tabs are inserted. Clicking
the button again turns off edit mode, and takes you back to default behavior.
IMO, this is the best solution. It doesn't require the user to learn a new
keypress, and it still allows for desired behavior in either circumstance.
My alternative to this is option 5. If we can agree on a xp keypress, this would
probably be less time consuming to implement, and would likely give us a method
of inserting a \t in the 1.0 timeframe. There's also nothing barring us from
option 3 in the future.
- Adam
Comment 73•23 years ago
|
||
Adam: I agree with you, option three is not so bad. I hadn't thought about it properly before. (It's kind of "modal" in a less vi-like way, of course :-) ). It would be especially nice if Moz remembered your setting for this button across sessions... somehow. <shrug> Option three means you have a clear visual indicator that you are in "netscape 4 tabbing" mode, ie. [tab] means insert-literal-tab. That's cool with me, since it offers the possibility of *having* a "netscape 4 tabbing" mode, which up until now I thought had been ruled out (because of overloading [tab]). And yes, option 5 in the meantime is also a good idea. As Gervase says, "99% of a loaf..."
Comment 74•23 years ago
|
||
> 8) Have an option to fire up an entire new editing window. This seems like a
> "big" answer to what should be a small problem.
Isn't it an even "bigger" answer to have a new, permanently visible UI element
for this? Isn't this as bad as a pref?
Is inserting literal tabs really the _only_ functionality you are missing from
the built-in editor for textareas? What if a textarea is too small for editing
long texts? What about loading a local file, and assembling a longer text using
parts from other texts? Will these (and more) be implemented in the future,
maybe with an additional UI element for every new function? Or are you simply
drawing the line somewhere and say: the builtin-editor is good quick solution,
but when a user really wants to edit a longer text, she should use her favourite
text editor that is much better at this anyway?
If it's the latter, then mozilla needs to support usage of external editors for
textareas anyway. And the tab-insertion problem is only one of the small things
fixed by it.
Comment 75•23 years ago
|
||
I prefer use of an external editor as well. I think there are lots of other times, besides inserting tabs, that users may want a different editor. For example, they might want to fire up a WYIWYG HTML editor when posting a comment to a forum.
Comment 76•23 years ago
|
||
I think the external editor comments miss the point that people don't necessarily want to have to go to an external editor *just* to be able to do what they've been happily doing for ages in Netscape. Having an option to use an external editor would be neat but is overkill if you are forced to use an external editor to enter tabs. Just find a key for it *or* at least let the user decide (as a preference or by loading key bindings etc.etc.) that he/she wants key foo to insert a tab in a textarea. This way you please everyone (yes it is really possible!) because they can change it themselves. This is possible right?
Comment 77•23 years ago
|
||
Having an option to launch an "external" editor for a textarea does not necessarily mean that there can't be other means to enter tabs in a textarea. If a special key-combo for entering tabs is there in the "internal" editor, people can use it, although I doubt that it would help much. My assumption is that in a typical scenario you'll almost never want to enter only a single tab into a textarea. Instead, let's say you'll typically enter several tabs in the same text, maybe five or more. Let's assume for now that Ctrl-Alt-Tab is the special key-combo for tabs. People who use this would this would type: some text Ctrl-Alt-Tab some text Ctrl-Alt-Tab some text Ctrl-Alt-Tab some text Ctrl-Alt-Tab some text Ctrl-Alt-Tab some text This is certainly possible, though not too convenient IMO. My point is that when you are editing a longer text, you are essentially switching to a different task than filling out a form in a web page. Your main context changes. You aren't focused on the web site any more, but on composing your text. When you are finished, then you continue to interact with the web page. (Of course it would be nice and useful to be able to scroll the page while you are in "edit mode" for a textarea, but I think that's a separate issue outside the scope of this bug.) Let's now assume we have support for external editors, and a "builtin" substitute for external editors (e.g. in situations where mozilla is the only app available on the system, or if the user has explicitly chosen to use that). What you would do then is Ctrl-Esc (to launch an additional window for "edit mode") some text Tab some text Tab some text Tab some text Tab some text Tab some text Ctrl-Return (or some other key combo to copy the text to the original textarea and close the window) I'd find this more convenient, definitely. Now I don't mind if you have that cryptic key combo for tabs in the default mode, like Ctrl-Alt-Tab or whatever. This can happily live together with the "external editor" feature. Just accept that a cryptic key combo is not a solution for editing long texts. As a short-term solution, maybe even for 0.9.1, a cryptic key combo is probably a good thing. Just don't claim that this is a complete solution to the Tab problem. About the other alternative: Have the user configure their keybindings. This approach has its own advantages and disadvantages. But even then I can't see a reason why the user has to configure that Tab really means Tab, so I wouldn't consider that a complete solution either.
Comment 78•23 years ago
|
||
It _may_ make sense to have a global configuration option for keybindings: [x] Emulate IE [ ] Emulate Netscape 4.x on Windows [ ] Emulate Netscape 4.x on Linux [ ] ... more if necessary [ ] Use Mozilla's own new keybindings But I'm not sure if this is implementable, since it's pretty much the opposite approach of the current attempt to find a single set of keybindings for everyone.
Comment 79•23 years ago
|
||
A while back Adam Masri wrote:
> 5) Some keypress that could be standardized on all platforms. It doesn't look
> like there is one. Maybe ctrl-t instead of ctrl-tab? Not very intuitive, but
> we could do something like this if we listed it as a menu item too. Then the
> user has some obvious way of discovery.
And this is virtually the solution I'm advocating except in order to keep
everyone happy I'm trying to say that you should let the user bind it to
whatever she/he wants.
That way TAB can tab between items in a form (which is useful) and whatever
keystroke the user wants to insert a tab can do so.
External editors will spawn another command presumably?
Editing in notepad, vi or emacs sounds a bit of overkill to me and personally I
think it's less convenient to have to spawn one.
But make it a preference as in "use external editor [/usr/bin/vim____v] for
textareas" if you want.
Comment 80•23 years ago
|
||
Andreas,
>My assumption is that in a typical
>scenario you'll almost never want to
>enter only a single tab into a
>textarea.
I believe your assumption is wrong. You should go back and reread this entire
bug. I believe that behavior is explicitly requested by multiple people.
Giving the user the ability to fire up an external editor is nifty, especially
if you're an emacs user. Anybody who says the ideal editor is vi, well, I've got
some swamp land in Florida I'd like you to have a look at... In any case, I'd
say the 90% case of people who would use this feature are power users who are
highly efficient at using their preferred external editor. In the Mac world (and
likely to most non-power users in the Windows world) this behavior would throw a
highly modal user environment in front of the user. IMO, most Mac users would
never make use of this feature, and would be confused by it. Power users might,
if they were editing a large document.
I would suggest that the idea of adding an external editor is an excellent RFE,
that should be logged under a separate bug. This bug explicitly discusses how to
get Mozilla to insert a \t in a TEXTEDIT using a built-in method of the Mozilla
interface.
The problem I have with Simon's idea of allowing the user to change the
keybinding mainly has to do with the UI. The power of Netscape originally was
the ability to walk up to ANY computer running Netscape 1, and do something on
the web with it, even if you didn't know that platform's UI completely. I'd like
to know that I could walk up to virtually any platform, and use the knowledge
I've learned previously. To me, that means coming up with a consistent use of
control-t, if that's our preferred keypress. This goes back to someone actually
Making A Decision (TM).
For expediency, I'd like to see control-t implemented, if it was xp. There is a
good chance that we could actually see that ship installed at launch. As long as
the ability is there in 1.0, then we can count on users being able to do this.
We can always go back and work on better methods later. Comments?
- Adam
Comment 81•23 years ago
|
||
Adam, I read the whole bug again, and I could not find a single reference to a situation where, while editing a textarea, you'd want to enter a tab only _once_. Given a textarea, there are two cases: - either you don't want to have any tabs in there, then there is no problem - or you want to insert tabs in _several_ places while editing your comment If you can think of a case where you edit a textarea and you only need to insert a tab _once_ for this textarea, please describe the case or give a more precise reference. Otherwise I'll stand by my assumption and claim that "Tabs always come in groups". The RFE for external editor support is already logged as bug 13474 / bug 38839. And no, I don't propose to "only" support external editors for inserting tabs. Instead, the "default" editor could very well be a built-in editor implementation that behaves exactly like a textarea, with the only exception of inserting a literal tab when the tab key is pressed. This built-in editor would pop up immediately when you request it, so you wouldn't lose much time for inserting tabs. I don't know about modality problems. Anyway. Let me try to re-summarize the "realistic" options, given that I should not need to use the mouse for each and every single tab over and over again (this rules out options 1, 2 and 4, and allows option 6 (Menu Item) only in combination with option 5 (some cryptic key binding). Option 7 (leave it to the web designer) is bad indeed. So the remaining options are: 3) an "edit mode" with a permanently visible toggle element in the UI 5) [+6)] a key binding [and a menu item] 8) a key combo to escape into "edit mode" for the currently focused textarea only, with a new window or some other clear visual indication of edit mode Plus, the other options ("make it a pref"): P1) make the behaviour of Tab a pref P2) make the complete set of keybindings a pref (e.g. "Nav for Linux" mode) Pgeneric) make all keybindings changable individually Nearly none of these options excludes the others. I think option 3) would be good as well. But isn't it just a boolean pref (option P1) together with a permanently visible UI toggle?
Comment 82•23 years ago
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Andreas, Adam, I read the whole bug again, and I could not find a single reference to a situation where, while editing a textarea, you'd want to enter a tab only _once_. There, you just got one. Indents. (For those wondering, I typed this into an external wp (TextEdit on MacOS X) and pasted it into the TEXTEDIT in this submission form. If Andreas' comment was one line, then I'd have only needed a single tab. Seriously, let's see what you and I do agree on. Do you agree that having some method of inserting a \t would be useful in Mozilla 1.0? And do you agree that in order for that to occur, we need to agree on the most expeditious method of implementing that feature? - Adam
Comment 83•23 years ago
|
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I am typing this on Windows Netscape 4.7 and I am surpised that I can't enter a tab in a text edit. I am usually on Solaris or Linux when I do this type of editting. I think that Andreas' idea for a global keybinding option is a good one. This would allow the typical user to quickly configure the browser to work how they want it to work. However, I think it should be customizable beyond this so that I could do, for example, default to Mozilla keybindings but change <TAB> so that it will enter a tab only in a multi-line text field and tab to the next field in every other case. I don't like any ideas that require me to click on some widget with a mouse to insert a tab because that requires me to take my hands of the keyboard. An aside: What happens if you cut and paste some text that includes tabs? Is it the same on every platform?
Comment 84•23 years ago
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> If Andreas' comment was one line, then I'd have only needed a single tab. True. However it's quite unlikely that you quote only a single line using indentation. Usually there are more, in your example there are five. > some method of inserting a \t would be useful in Mozilla 1.0? Yes, definitely. But on the other hand I think the keybinding for inserting a \t should be the "Tab" key and nothing else, at least for the "real" solution. Anything else would be odd, and if I were forced to choose, I would rather provide alternative keybindings for "going to the next item" and "going to the previous item" (e.g. some Modifier-CursorUp/CursorDown, if they weren't use by the system itself) than to use a cryptic keybinding for inserting a \t. Of course, this is my subjective view, and not representing the majority of all users, but the fact that the long discussion in this bug still has not reached consensus on a suitable substitute key binding may indicate that there isn't any good one at all. I appreciate the attempt to find a unique, cross-platform set of keybindings, but in this case I really prefer the Linux (or non-Windows?) solution, and I expect at least some non-visually-impaired Nav4/Linux users will agree. > we need to agree on the most expeditious method of implementing that feature? Not necessarily. If there is to be _a_ solution in the next Netscape 6.x release, then we indeed need to agree on something quickly. I don't think it is realistic to have the "real" solution in the next Netscape release, especially it's clear that the "escape into edit mode" solution cannot be done in time. So a cryptic key binding may be good as a short-term fix, but for mozilla 1.0 or mozilla 1.1 or something like that, I'd really like to see a better solution. As long as nobody claims the problem "FIXED" before I can use the "Tab" key to enter tabs like I could in Nav4, I don't really care what the actual key combo is. (Of course it may make sense to use a new bug for the "real" solution, as this one has become quite quite a long discussion log.)
Comment 85•23 years ago
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Well, another month has passed, and we still can't make up our minds on this issue. Andreas, > >some method of inserting a \t would be useful in Mozilla 1.0? >Yes, definitely. But on the other hand I think the >keybinding for inserting a \t should be the "Tab" key and >nothing else, at least for the "real" solution. Gee, well that's useful. Unfortunately, as has been explained again and again, you will NEVER get that functionality. TAB has been reserved for moving between fields. No more discussion on this bug will yield any fruitful results. Once again, I ask Netscape engineering to check out the following list of possible options: 1) floating windoid with button to insert \t. Bad because it takes up screen real estate, wastes time because it must be displayed/hidden by the user when they need it. 2) A button along the edge of the browser window that would add a \t to any field. Better, but not perfect since a rather large mouse move has to be made. This would suck if you had to add lots of them. 3) A button along the edge of the browser that would turn on "edit" mode, which would change tabbing behavior in multiline text areas. The user would simply click the button again to go back to the normal tab=move to the next field behavior. I like this one the best, because it really offers the best of both worlds. 4) A UI element along the edge of the TEXTEDIT itself. This element would only show up on multiline text areas, and if it was small I think there'd be little worry of accidentally hitting it. Better, since there would be a small mouse movement to insert a \t, but not perfect. 5) Some keypress that could be standardized on all platforms. It looks like ctrl-t could be used throughout. I believe someone said it is currently used in Mail? 6) A menu item. Once again, lots of mouse/button movement just to add a keyboard character. 7) Leave it to the web designer. This is bad because then it'll be different on every page you visit. 8) Have an option to fire up an entire new editing window. This seems like a "big" answer to what should be a small problem. Also makes the page very modal, in that editing the text area must be completed before you're allowed to change other UI widgets in the page containing the TEXTEDIT. For expediency, I ask you to seriously consider option 5. We could have this feature in place before 1.0 ships. If the keybinding was modifiable, that would appease most of the dissenters here. - Adam
Comment 86•23 years ago
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> you will NEVER get that functionality.
short-term, no. long-term, I'm pretty sure that I'll get it. The "alternate
editor" approach simply has too many benefits.
I don't think I have ever opposed to option 5) [or 3)] as a short-term temporary
fix. I just strongly oppose to considering it a complete, real fix.
Comment 87•23 years ago
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If someone here (Andreas Franke? others?) finds it desirable to have an editor to edit textareas, a separate bug should be filed on that issue. I would consider this bug fixed if there is *any* mechanism for a user to input a tab character. If accel-T is available in the browser, we should grab it for inserting tabs (if Aaron L agrees to put it in his spec). If you can't enter a tab in mail compose because that keybinding doesn't work there, is that really a problem or not?
Comment 88•23 years ago
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>If accel-T is available in the browser, we >should grab it for inserting tabs (if >Aaron L agrees to put it in his spec). Accel? Do you mean control? There is no "accel" key on a Mac... We have command (usually reserved for activating menu items), option (usually reserved [by itself] for entering modified characters, such as a tilde-n, umlats, etc), and control. >If you can't enter a tab in mail compose >because that keybinding doesn't work >there, is that really a problem or not? I would think that while we're doing this, the same key should do the same thing across the interface (mail & news, composer, and browser). I don't think we want the user to remember multiple methods of doing the same thing across the interface. According to Lake (earlier in this bug), ctrl-t is currently used on some platforms to get mail. Is there any chance of changing this? - Adam
Comment 89•23 years ago
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accel is the shorthand used to describe the modifier key used for commands (Command on Macintosh; Control on Windows; Alt or Control on Linux depending on your preference settings) I agree about the desire to unify keybindings across all the components and all the OS. I'm simply asking if it can be good enough for just navigator or not. If the answer is no, then this bug can (probably will?) stay Future. :-/ I don't know about the likelihood of changing the keybinding in Mail; you may need to e-mail jglick@netscape.com and ask her.
Comment 90•23 years ago
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personally i think we can grab accel-t. there's no need to get mail while you're composing a message <period>. If someone wants to get mail, they can probably click on the mailbox, or switch to another window and use accel-t. --the arguement below can be ignored-- Actually, for mail assuming we aren't too demanding, i'd be willing to accept <tab> for inserting tabs. and leave it inconsistent w/ the rest of the suite. Here's the argument for tab: you can use shift tab to get to any field you want. There are no fields after the mail compose field. There is very little reason you would go from the edit field to the address field. It's 4xp. mpt has argued that the components of our suite should be treated as seperate applications. Hopefully on macos the mail windows aren't expected to behave like browser windows (which would mean having browser menus - like bookmarks). Browsing is inherently different from writing email. In browsing you need to navigate up and down a page, even selecting random objects in between. In composing email you only need to write the email. In the rare event that you need to change the first field of the window, you would probably use accel-l (assuming we are consistent w/ browser - yes that goes against the vein of my argument but ...), in all other events you would just use shift-tab. -- And now back to flaming everyone :) <rant> aaron provided his annoying url http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ui/accessibility/mozkeylist.html and said that ctrl-t (accel-t whatever) was not available. We have talked about escapes and modality, both here and in other bugs. So here are two useless suggestions which everyone will ignore (that's an order?). 1. scrolllock toggles tab behavior for edit boxes. This probably makes some sense for a few reasons, but i'm not going to try to persuade anyone. Here's how it would work. I tab into an edit field, and press the scroll lock key. this enables me to enter tabs at random. This makes me very happy. When I finish entering my complete message I press the scroll-lock key. Now a tab will take me out of the edit field. 2. Escape key to exit manual input mode. Current uses of escape: stops page load. stops image load. stops animation. None of those uses will be common while a user is entering a form. Here's how it would work. I tab into an edit field. Tab inserts tabs :-) I'm happy. When I need to leave the field, I press <escape> because there's some logic to pressing <escape>. (I'm not going to spend my time thoroughly explaining it but you're editing and you want to _escape_.) Mozilla now puts a highlight or something around the textarea and shows that i can't enter text anymore (this is probably done by a gray select mask or something), if I need to enter more text, I press <enter> and the textarea becomes usable again. While the text area is not usable, if I press tab, mozilla moves focus to the next element. This use of escape/enter pairs is described by me in some other bug, but it was a long time ago and aaron wasn't interested in it. That's ok because aaron doesn't care about this bug except as an obstructionist. </rant> Conclusions: when people want to enter tabs/formatted text they want to enter _lots_ of tabs and formatted text. this means that ctrl-t while nice in limited usage will suck for the real users. It's not impossible, because I was using ctrl-v to insert tabs while I used this edit field (ctrl-v doesn't usually insert tabs, i had to cut a tab from nc4composer into my clipboard ...), but it isn't comfortable. The proposals I've offered in my rant only require two keystrokes. and result in a need for only a single key while entering tab formatted text. This is arguably just as good as any other proposal made here. From aaron's rather annoying page: Escape key: Browser Composer Mail panes Widget Behavior Stop loading Nothing Nothing Cancel dialog Stop animation Ah, that would have been easier w/ a tab key. Scrolllock doesn't appear on the page aaron mentioned. from another page, http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ui/accessibility/mozkeyintro.html No Ctrl+Alt combinations. Good I'm glad we settled that one. My 2 mac keyboards (5 years old?) have f14 scroll lock. Macintosh Keyboard Differences Not all Macintosh keyboards are the same. For example, older macs may not have any function keys at all, newer Macs have F1-F12, very few have F13-F15 (F13-F15 are usually labelled Print Screen, Break etc on PCs). When function keys are present, Mac OS allow users to define their actions (macros). For these reasons we want to avoid the only key binding for a feature being on a function key. If the feature is important or common, it must have an alternative means of activation. ^This basically means my scrolllock proposal won't work too well on macos. one approach would be to use ctrl-t as an alternative binding for the scrolllock key. My mac keyboard has a scrolllock indicator and I think most new mac keyboards do too. It's true that imac keyboards have less keys, but I think that ctrl-t to activate scrolllock _if_ there is no scroll lock key on the keyboard (i can't remember) would be tolerable. Oh, as always if you ever want to use an external editor, it's really easy. run it, type whatever in the world you want, use whatever means your OS provides to copy, and then paste it into your edit box. This is probably a good thing to do in general, especially w/ mozilla (or communicator) since they might crash and eat your lovely composition. There should be nothing stopping this. I'm tempted to file a bug just to relnote this wonderful piece of advice.
Comment 91•23 years ago
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>I agree about the desire to unify keybindings
>across all the components and all
>the OS. I'm simply asking if it can be good
>enough for just navigator or not.
Let's go for it. I'd rather have it in with 1.0, and make it better or change
its method of activation later, than not to have it at all.
All I ask is that a menu item be listed, with the accel-t command listed in the
menu. (Perhaps in Edit.) That way, the user has an obvious method of discovery.
If we do this, then this bug can finally be closed (thank goodness), and the
other requested behaviors can be listed as new RFE bugs for the future.
- Adam
Comment 92•23 years ago
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> If someone here finds it desirable to have an editor to edit textareas, a > separate bug should be filed on that issue. Maybe I repeat myself, but the RFE for external editor support is already logged as bug 13474 / bug 38839. timeless: I like the scroll-lock idea. See also my comments from 2000-05-04 17:42 and 2000-05-04 21:51: > Actually, KDE uses the "Scroll Lock" key to swich on/off this predefined > behaviour of Ctrl-Tab and Alt-Tab (and maybe other keys). [...] > The user should always know whether this ``edit mode'' is active > or not, so maybe one could use the "Scroll Lock" key for this (there is an LED > associated with it). > As far as I can see, this would not violate the decision that has been made. > What would be the problems with this approach? Are there any major platforms > that do not have this key? Are there any problems with the detection of the > current state of this key? Would this cause any major usability problems? I don't remember if there were any arguments against this...
Comment 93•23 years ago
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Andreas, I don't remember if there were any arguments against this... The only argument is one of expediency, as has already been pointed out. The fact of the matter is, I too want a way of doing some kind of field lock so that multiple tabs could be entered. But this is 1.0. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to work. Please file an RFE for your other requested behaviors. If we can get the single fastest to implement method complete, then we can close this bug (finally). - Adam
Comment 94•23 years ago
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Scroll lock might be used to activate panning (the equivalent of a mouse wheel click). See bug 63712.
Comment 95•23 years ago
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I like the scroll lock idea. If scroll lock is on, then it works the old way (tabs advance in every field except for TEXTAREA). If scroll lock is off it works the new, Mozilla, way (tabs advance in every field).
Comment 96•23 years ago
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I can imagine a user pressing Tab, and not being able to navigate wondering what was up. Turns out scroll lock is on by default on their system, or maybe they hit it by accident. Trouble is, there's nothing to tell them why tab isn't working the way it usually does.
Comment 97•23 years ago
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You know, if you were using arrows, Alt-Arrow for example, instead of tab to navigate then this whole tab discussion could be moot.
Comment 98•23 years ago
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Mail is using Accel+T for Get New Mail and Accel+Shift+T for Get All New Mail (multiple accounts). Getting new mail is a common action so it should have a simple accelerator. I don't believe there are any single letter+accel combinations not being used currently (to which it could be switched). Sorry if this was already mentioned, but is accel+Tab available for this? Or Accel+Shift+T, or Ctrl+Alt+Tab, as mentioned by Aaron?
Comment 99•23 years ago
|
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Accel-T? What are Accel-M or Accel-G being used for? Accel-T doesn't seem intuitive to me.
Comment 101•23 years ago
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jglick: i still don't see why anyone is likely to check their mail from a compose window. accel-2;accel-t should always work.
Comment 102•23 years ago
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>jglick: i still don't see why anyone is likely to check their mail from a
>compose window. accel-2;accel-t should always work.
I think of Mail Compose not as a separate entity, but as a sub window, a method
to do a particular task, associated with the Mail application as a whole. For
the sake of consistency, I think its good when the whole application uses the
same accelerators consistency. I agree it may be uncommon for someone to want
to retrieve mail while composing an email, but I think its potentially confusing
that an accelerator do one thing when composing an email and another thing when
not composing an email, all the while, still within the mail application. Just
my opinion.
Comment 103•23 years ago
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Timeless's Scroll Lock idea would probably work very well for the small segment of the population who would be comfortable using the vi text editor. For everyone else, even those who had no need to enter tabs in the first place, it would be rather disastrous. (`Damn, Mozilla's frozen up on me *again*! And I'd nearly finished writing that message, too. I'm getting sick of this ...')
Comment 104•23 years ago
|
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I've used Netscape/Linux for a long time, and I'd like to start using Mozilla/Linux, but this is a critical issue holding me back. I use Wikis for collaboration and Wikis usually require tabs for formating. It seems crazy to me that Mozilla is ignoring this whole class of applications just so it can mimic another web browsers behavior (from the comments above, I am guessing that IE/Windows uses tab to jump to the next widget). By making the tab key special instead of entering at tab character Mozilla is making an arbitrary restriction on what I can type in an edit box. To make things worse, I can't even cut and paste a tab into the edit box. Most applications make keybinding configurable. Doing so here would solve the problem since there will obviously be no agreement on the issue. As more applications get web interfaces, this problem will get worse. The edit box needs to be a 'real editor' -- with the tab key -- to support wikis and other applications.
Comment 105•23 years ago
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I don't much care what happens in textarea boxes in the browser. But I need to get a tab when I hit the tab key in the mail composer. Whatever you do, don't change that.
Comment 106•23 years ago
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||
That's just plaintext mail composer, of course, correct?
Comment 107•23 years ago
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This bug is a major usability problem for me when "editing a patch as comment" in mozilla with the new attachment tracker in bugzilla. I often hit the tab key and have to find that my cursor is gone (because it has gone to the next item, the "Undo Edit As Comment" button). I think I will have to fire up a sane editor (emacs) manually, cut & paste the content from the textarea into the editor, and cut & past it back when I'm done. Congratulations.
Comment 108•23 years ago
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||
Comment 109•23 years ago
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Re: usability concerns. I think timeless is correct in his suggestion for access keys (either using scroll lock or defaulting to edit mode, and using escape to exit from this). However a number of people have pointed out that the modal nature of the scroll lock choice (1). Similarly, choice (2) is not entirely intuitive in its choice of escape as the exit key. Could I suggest that since this is a modal choice, the edit box essentially reflect this modal decision through a user interface change? The most intuitive user interface change would be to display tab bar above the multi-line edit box, with a close button at the far right hand side (ie top- right hand corner of the multi-line edit box) when in the multi-line edit field in tab-stop mode. This would look like the following: =======v=======v=======v=======v=======v=======v=======v=======v=======v==[x] |The text I am currently editting... | | And I can see the tab stops. | | | | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This addresses the problem with novice users not being able to exit out of the tab editting mode. (They can click the close button, in addition to using Escape). Furthermore it makes it clear when you have scroll lock depressed (You can see the toolbar). As for defaults, I would suggest the following: 1. Default to edit mode for the first scroll-able multi-line edit box only. 2. Upon exitting the edit box by pressing escape, clicking the close button or clicking elsewhere in the page, display a dialog with the following text: --- Mozilla provides Quick Edit to assist composition in multi-line edit boxes. When using Quick Edit, the tab key inserts a tab and page up/page down scrolls the multi-line edit box. When not using Quick Edit, the tab key tabs to the next form element, and page up/page down scrolls the page. You can invoke the Quick Edit feature in any multi-line edit box by pressing the Scroll Lock key. Start the Quick Edit feature? (*) Always ( ) In scrollable multi-line edit boxes ( ) Only with the Scroll Lock key [ ] Use an external editor instead [Choose] [x] Do not display this dialog box again --- 3. Use the scroll lock key to invoke/remove the tool bar (Quick Edit), and also affect page-up/page-down semantics elsewhere in the page (bug 27771). This way we turn a bug into a feature :)
Comment 110•23 years ago
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Just my tuppence worth...please ignore if it's a stupid idea...but can't we make the decision to have the textarea (or textfield for that matter) include tabs upto the designer of the form? Seems to me something like : <input type=text tab=yes> or whatever is the correct html... Max.
Comment 111•22 years ago
|
||
*** Bug 109763 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 112•22 years ago
|
||
I was surprised to see this issue still not resolved. Using the user documentation as a guide, the shortcut keys to move between form elements are specified here: http://www.mozilla.org/docs/end-user/moz_shortcuts.html#forms According to this, to move between form items is TAB and SHIFT+TAB. Using CTRL-TAB to insert a tab (/t) makes logical sense. Similar key bindings exist to move within a textarea using CTRL-HOME and CTRL-END. This document is quite recent (May 2002) and there are parallels for Mac users to replace the CTRL key with the COMMAND key.
Comment 113•22 years ago
|
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Control-tab is already being used; it is not available for this purpose.
Comment 114•22 years ago
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I understand that CTRL-TAB is being used to put focus in the location bar. However you can still access it using the TAB/Shift-TAB keys. There is no method to insert a tab. Also, for usability one would expect to use the TAB key (in some form) to insert a tab in a textarea. Is it impossible (outside the scope) to remove the current key binding and implement CTRL-TAB as a method to insert a tab (/t)?
Comment 115•21 years ago
|
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*** Bug 215512 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 116•21 years ago
|
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This is a big problem for me, as I need to edit some wikis a work arround is to copy a tab and paste it... but I first have to find a tab to copy! (normally easy on wiki's with tabs.. but creating a new page sucks I see there is a patch... but I've never need instructions on how to actually implement a patch! anyway, as I recall this is standard behavior on IE 5 and 6 and it used to work on mozilla... I don't care if there is a "control-tab" or "shift-tab" or whatnot... I tried them all and no tab appeard. another option is to have an insert menu... tools-->insert tab or something like that
Comment 117•20 years ago
|
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Any idea when this bug will be closed? In Mozilla 1.7rc1 if I hit <Ctrl>+<Alt>+<Tab> nothing happen. This combination of keys can be used to insert TABs in a textarea.
Comment 118•20 years ago
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This is quite a problem if you have to edit a Wiki... can't we simply have TAB acting as a normal \t in textareas, while it moves focus in other widgets? This bug seems to have been opened for quite a lot of time... I asked for the 1.8a4+aviary1.0 blocking flags since I feel this is an important bug for accessibility. Feel free to deny them if it's not so important after all, but I guess this should soon be fixed anyway: Wikis and forums are more and more used on the Web. For example, in PhpBB/anyForum, if you use the monospace/code tag, you probably would like to use tabulations. I know there are some comments that state that "this bug will never be fixed, just open another text editor and cut&paste", but that was 2001 and things are different now. So please consider fixing it. All the keybindings with TAB involved are used by my wm (KDE), so i believe the easy way to do this is to let TAB = \t in textareas.
Flags: blocking1.8a4?
Flags: blocking-aviary1.0?
Updated•20 years ago
|
Flags: blocking1.8a4? → blocking1.8a4-
Comment 119•20 years ago
|
||
would need to have a working patch for this to be considered for aviary 1.0... aaron, any ideas for a better owner for this bug?
Flags: blocking-aviary1.0? → blocking-aviary1.0-
Comment 120•20 years ago
|
||
I'll take it, but I don't know when I'll get to it.
Assignee: saari → aaronleventhal
Status: REOPENED → NEW
QA Contact: bugzilla
Comment 121•19 years ago
|
||
I wrote a simple Firefox extension for inserting tab characters in textarea fields. You can check it out at http://tabinta.mozdev.org/ Balint
Comment 122•17 years ago
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Thanks Balint... now when will it be incorporated into firefox proper? My wiki editing has been suffering.. (I kinda would have switched over to konqueror.. except it doesn't have web developer) Or.. Is this fixed with an about:config ? eitherway, we need to be able to enter tabs!
Comment 123•17 years ago
|
||
We need a final UI decision on this bug from Mike Beltzner.
Updated•17 years ago
|
Summary: keybinding needed to enter /t (tab) in multiline textfield (textarea) → keybinding needed to enter \t (tab) in multiline textfield (textarea)
Comment 125•15 years ago
|
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Mass un-assigning bugs assigned to Aaron.
Assignee: aaronleventhal → nobody
Updated•15 years ago
|
QA Contact: keyboard.navigation
Assignee | ||
Updated•5 years ago
|
Component: Keyboard: Navigation → User events and focus handling
Updated•2 years ago
|
Severity: normal → S3
Updated•1 month ago
|
Severity: S3 → --
Type: defect → enhancement
Priority: P3 → --
Comment 126•1 month ago
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||
In HTMLEditor
, we have a Tab
key handler which is enabled if nsIEditor::eEditorAllowInteraction
flag is set to the editor. So, technically, this can be fixed easy. However, once it's enabled, Tab
key navigation is disabled which is a really serious issue and the other browsers do not have a way to insert CHARACTER TABULATION
s without paste. So, making it available even with a modifier could cause a web-compat issue. There is another potential issue. A lot of web apps must not assume that CHARACTER TABULATION
s may be inserted into the <textarea>
. So, such data might causes unexpected rendering result when users request to show the data.
Severity: -- → S4
Component: DOM: UI Events & Focus Handling → DOM: Editor
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Description
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