Closed Bug 1568360 Opened 5 years ago Closed 5 years ago

Table rows should not have excessively-long names (e.g. the content of an entire section/article)

Categories

(Core :: Disability Access APIs, defect, P2)

Product:
Core
Component:
Disability Access APIs
Type:
defect

Tracking

()

Status:
VERIFIED FIXED
Milestone:
mozilla70
Tracking Flags:
Tracking Status
firefox70 --- verified

People

(Reporter: jdiggs, Assigned: MarcoZ, Mentored)

References

(Blocks 2 open bugs)

Details

(Whiteboard: [lang=c++])

Attachments

(1 file)

Bug 1568360 - Don't calculate the accessible names for table or grid rows unless they have an explicit ARIA role, r=Jamie
47 bytes, text/x-phabricator-request
Details | Review

Steps to reproduce:

  1. Load one of the following pages:
    a. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20499467
    b. http://tiflocomp.ru/
  2. Use an accessibility inspector (e.g. Accerciser) to locate and examine the accessible name of table rows

Expected results: There would be no table rows whose name is the entire section/article.

Actual results: There are table rows whose name appears to be an entire section/article's worth of content. I'll paste some examples as comments so that they can be collapsed.

Impact: This makes the name worthless (imho). If Gecko is calculating giant names which are functionally worthless, perhaps it could be saving those cycles??

Here's the accessible name / label of a single table row from tiflocomp.ru:

Разделы ГлавнаяО сайтеНовостиДокументацияБытовая техникаФайлыПодкастыГостеваяФорумОбратная связь Наши сайты Компьютерные технологииПрограммы экранного доступа«Говорящий» LinuxКомпьютерные игры RSS-ленты Общая лента новостей«Пульс вспомогательных технологий»Новости порталаНовости вспомогательных технологий для MS WindowsНовости вспомогательных технологий для GNU/Linux Социальные сети страница портала на TwitterСтраница «Тифлокомп» на FacebookСтраница «Тифлокомп» ВКонтакте «Тифлокомп» Конвенция о правах инвалидов (ратифицирована федеральным законом РФ от 03.05.2012 N 46-ФЗ). Статья 9. Доступность  1. Чтобы наделить инвалидов возможностью вести независимый образ жизни и всесторонне участвовать во всех аспектах жизни, государства-участники принимают надлежащие меры для обеспечения инвалидам доступа наравне с другими к физическому окружению, к транспорту, к информации и связи, включая информационно-коммуникационные технологии и системы, а также к другим объектам и услугам, открытым или предоставляемым для населения, как в городских, так и в сельских районах. Эти меры, которые включают выявление и устранение препятствий и барьеров, мешающих доступности, должны распространяться, в частности: a) на здания, дороги, транспорт и другие внутренние и внешние объекты, включая школы, жилые дома, медицинские учреждения и рабочие места; b) на информационные, коммуникационные и другие службы, включая электронные службы и экстренные службы. 2. Государства-участники принимают также надлежащие меры к тому, чтобы: a) разрабатывать минимальные стандарты и руководящие ориентиры, предусматривающие доступность объектов и услуг, открытых или предоставляемых для населения, вводить их в действие и следить за их соблюдением; b) обеспечивать, чтобы частные предприятия, которые предлагают объекты и услуги, открытые или предоставляемые для населения, учитывали все аспекты доступности для инвалидов; c) организовывать для всех вовлеченных сторон инструктаж по проблемам доступности, с которыми сталкиваются инвалиды; d) оснащать здания и другие объекты, открытые для населения, знаками, выполненными азбукой Брайля и в легкочитаемой и понятной форме; e) предоставлять различные виды услуг помощников и посредников, в том числе проводников, чтецов и профессиональных сурдопереводчиков, для облегчения доступности зданий и других объектов, открытых для населения; f) развивать другие надлежащие формы оказания инвалидам помощи и поддержки, обеспечивающие им доступ к информации; g) поощрять доступ инвалидов к новым информационно-коммуникационным технологиям и системам, включая Интернет; h) поощрять проектирование, разработку, производство и распространение изначально доступных информационно-коммуникационных технологий и систем, так чтобы доступность этих технологий и систем достигалась при минимальных затратах. Добро пожаловать на главную страницу портала «Компьютерные технологии для незрячих и слабовидящих». Здесь представлены различные по объему, уровню сложности и способу изложения публикации, связанные общей тематикой: какие современные технические средства могут помочь незрячим и слабовидящим и что следует делать, чтобы техника и программы работали так, как нужно пользователю. Наши материалы рассказывают о программных и аппаратных средствах, благодаря которым незрячий и слабовидящий пользователь может через речевой или тактильный интерфейс получить доступ к большинству популярных приложений информационно-компьютерных систем и устройств и применять их в своей повседневной деятельности. Многое из того, о чем идет речь в публикациях, проверено на практике либо авторами публикаций, либо авторами этого сайта. Следовательно, большинство из предлагаемых здесь рекомендаций, советов, инструкций незрячий и слабовидящий пользователь может выполнить самостоятельно. Следует, однако, учитывать, что успех или неудача в работе с современной техникой во многом определяются уровнем знаний и опыта самого пользователя, поэтому в случае затруднений не стесняйтесь обращаться за советом к специалистам. Общая лента новостей Вышел Accessible-Coconut 18.04.06 Некоммерческая организация Cocofrix, созданная для решения проблем доступа к компьютерным технологиям лиц с сенсорными ограничениями, анонсировала выпуск обновлённой версии дистрибутива Accessible-Coconut 18.04.06 - бесплатной операционной системы на основе Gnu / Linux и приложений с открытым исходным кодом, адаптированных для потребностей лиц с нарушениями зрения. Дата: 14-07-2019 Читать дальше...Вышел Tarch 2019.06.22 Стал доступен для загрузки обновлённый образ Tarch - дистрибутива на базе Arch Linux с рядом модификаций, которые добавляют компоненты, обеспечивающие доступность системы для пользователей с нарушениями зрения. Tarch является форком другого специализированного дистрибутива Talking Arch, чьё развитие было приостановлено в 2017 году. Дата: 25-06-2019 Читать дальше...Вышел Chrome 75 с улучшениями специальных возможностей Корпорация Google выпустила новую версию своего браузера Chrome 75 для различных операционных систем. Помимо общих нововведений версия 75 содержит целый ряд существенных доработок, относящихся к функциональности специальных возможностей. Дата: 21-06-2019 Читать дальше...Июньское обновление JAWS 2019 Ниже приведён список изменений, внесённых в JAWS 2019 после апрельского обновления 2019 года и аккумулированных в JAWS 2019.1906.10. Основной акцент разработчики делают на улучшенной поддержке чтения документов Word на брайлевском дисплее, поддержке текстового редактора Notepad++, возможности читать математические выражения в Kindle Books и поддержке эмуляторов терминала PuTTY и SecureCRT... Дата: 13-06-2019 Читать дальше...Улучшения специальных возможностей в Apple MacOS Catalina, iPadOS и iOS 13 В начале июня Apple сообщила некоторые подробности о новых и улучшенных функциях специальных возможностей, которые этой осенью появятся в MacOS Catalina, iOS 13 и iPadOS. Далее приводится краткий обзор этих новшеств... Дата: 11-06-2019 Читать дальше...Аудиокурс «MAC для начинающих» Аудиокурс подготовлен и разработан для слепых и слабовидящих людей, которые хотят освоить работу в операционной системе MAC OS X. Дата: 05-06-2019 Читать дальше...Весеннее обновление Windows 10 и специальные возможности Недавно для всех пользователей стало доступно обновление Windows 10 Spring 2019, которое предоставляет множество новых возможностей и улучшений. Далее перечислены основные улучшения в работе Экранного Диктора, а также некоторые улучшения общего характера... Дата: 28-05-2019 Читать дальше...Вышел Firefox 67 с улучшенной клавиатурной навигацией Представлен релиз web-браузера Firefox 67, в котором, помимо прочих нововведений, реализованы доработки навигации по графическому интерфейсу, позволяющие выполнять ряд операций исключительно с клавиатуры без помощи мыши.e Дата: 22-05-2019 Читать дальше...Очередной опрос от NV Access NV Access приглашает пользователей программы экранного доступа NVDA принять участие в опросе, который поможет разработчикам улучшить взаимодействие NVDA с пользователем. Дата: 16-05-2019 Читать дальше...Завтра День всеобщей осведомлённости об универсальном доступе Завтра, 16 мая, пройдёт День всеобщей осведомлённости об универсальном доступе (англ. Global Accessibility Awareness Day – GAAD), который отмечается ежегодно каждый третий четверг мая. Его цель... Дата: 15-05-2019 Читать дальше...RSS лентаВсе новости Выпуски подкастов Доступность 21 век! : Наши в Берлине Каждый год Департамент труда и социальной защиты населения г. Москвы направляет в Германию делегацию специалистов для обмена опытом в сфере обеспечения доступности окружающей инфраструктуры для лиц с инвалидностью (с ограничениями жизнедеятельности, со стойкими расстройствами функций организма и так далее — ненужное зачеркнуть)... Дата: 22.02.2019 Далее...Доступность 21 век! : Как самому построить сайт Темы, так или иначе связанные с разработкой и сопровождением web-сайтов, часто и с интересом обсуждаются в рассылках незрячих и слабовидящих пользователей компьютеров. Вот и наши замечательные ведущие решили не оставаться в стороне и позвали на серьёзный мужской разговор двух матёрых сайтостроителей... Дата: 29.01.2019 Далее...Доступность 21 век! : Мобильный банк или в мире цифровых денег Деньги и цифры во все времена были тесно связаны друг с другом, но в наши дни даже та тонкая бумажная грань, что отделяла одно от другого, исчезла практически полностью... И как в таком мире жить незрячему человеку? Это не проблема, если рука уверенно сжимает безотказный кольт... Дата: 01.12.2018 Далее...Доступность 21 век! : OrCam: Революция в области Искусственного Зрения? Однажды живой OrCam попал в руки к нашим ведущим... Результатом чего и стал очередной искромётный выпуск, в котором они делятся впечатлениями от этого чуда вспомогательных технологий и личным опытом его использования... Дата: 06.10.2018 Далее...Доступность 21 век! : Apple Watch — Возможности и впечатления «А ещё они бьют...» — сказал один весёлый персонаж в своем подкасте о больших напольных часах. Однако о том, как бьют Apple Watch, ведущие нашего искромётного подкаста поговорят в другой раз, потому что в этом выпуске Александр Зеленов на личном примере покажет и расскажет о возможностях Apple Watch помочь или не помочь вполне незрячему человеку... Дата: 13.09.2018 Далее...Все подкасты Дискуссионный лист Для помощи в сложных ситуациях, возникающих при работе с компьютером, создан дискуссионный лист (электронная почтовая конференция): Информационные технологии для незрячих и слабовидящих . Подписавшись на лист, вы будете по электронной почте получать вопросы, ответы и новости, публикуемые другими подписчиками. Кроме того, вы сами сможете задавать вопросы и отвечать на сообщения участников конференции. Для подписки укажите свой электронный почтовый адрес и нажмите кнопку «Подписаться». Однако это не единственная почтовая конференция, поддерживаемая администрацией портала. В соответствии с тематиками разделов Tiflocomp организованы следующие дискуссионные листы (в скобках приводится электронный адрес для подписки): • «Решение бытовых проблем незрячих и слабовидящих» ( home.help.sphome-sub@subscribe.ru ). • «Компьютерные игры для незрячих и слабовидящих» ( industry.comp.tiflocomp.games-sub@subscribe.ru ). • «Особое программирование: лист для незрячих программистов» ( industry.comp.tiflocomp.programming-sub@subscribe.ru ). Наши сайты • Компьютерные технологии для незрячих и слабовидящих Этот сайт, кроме того что является «фасадом» всего проекта, включает в себя еще несколько разделов, среди которых: Документация и Бытовая техника . Первый из упомянутых разделов содержит общую информацию, касающуюся компьютерных программ и оборудования; во втором разделе располагаются материалы, относящиеся к техническим устройствам, которые, как правило, не нуждаются в подключении к компьютеру, но могут быть полезны для незрячих и слабовидящих. • Программы экранного доступа для MS Windows На этом сайте представлены материалы о программах экранного доступа, об их назначении и способах работы с ними. Большинство публикаций посвящено программе JAWS For Windows ™, потому что это - наиболее популярная программа экранного доступа в России. Подробная документация, описания синтезаторов речи, скрипты для программы JAWS, ссылки на тематические ресурсы и многое другое. • Компьютерные игры для незрячих и слабовидящих На этом сайте рассказывается о мире компьютерных игр, разработанных специально без графического интерфейса.Таких игр уже немало: "стрелялки", стратегии, логические игры и многое другое. Каталог и описания к играм, обсуждение, советы бывалых и секретные материалы ищите на этом сайте ... • Говорящий Linux - Сайт посвящен специальным возможностям различных дистрибутивов GNU/Linux, которые позволяют людям, полностью или частично утратившим зрение, успешно работать с этой операционной системой. Наши партнеры Список сайтов партнеров , поддержавших наш проект и разместивших у себя ссылку на наш сайт.Присоединяйтесь! Приглашаем авторов Сайт «Компьютерные технологии для незрячих и слабовидящих» является некоммерческим проектом, поэтому если вы готовы предоставить для публикации ваши авторские материалы на условиях, оговоренных в данном соглашении , то присоединяйтесь без долгих размышлений. Все дополнительные условия публикации вы можете обсудить с Администрацией сайта. Если вы нашли в интернете близкие по тематике ресурсы или публикации, сведения о которых отсутствуют на нашем сайте, то, пожалуйста, сообщите об этом нам . В зависимости от воли правообладателя найденного ресурса или публикации и от нашего желания, на сайте появится либо сама публикация, либо ссылка на нее или ресурс. Valid HTML 4.0 Transitional Valid CSS! Valid RSS Rambler's Top100 Рейтинг@Mail.ru LiveInternet: показано число просмотров и посетителей за 24 часа

And here is the accessible name / label of a single table row from YCombinator.com:

'upvote Rechargeable vs. Alkaline Batteries (nytimes.com)63 points by bookofjoe 1 day ago | hide | past | web | favorite | 89\xa0comments upvote nrclark 1 day ago [-] Electronics that constantly draw low amounts of power — such as some wall clocks, headlamps, or bike lights — work better with disposable alkaline batteries. Alkalines release power consistently right up until they die, whereas a rechargeable battery’s voltage gets gradually lower and lower over time, slowing down the device or cutting off power prematurely. This is very wrong, and makes me doubt the article's correctness. Every NiMH discharge curve I've ever seen is much flatter than a typical alkaline curve. NiMH batteries drop down to around 1.25V pretty quick when discharging, but they stay around 1.25-1.15V for almost the entire discharge cycle. Alkaline batteries are almost dead by the time they get down to 1.2V. So the reason why NiMHs drop out early on some devices isn't because they're out of charge, or because alkaline batteries have a flatter discharge curve (they don't). It's because some devices stop working at around a 1.2V cell voltage, regardless of how much charge is left in the battery. reply upvote zokier 1 day ago [-] 1.2V cut-off is ridiculously high even for alkalines. Looking at the charts from e.g. Energizer datasheets[1], it seems like going form 1.2V cut-off to something more reasonable like 0.8V gives you whopping extra 50% service life. Alkalines are definitely not "almost dead" at 1.2V. [1] http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/en91.pdfreply upvote nrclark 1 day ago [-] that's a pretty interesting datasheet! If you assume a constant-power load like a low-dropout boost regulator, it looks like it depends a lot on the current draw. On that graph, you're right that the 200mA draw goes quite a bit farther after 1.2V. The 100mA draw is around 65-75% done at 1.2V. Presumably that exends to lower-power draws too. Thanks for linking that, it was neat. TIL reply upvote zokier 1 day ago [-] > that's a pretty interesting datasheet! If you assume a constant-power load like a low-dropout boost regulator, it looks like it depends a lot on the current draw. One of my unrealized project ideas was to create a battery life estimation calculator, something you could feed in battery configuration, some power supply details (efficiency, cutoff), and consumption figures and get an estimate of battery life. The log-log charts are not all that easy to read and have only limited number of curves available. reply upvote bookofjoe 1 day ago [-] https://www.google.com/search?q=battery+life+calculator&oq=b...reply upvote zokier 1 day ago [-] All of the first-page results do just dumb nominal capacity divided by current calculation, which is pretty useless. This Microchip one seems bit more clever, but it is limited to Microchip microcontrollers only and is a separate installable application, so that is no good either: https://www.microchip.com/SWLibraryWeb/product.aspx?product=...reply upvote squarefoot 1 day ago [-] It is also possible that the article mistook the cell discharge curve with their self discharge. Self discharge happens due to imperfect chemistry regardless of what is connected to the battery: you charge a cell at 100% then put it in a drawer, and after some time it falls below any usable current by itself. Usually it takes months but I had very poor cells self discharging in less than two weeks, although they could indeed deliver the advertised current in shorter times. As you pointed out, NiMH cells have a much flatter curve than alkaline ones, but they also self discharge quicker than alkalines, so for example in very low power devices such as remote controls or clocks where one would expect long times between recharges, they aren't the best option because their self discharge time is much shorter than their use time. In my kitchen I have an exception: an old electromechanical wall clock in which I swapped the alkaline cell with a NiMH one, but both use and self discharge are dealt with by a small solar panel connected in parallel with the cell, which in this case works as a voltage stabilizer too. So far about 4 years passed without changing or recharging anything, and it gets direct sunlight for a very short time every day. reply upvote q_queue 1 day ago [-] All of it is wrong, and it's frustrating that things like this get promulgated with an authoritative voice. It seems to happen especially often about battery technology, for some reason, or else I only notice it more because I know a little bit about battery technology. My other not-favorite thing, tangentially, is how marketing for anything that stores electrical energy has gravitated to "mAH" as the sole unit. I know it's because the uninformed consumer will compare based on the bare number, but every time I see "15000 milliamp hours" I cringe. Off to drive 7 megamicromiles to work. reply upvote Monroe13 18 hours ago [-] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effectreply upvote sixstringtheory 1 day ago [-] Slightly related, and maybe you could provide more knowledge here: common knowledge for safety critical devices, such as avalanche beacons, is to only use disposable alkaline batteries. The reasoning I've heard is that due to the flat power curve of non-alkaline batteries, if you put a nearly-dead one in the beacon and check the battery level, it will read as fuller than it really is, and you run the risk of having it die on you during a normal usage period (maybe 12 hours). With an alkaline battery, when it's close to done, it will more accurately register as such on the device.reply upvote Gibbon1 23 hours ago [-] Alkaline batteries start off at 1.5-1.6 volts and the voltage follows the charge reasonably linearly down to about 1.0 volts. So that's correct, alkaline batteries at 1.5V per cell are 'good' full stop. Where a rechargeable at 1.2V might or might not be. Who really knows if it charged all the way[1][2]. [1] Gallant is careful to put his nmh batteries in the the charger each night. Goofus got high and forgot. In the morning Goofus swapped his dead ones for the ones in Gallants charger. [2] Power went out between 11pm and 6am while everyone was asleep. reply upvote tjohns 22 hours ago [-] I have one of the few avalanche beacons that have separate modes for alkaline and NiMH batteries. (Specifically, the Barryvox Pulse.) My understanding is that "alkaline mode" measures the voltage to determine charge level, as one would expect. The "NiMH mode" instead uses a timer-based approach to estimate charge level due to the different discharge curve. reply upvote jhayward 22 hours ago [-] That seems like sound reasoning to me. I've spent many many hours staring at manufacturer provided curves, and countless days running my own and would absolutely use that as a rule.reply upvote zelon88 1 day ago [-] Partially true, but you're measuring the cells wrong. Alkaline batteries typically start around 1.5v and are advertised to be around 1.5v. A fully charged NiMH cell will be advertised at 1.2v but at peak charge will actually be around 1.4-1.5v. Even without discharging the NiMH cell at all the peak will wear off within a few hours. Furthermore, NiMH charges can go stale, trapping electrons inside the cells forever. These trapped electrons occupy cell capacity that can no longer be filled with viable electrons. Thus, a 2,000mah cell that has been left with 1,000mah worth of stale charge will likely only ever charge to 1,000mah for the rest of its life. If you measure the curve from the delta peak of a NiMH battery the curve is way more extreme than any alkaline. reply upvote p1mrx 1 day ago [-] For any 2xAA or 2xAAA device without a center tap, you can use a 3.2 volt LiFePO₄ cell with a "0 volt" spacer. I use LiFePO₄ to run my rear bike light and a wireless thermometer, both 2xAAA devices. The total capacity is reduced because half the space is wasted, but that's not a big deal if you're only recharging a few times a year. I haven't tried this with remote controls, since the batteries last basically forever in those. Another option is to use 3.7 volt lithium ion with an LDO regulator, but I haven't tried that yet. reply upvote extesy 1 day ago [-] LDOs introduce their own inefficiency into the process so it's usually not worth the trouble.reply upvote bdamm 1 day ago [-] Fun hack! Do you have a line on cheap LiFPO4 or is it just to get a longer run time between swaps?reply upvote p1mrx 18 hours ago [-] I prefer not to use disposable batteries for environmental reasons. But with NiMH, a light designed for 3V will be dim, and an LCD will have low contrast. In that sense, the effective run time is zero, so NiMH is a non-starter. I found some AAA-size LiFePO₄ cells, spacers, and a charger on AliExpress a few years ago. reply upvote entee 1 day ago [-] From personal experience I couldn't get my wall clock (cheap Ikea one) to run on an eneloop, even after I think I charged it, without the second hand going all weird and failing. Works just fine on a disposable, what am I doing wrong? This article may be incorrect but the conclusion matches my experience.reply upvote askvictor 1 day ago [-] Rechargeable NiMH cells have a voltage of 1.2v, and stay pretty much at that voltage until they're flat. Alkaline (and other disposable) cells start at 1.5v (actually a little higher), and gradually diminish in voltage over they're life. If the appliance requires more that 1.2v, then a NiMH cell will simply work. In any case, clocks tend to draw a very small amount of power over a longer time, which doesn't tend to suit NiMH cells due to a higher rate of self discharge (eneloops and other similar 'ready to use' rechargeables are much better though) reply upvote coin 1 day ago [-] I thought that NiMH will lose about 1% per day, thus making them a poor choice for standby devices.reply upvote pavon 1 day ago [-] No, after 5 years eneloop AA batteries still retain ~70% of their charge. I have been using them in remotes, bathroom scales, flashlights, and the like for over a decade and they usually last a couple years before I need to recharge them. The only place I have Alkalines any more is my emergency box, and those tend to self-corrode almost as quickly the NiMH self-discharge. I think the name brands (Energizer, Duracell) have similar performance these days as well. reply upvote felixfurtak 1 day ago [-] True for older style NiMH, but the newer 'pre-charged' types like Eneloop have very low self-dischargereply upvote rini17 1 day ago [-] They should probably have said instead: When NiMH discharges completely in such device, it's prone to failure.reply upvote KerrickStaley 1 day ago [-] I don't think this sentence from the article is correct: "Alkalines release power consistently right up until they die, whereas a rechargeable battery’s voltage gets gradually lower and lower over time, slowing down the device or cutting off power prematurely." If you look at the discharge curve for an alkaline battery (for example, http://madscientisthut.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013... ), it seems more linear than for a NiMH cell ( http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7azY596Jbs8/TVHgoP3gUkI/AAAAAAAAG4... ). In other words, it's the NiMH cell that gives consistent voltage until it dies, whereas the alkaline battery will gradually lose voltage. (It's not totally clear, some other graphs of alkaline discharge curves do show more of a "knuckle", with a flat initial section and then a steep drop-off). reply upvote Johnny555 1 day ago [-] Electronics that constantly draw low amounts of power — such as some wall clocks, headlamps, or bike lights — work better with disposable alkaline batteries I use low discharge NiMH rechargables in all of my battery bike lights and they work great, they'll last for about 3 months of my usage (I run the taillights night or day), but I charge them all at the end of the month (I have 2 sets, so one set's on the bike and one set is charged and ready to swap out). I'm on the same set of Eneloops I bought 6 years ago. Every year or so I have my charger run a discharge test and they are still within about 90% of rated capacity. I'd have thrown away 24 sets of disposable batteries in that timeframe (since I keep an extra set of batteries charged, so it's a ratio of 1:12). I paid ~2.50 each for the eneloops when I bought them, so cost wise it's been a good investment, works out to around 20 cents each so far (ignoring the cost of electricity) It's getting harder to find non-rechargable bike lights, my main headlight uses a non-replacable LiIon battery. reply upvote digikata 1 day ago [-] It's a shame that so many products default to built in, non-replaceable LiIons now. For many products, it's nicer to have a replaceable rechargeable so you can pop in charged battery and go instead of having to plan for state of charge of yet another device.reply upvote Brakenshire 1 day ago [-] I suspect building them is in an environmental benefit in a lot of cases, a lot of people just buy huge packs of alkaline disposables and can't be bothered with rechargeables unless they're built in. I'd be interested to see the statistics but I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of people use disposable batteries given the opportunity.reply upvote opencl 1 day ago [-] I just don't get why replaceable standard-sized lithium ion batteries have pretty much completely failed to take off other than those 18650 flashlights and vape pens. The proprietary replaceable batteries are an improvement over non-replaceable but in anything other than cameras the replacements seem to get discontinued by the manufacturer by the time you actually need one. reply upvote cc439 22 hours ago [-] The problem with bare 18650 cells is in their chemistry. A bad charger + good cell = nasty fire and a good charger + bad cell = the same. Considering the fact that every major online retailer including Amazon has trouble policing fake cells, the liability risks are fairly extreme. If there was a way to completely block all non-UL rated products as well as those with fake UL stickers, I'd say your idea has merit. Unfortunately, the near frictionless world of online markets allows for too much counterfeit risk to enter the picture for such an idea to be workable.reply upvote fengb 1 day ago [-] Li-ion cells provides 3.6V, which makes them incompatible with traditional alkaline or NiMH. I don't think we've invented a standard for Li-ion batteries yet.reply upvote Scoundreller 1 day ago [-] I’m building a solution: integrated bike lights on my bike (various strips, etc.), with a 3S 18650 battery holder that’s supposed to let me run nearly unlimited amperage (but with protection). I’ll probably just recharge over USB, but I could swap the cells if on a longer trip. The plan might include a motorcycle horn. It will be nice to have hard-mounted lights and 1 central battery that I can stow-and-go at any time, rather the attaching and detaching everything to avoid theft. reply upvote zokier 1 day ago [-] One concern about lithium cells is safety. Shorting alkaline cells won't do much, and even nimhs are relatively benign, but lithiums can start fires or explode when mishandled. Shipping lithum cells is for that reason bit of a hurdle too.reply upvote fragmede 1 day ago [-] E-cigs and Teslas, that is.reply upvote baq 1 day ago [-] Aren’t Teslas running on 21700?reply upvote reportingsjr 1 day ago [-] Only the Model 3. Model S and X are still using something close to 18650 (although I haven't followed Tesla's batteries for the last 8 to 9 months).reply upvote Johnny555 1 day ago [-] Probably true, but if the LiIon batterypacks/modules were required to be replaceable, that would keep that benefit while reducing the waste of lights that are thrown away after the LiIon battery degrades. Though I'm not sure how much of a factor that is - I don't know how often lights are discarded because the battery life because too short versus lights are discarded because someone wanted a newer/smaller/brighter light. reply upvote askvictor 1 day ago [-] How are they using their bike lights and head lamps? Wall clocks, sure, use a constant draw. Bike lights and head lamps use a decent amount of power only when you have them switched on, which is intermittent.reply upvote justsomedood 1 day ago [-] My bike lights are very bright, so I get maybe 10 hours out of them from the AA one i had before it broke. We have a lot of Eneloop batteries so it was great to be able to just swap out the power without waiting for a recharge. My current light is also lithium and gets about 10 hours because of the brightness level, but it's a little smaller. I do miss being able to find ones that use replaceable batteries, though. reply upvote opencl 1 day ago [-] It's still super easy to find bike lights that use replaceable 18650 cells.reply upvote Scoundreller 1 day ago [-] The giant blinding headlight ones that are great for off-roading at night, yes. But most other use cases, no. reply upvote semi-extrinsic 1 day ago [-] If you get a $3 18650 flashlight off ebay with the single XM-L led, they're fairly low brightness (I'd guess 250 lumen) and can be mounted as a bike headlight with a $2 adapter.reply upvote slacka 1 day ago [-] I was expecting an informative discussion on the impact of producing/disposing/recycling Rechargeable vs Alkaline? Instead I just got, rechargeable = better. My gut tells me rechargeable is better, but only if they are properly disposed/recycled 100% of the time. We don't need more heavy metals in our air/water from rechargeables being incinerated. Any recommendations for chargers that don't require paired batteries? Some of my recent devices need batteries in 3's and 1's. reply upvote ajross 1 day ago [-] > We don't need more heavy metals in our air/water. Batteries in landfills are pretty inert. None of the heavy metal reactants in a NiMH or lithium cell[1] are ever in a liquid or dissolved state (the charge carriers are hydroxide and lithium ions respectively). One of the reasons they're so pervasive is precisely that these chemistries are safe and relatively non-toxic. Really, if you're worried about discrete cell batteries and the environment, the solution is to minimize your use of them, not to worry about recyclable vs. not. [1] Lead acid batteries are an exception, because the sulfuric acid does indeed dissolve some lead. But these really aren't the subject of the article, and in fact they're already being quite effectively recycled in practice. reply upvote slacka 1 day ago [-] Yes, I'd imagine so in properly capped and lined landfills. But those are on their way out as our landfills are filling up up[1] faster than new ones built. More and more towns are moving to incineration. [1] https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/us-landfills-are-fi...reply upvote yellingdog 1 day ago [-] I've had good luck with the Nitecore intelligent chargers. Most of those allow for independent charging including different chemistry between slots.reply upvote snowbrook 1 day ago [-] The Panasonic BQ-CC55 charger will charge from 1 to 4 cells, AA or AAA, in any combination. I've got 2 and they've worked great.reply upvote wlesieutre 1 day ago [-] For about $10 more, also see La Crosse Technology's BC700. It can do some neat things like measure the capacity that was charged or run a "refresh" cycle that repeatedly drains and charges a battery (up to 20 times) until the measured capacity stops increasing. Like the BQ-CC55, it has four independent channels that can charge either AA or AAA in any mix. You can even run different modes on each channel, like charging 1 and 2 while refreshing 3 and 4. reply upvote CaliforniaKarl 1 day ago [-] Ha! You beat me on making that recommendation. I have used a BC700 for about two years now, and am very satisfied with it. I particularly appreciate how each of the four battery slots is separate. Not only does that mean each battery can be doing something different (charging, refreshing, etc.), it also means you can remove and insert different batteries at different times. This is great when some batteries are more (or less) discharged than others. Also, worth noting that the BC700 supports NiCd and NiMH, in addition to AA and AAA. reply upvote Tomte 1 day ago [-] I've had the BC700 (or possibly one of the identical builds under a different brand name) for years, but switched to the BQ-CC55. The latter is "put in and forget". The former means fiddling with really bad buttons (because you can! Not really because you have to. But if I can manually set and micro-optimize the charging current, by God I will). I worry much less about charging nowadays. reply upvote wlesieutre 1 day ago [-] I can't say I've used the custom charging current options, but the refresh mode has rescued some batteries that (very unscientifically) did not seem to be holding much charge. IIRC the default behavior is to charge at 200 mA and discharge at 100 mA. reply upvote learnfromstory 1 day ago [-] These are great but toward the end of the charge cycle they make a lot of high-pitched sounds.reply upvote tzs 1 day ago [-] > Any recommendations for chargers that don't require paired batteries? I've had a Powerex MC-C9000 [1] that I have used for at least a decade with no problems, mostly with Eneloops. It does not require pairing. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Powerex-MH-C9000-WizardOne-Charger-An...reply upvote adrianmonk 1 day ago [-] There are a lot of chargers with separate charging circuits for every slot. I've had good luck with an Opus brand charger. The one I have allows selecting charging rates (200-1400 mA), and it has an LCD that tells you voltage, rate, status, etc. It also supports some discharge/refresh/test cycle stuff, although I don't know if the practicality of that is real. (If a battery isn't performing right, I feel like it's usually a lost cause.) reply upvote Fjolsvith 1 day ago [-] I've recharged alkaline batteries and reused them quite a bit before they turned to muck.reply upvote 120photo 1 day ago [-] Photographers will tell you that using rechargeable batteries are the way to go when it comes to using flash/speedlights. They charge up much quicker than Alkaline and they either work or do not. Alkaline charges you flash at a slower rate and will give you weaker inconsistent power when they are dying (rechargeable give you all they can or just die out).reply upvote all_blue_chucks 1 day ago [-] Disappointing. No mention of rechargable lithium batteries than are extremely popular for use in flashlights, among other things. No mention of the non-draining NiMH (eneloop) in comparison to traditional NiMH batteries. Just a reminder to use alkaline in smoke detectors, and even there it failed to distinguish between alkaline types (some last far longer than others).reply upvote spear 1 day ago [-] I think the article makes the assumption that modern NiMHs are all of the Eneloop type. I think that's fair -- it seems like almost all the NiMHs I see for sale these days are the same type. The longer Wirecutter test article it references does go into a bit more about the history of the Eneloops and all the batteries it tested are the same type (which it calls "Low Self-Discharge NiMH"). Also, despite the title, I think the article is really "rechargeable" vs. "single-use". It doesn't explicitly say that the 10-year smoke alarm batteries are alkaline. The ones I've seen are actually lithium. reply upvote Jedd 1 day ago [-] Probably not much of a coincidence, but I was researching smart chargers about twelve hours ago and ended up going for Panasonic's flagship (bc55). (As depressing as always, one bloke with a credit card can out-do any other organisation's economies of scale when importing anything into Australia.) I've re-embraced eneloops partly for cost (already covered by OP) but also because they perform better (last longer, fail less frequently) in cold weather. This bites me each winter with a bunch of residential grade irrigation computers that use 2 x AAA. Confidence / reliability also factors in - when those things die I might not notice for a couple of weeks, until some plants start to look unwell, but aggressively replacing all the alkalines every six months (they usually last 9-12 months) worries me more from the rampant waste perspective than cost. reply upvote fyfy18 1 day ago [-] Supposedly IKEA LADDA batteries are rebranded Eneloops. It's not official, but the capacity and and discharge curves are the same:https://petapixel.com/2018/02/16/eneloop-pro-20-batteries-ik...reply upvote Jedd 12 hours ago [-] That's interesting. My first thought was it's probably another of those things that IKEA sells everywhere except Australia - but happily the LADDAs are available here. Though with one small caveat - the white LADDAs evidently come out of the same Japan factory that makes almost all the other good eneloops, but the brown LADDAs are known to come out of PRC, and don't exhibit the same quality. reply upvote strictfp 1 day ago [-] Bought the IKEA charger because it was so slick and compact. Very happy with both charger and batteries, can recommend. Crazy low price as well, but to me that wasn't a factor. Charger review here: https://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Charger%20Ikea%20Ladda...reply upvote m463 1 day ago [-] Alkaline batteries are NOT good at low temperature. The most reliable power I have found are the single-use lithium batteries, especially when the temperature drops. I should also mention - use rechargeable batteries for devices you care about. If they come with batteries, usually alkaline batteries, there's a good chance they will discharge, then start leaking and either damage or destroy the device they came in. Meanwhile, rechargable batteries have much better sealing and rarely leak even if fully discharged. Small(ish) price to pay to preserve an expensive device. reply upvote post_break 1 day ago [-] I wish more products would adapt 18650 batteries. My flashlight can pump out over 2000 lumens or still very bright for a really long time. 18650 has very high density, can be charged and discharged rapidly depending on the cell, and has safety fuses. I've thrown away a bunch of rechargable AA batteries and not a single 18650.reply upvote extesy 1 day ago [-] With lumens like that you would want 28650 otherwise it wouldn't last for too long.reply upvote notJim 1 day ago [-] Is there an easy way to get rid of rechargeables once they're dead? I have a bunch of them sitting in a drawer, because it's a pain to go to the city recycle facility. I highly doubt most people go to the effort. This is the big drawback to alkaline batteries for me, since those can be thrown away in the trash.reply upvote pmoriarty 1 day ago [-] Those "dead" rechargeable batteries may have more life in them. Don't throw them away yet! If your charger won't charge the battery anymore (showing the battery as "null"), there's a way to make it charge again.[1] The technique is basically to use a paperclip to connect the positive terminals of a working and "dead" battery while they're both in the charger, only (unlike in the video) I do this with the charger unplugged from the wall socket. This only needs to be done for a few seconds for the "dead" battery to come back to life. I used to discard many rechargeable batteries that I thought were dead before I discovered this trick. Since I started doing this, I've been able to keep using my old rechargeable batteries continuously, except that after a while they seem to hold less and less charge, so eventually I do get rid of them, but I no longer do so simply because my charger tells me they're "null". [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFapDUSOgnYreply upvote sephamorr 1 day ago [-] Whatever you do, do NOT do this with lithium ion batteries. At low voltages, chemical side-reactions start to occur which result in dendrite formation which can pierce the membrane, shorting the battery: the result is fire. LiIon batteries generally have protection that permanently blow a fuse if the voltage goes below a minimum safe voltage, but raw 18650 cells often do not. The video above refers to NiMH cells. Afaik, this is safe to do for NiMH.reply upvote mikestew 1 day ago [-] I don’t know that “can be thrown away” means “should”. IIRC, “disposable” batteries still contain mercury and other nasty shite. We take our alkalines to the community recycle day thing.reply upvote virusduck 1 day ago [-] Most alkaline batteries manufactured today don't contain any mercury. Maybe since like 1996.http://www.rayovac.com/products/batteries/educate/faqs.aspxhttps://www.duracell.com/en-us/help/faq/do-your-batteries-co...https://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-max-alkaline-b...reply upvote stkdump 1 day ago [-] In Germany everyone who sells batteries has to take them back as well. I thought that was the case everywhere...? Also throwing alkalines into the trash doesn't sound right.reply upvote Scoundreller 1 day ago [-] When it comes to recycling/sorting, it’s safe to say Germany is at the top, and everyone else is some mild to severe level lower.reply upvote Symbiote 16 hours ago [-] Everywhere in the EU should do something similar, as part of the WEEE directive.reply upvote Moru 15 hours ago [-] Sweden has pretty good recycling too, most things can be sorted within walking distance in bigger towns (guess 500+ people). Many garbage rooms have spaces for batteries and fluorescent lights.reply upvote Malic 1 day ago [-] A number of big-box stores will let you properly dispose of them at the door - Best Buy and Target are two examples that come to mind.reply upvote Eric_WVGG 1 day ago [-] Staples accepts all manner of used electronics for recycling, I just brought a sack of dead scanners, LCD panels, and about four years worth of dead AA's and coin batteries.reply upvote zokier 1 day ago [-] Note that in EU alkaline batteries should not be thrown in mixed waste, so that is moot point around here.reply upvote bvinc 1 day ago [-] I use the bins right by the entrance of Lowe's and Home Depot stores. They also have bins for compact florescent bulbs.reply upvote cr0sh 1 day ago [-] I wish they had a bin for tube fluorescents - I want to change out my shop and garage lights for LED tubes, but I don't know where to get rid of my old tubes (short of waiting for a hazardous waste drive day - I always miss those).reply upvote seized 1 day ago [-] Try Ikea if there is one in your area. My local ones all have bins for tubes and CFLs. Note that I am in Vancouver BC which also has numerous recycling depots. reply upvote tasty_freeze 1 day ago [-] The public library near us accepts them. No idea how common this is, but it is worth it to check yours.reply upvote Dylan16807 1 day ago [-] > Smoke alarms that are not hard-wired into your home’s electrical system get power in one of two ways: a built-in battery designed to last up to 10 years, or a disposable 9-volt battery that you should replace once a year. No, they definitely make smoke alarms that take two AA. reply upvote seized 1 day ago [-] Or Nest Protects at six lithium non rechargable cells. But specced to last five or ten years.reply upvote ceejayoz 1 day ago [-] New York state banned the sale of smoke alarms with removable batteries earlier this year. > Starting Monday, all new or replacement smoke detectors sold in the state must either be powered by a non-removable battery good for at least 10 years or be made to be hard-wired to buildings. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Law-Bans-Smoke-Detecto...reply upvote Trias11 1 day ago [-] What about Lithium AA[A] batteries? I'd use them for critical applications (flashlight during camping/desert travel) reply upvote sixstringtheory 1 day ago [-] I asked about it in another thread higher up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20502338 In my trainings I've specifically been told not to use Lithium ion batteries in critical applications, like headlamps and beacons. reply upvote Scoundreller 1 day ago [-] Better to just switch to lithium-first gear in that kind of situation. Why buck 3.7V to 1.5V only to buck/boost it again? reply upvote tomohawk 1 day ago [-] > built-in battery designed to last up to 10 years Good luck with that. I have yet to see any of those make it past 10 weeks, let alone 10 months. And when they false alarm, you have to destroy the device to turn it off. reply upvote RickJWagner 21 hours ago [-] Great article, encourages me to go buy another battery recharger. We have an XBox in the house, and 3 enthusiastic users. Lots of batteries.... reply'

I notice Chrome doesn't calculate the name from contents for rows at all unless they are focusable. I think that's a nice pragmatic solution.

Unfortunately, the ARIA spec says role="row" should calculate name from contents, and HTML AAM says HTML tr should be mapped to ARIA role row. So, I want to be pragmatic here, but doing so will violate the spec. :(

Any thoughts, Joanie?

Blocks: tablea11y
Priority: -- → P3

For the record and tying all the strings together: Your statement about the ARIA spec is true and fair. So I opened an issue against it: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1022. But as soon as the Working Group reaches consensus on a solution, it would be awesome if these freakish names were removed from their respective Gecko rows. :) :)

Re: HTML AAM's tr naming goes:

  • aria-label or aria-labelledby
  • title
  • no accessible name

That said, I commented on an issue last night / updated it after reading this to re-review naming.

Ah. Thanks. Clearly I didn't read that far. That said, it seems confusing to me that we say we map HTML tr to ARIA role row, then later say that the HTML tr name calculation is different to ARIA role row. I guess the role mapping table was intended to be interpreted as only referring to platform role/state mappings, not to other characteristics of the role? If we're going to do that, why bother mapping to ARIA roles at all?

Noted and will work on making it more clear that HTML elements have their own naming algorithms that may be similar, but not always, to ARIA role equivalents.

For example, potentially tr as noted by this issue. But also role=checkbox allows name from contents, where it is not possible to provide a name to an input type=checkbox in this way in HTML.

(In reply to scottaohara from comment #7)

Noted and will work on making it more clear that HTML elements have their own naming algorithms that may be similar, but not always, to ARIA role equivalents.

Thanks. I realise this stuff is far from simple to explain. :) I think even a simple link to the relevant section on tr naming in the tr section of the mapping table would be sufficient.

Distilled STR:

  1. Open this:
    data:text/html,<table><tr><th>a</th><td>b</td></tr></table>
  2. Right click the table and select "Inspect Accessibility Properties".
  3. In the accessibility tree, select the node for the row.
  4. Look at the name in the Accessibility Properties.
    • Expected: name : ""
    • Actual: name : "a b"
  5. Open this:
    data:text/html,<table><tr role="row"><th>a</th><td>b</td></tr></table>
  6. Right click the table and select "Inspect Accessibility Properties".
  7. In the accessibility tree, select the node for the row.
  8. Look at the name in the Accessibility Properties.
    • Expected (and currently works): name : "a b"
    • This needs to be verified because the fix for 4) might break this.

We're going to need to special case this because Gecko's row role is currently declared as calculating name from subtree, which we still need for everything except HTML tr.

We can fix this by overriding NativeName in HTMLTableRowAccessible to return an empty name. We also need to override NativeName in ARIARowAccessible because HTML tables with display: block can use ARIARowAccessible. For ARIARowAccessible::NativeName, we should fall back to Accessible::NativeName if ARIA role row is present.

We also need tests similar to the above test cases, probably in accessible/tests/mochitest/name/test_general.html.

Mentor: jteh
Priority: P3 → P2
Whiteboard: [lang=c++]

Previously, we would always calculate the name for tr elements from their descendants unconditionally. Assistive technologies aren't using this information, moreover, it causes problems if the name gets too long, for example in layout tables.

We now only calculate the name if the tr element has an explicit ARIA role.

Assignee: nobody → mzehe
Status: NEW → ASSIGNED

Joanie, here's a Linux try build that no longer calculates the acc name for trs if those trs don't have an ARIA role. https://queue.taskcluster.net/v1/task/RnkRzvHNScupMoQ6skPhdg/runs/0/artifacts/public/build/target.tar.bz2

Flags: needinfo?(jdiggs)
Pushed by jteh@mozilla.com:
https://hg.mozilla.org/integration/autoland/rev/43322f9d1f33
Don't calculate the accessible names for table or grid rows unless they have an explicit ARIA role, r=Jamie

https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/43322f9d1f33

Status: ASSIGNED → RESOLVED
Closed: 5 years ago
status-firefox70: --- → fixed
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Target Milestone: --- → mozilla70
Flags: qe-verify+

Confirmed issue with 70.0a1 (2019-07-20).
Verified fix with 70.0b8 on Windows 10, macOS 10.12.6, Ubuntu 16.04.

Status: RESOLVED → VERIFIED
status-firefox70: fixed → verified
Flags: qe-verify+

already confirmed in comment 14, so clearing NI

Flags: needinfo?(jdiggs)
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