There are numerous issues to evangelize. Those issues can only be seen by owners
of Bank HaPoalim accounts who have signed up to enable Internet access to their
bank account, so the range of people who can participate in QA is limited.
The issues (after logging in):
1. The main frame is rendered correctly (ISO-8859-8 Visual), although has an
incorrect META tag specification:
<meta CONTENT="text/html" ; charset="iso-8859-8" HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type"></meta>
<meta HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-8">
2. In "Pirut yetrot be-pikdonot shikliim", the "Hatzeg" link doesn't work. It
seems to use obsolete document.layers API.
3. The menu frames have no charset specifications.
4. The menu frames seem to be delivered in UTF-8, but the Hebrew is text is laid
out visually. This is invalid (Unicode is always Logical). For some reason,
setting "View > Character Coding > Hebrew Visual (ISO-8859-8)" seems to "fix"
the Hebrew direction (until the next time we enter the site).
The bank is aware of Netscape and Mozilla but refuses to support clients who
mention the word "Linux" (since Linux is not a supported OS; they hardly found
MacOS worthy of support). The site claims to support Netscape 6.2 (and Mozilla,
according to tech suppport person), but apparently it doesn't.
Also, Netscape support isn't on the top of their priorities, as they claim 95%
of the users use Windows / IE 5.
The technical support department is not helpful, as their assumption is that
something is wrong on your side.
As of now, it is impossible to contact the technical department directly, so I'm
trying to pass them a mail through a customer support person.
Mac users have the same problems as well.
We have already a few bugs open about that bank. Anyone have a direct contact there?
Accepting- I think it will be a good idea to ue this bug as a tracking bug.
Points 3 and 4 are invalid as evangelism issues. Both are a result of a bug in
Mozilla (see bug 165609). I will look for a workaround for the site.
Anyway, a refresh of the page (click in the URL bar and press Enter, or click
Reload) makes the problem go away.
Ilya, you now have permissions to confirm and resolve bugzilla bugs.
Created attachment 109390 [details]
Screenshot of Bank HaPoalim site at login
Created attachment 109391 [details]
Site after selecting "Hebrew Visual" from View -> Character Coding
As of version 1.2, the Bank HaPoalim site doesn't display correctly even after
selecting "Hebrew Visual" from View -> Character Coding. In all the versions up
to 1.2b (including that version), selecting "Hebrew Visual" would temporarily
"fix" the problem as previously described. However, from version 1.2 and later
even that no longer works (as can be seen in the screenshots provided). I'm not
really into HTML so I can't say exactly what's going on, only that it used to
work and now it doesn't. I'm currently using version 1.3a (Build ID 2002121216)
on Mac OS X 10.2.2
Another problem: When using the Password restoration page, the fields won't accept Hebrew
text unless your Default Character Coding is set to ISO-8859-1 (yes, 1 and not 8). If it's set to
anything else (e.g. ISO-8859-8, Windows-1255), the Hebrew text would turn into question
marks. Setting the "Default Character Coding" is a common task for those who wish to
correctly view pages which lack charset specification (assuming most pages I visit are Hebrew,
I'd want to set the default to Windows-1255 instead of ISO-8859-1).
The problem lies in BankHapoalim's treatment of the Accept-Charset header which is sent
along with the submitted form, containing the user's "preferred" charset (ie. the Default
Character Coding). The site is not supposed to do any processing on it when resolving the form
values (which are, BTW, submitted correctly: I checked with livehttpheaders) -- but Bank
Hapoalim's site does.
It should be noted that BankHapoalim's support people are quite arrogant and unfriendly
towards their customers ("But it doesn't matter. We don't support Linux. The bank will make its
decision on what platforms to support based on financial considerations."). However, they do
claim to support MacOS and Windows and since this problem appears on all platforms, they
ought to fix it. It'd be nice if anyone else would care to bug them about it.
tech evang june 2003 reorg
the site serves visual hebrew to IE too.
With bug 165609 solved, we should have no more "reload to reverse menus"
weirdness. However, now the menus would always be reversed, since now we behave
exactly like IE (which is The Right Thing to do), while BankHaPoalim JS
reverses menu texts before writing them *only* for IE. So this turns into an
Also, a new bug 246700 for an existing issue: the side frames being displayed
in "Gibberish" characters sometimes. It's due to a Mozilla bug as well. The
cause is known so I expect it to be swiftly resolved.
Back to evangelising, who of you is whilling to speak to the bank as an
"Israeli representative of Mozilla"? I think that, coming as an organization
seeking for cooperation, there's a much bigger chance for this to work.
Now that bug 246700 is fixed, Bank HaPoalim's menus would *ALWAYS* display
reversed on Mozilla, unless Bank HaPoalim fixes their site.
To fix it, they'll need to edit this JS:
and replace all 'if(browserName.indexOf("Microsoft") == -1)' checks, which
choose whether to print Visual Hebrew or Logical Hebrew, with a check for
Netscape 4 only: (Mozilla behaves more like Internet Explorer does)
if ((browserName.indexOf("Netscape") != -1) && (browserVer < 5))
// use visual text
// use logical text
Again, who will take the evangelising communications?
From a conversation with BankHapoalim's support today (both the initial person
and the supervisor), they refuse to support Mozilla (even on Macintosh) except
for what they define as "trivial problems". Modifying their site is, of course,
not a trivial request.
The supervisor told me he'll forward the request in his monthly "improvement
proposals" (הצעות יעול) report.
If that's any consolation, when I said "Mozilla", they could say they don't
support Mozilla nor Netscape nor Firefox, so this means I'm not alone with the
Conforming summary to TFM item 10 at
seamonkey 1.0.6 (Gecko/20061030):
uses visual hebrew, generally looks ok.
firefox 18.104.22.168 (Gecko/20061025): same as above
firefox 22.214.171.124pre (Gecko/20061127):
text in top and right menues is displayed in reversed order. uses western (iso-8859-1) encoding. reload doesn't change anything. trying to change the encoding manually results in html code displayed where the top and right menues were. the only way i found to fix this is to reload the page. the main frame is displyed correctly.
i think we have a serious issue here, considering the market share of this bank. anyone knows what happened between 1.5 and 2.0 in firefox?
for reference, see attachment 199620 [details] from bug 312363, which includes a log of a session in the account.
Tsahi, after bug 165609 was solved (before 1.5), I thought 1.5 would bring an era when menus would always be reversed and then maybe the bank would fix them once and for all (they simply run an unnecessary 'reverse' function when the user-agent matched "navigator"). However, in 1.5 it was still possible to work around the reversed menu by reloading the page -- I don't know why, since I thought bug 165609 took care of this inconsistency.
In any case, now the inconsistency is done and we work like a sane browser. Now, it's just the site specifically mistreating "navigator".
Ilya or Tsahi, what's the latest on this bug? Is it still a problem with Firefox 2? With Firefox 3? With Minefield (Firefox trunk nightly)? With Camino?
the bank recently updated their site. if you enter an incorrect password, you are redirected to this page: https://login.bankhapoalim.co.il/cgi-bin/poalwwwc which has this thing at it's <head> section:
<Y><META CONTENT="text/html" HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" charset="windows-1255"></META></Y>
that's a new breed of html, i guess. one thing that sometimes confuses html rookies is that the charset is the value of the content property, like so:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1255">
the result is that if your default encoding is not windows-1255, you will see gibberish.
i'll try to login tomorrow and see how it works.
(In reply to comment #18)
> the bank recently updated their site. if you enter an incorrect password, you
> are redirected to this page: https://login.bankhapoalim.co.il/cgi-bin/poalwwwc
> the result is that if your default encoding is not windows-1255, you will see
Well, all Hebrew lettering looks like "gibberish" to me since I don't speak or read Hebrew ;) but I get what looks very much like a proper page layout there with UTF-8 or "autodetect" set as my default text encoding in Camino trunk and in Firefox 2 with "Universal" auto-detect set.
I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that the lack of a DOCTYPE is forcing us into quirks mode, which is probably helping out with the charset issues.
Other than the encoding thing -- which definitely sounds like a new bug, because this bug has been primarily focused on the bad browser-sniffing, at least as far as I can tell -- does the site work OK? What browser did you do your testing with?
using seamonkey 1.1.7, the account area looks ok, except for a few minor hickups, e.g. in the withdrawal account ("over vashav") area, there's a thing called Produce a GOLD Number, which i don't know what it is, but in english its NABI in the navigation sidebar, and IBAN in the section title.
the biggest problem i found, both in SM and Firefox 126.96.36.199, is the bank messages area (doal vecelular > doar nichnas). here, the first part of the title is reversed: תורגדהו עדימ > דואר נכנס instead of מידע והגדרות > דואר נכנס, and the message list is indented to 2/3rds of the screen, so you have to scroll left to see it properly.
Those problems don't seem major enough to keep this bug open, so I'm going to resolve this FIXED.
An e-mail to the bank might be helpful in convincing them to fix those last remaining issues.