Closed Bug 1817098 Opened 2 years ago Closed 8 months ago

Use "Копировать" instead of "Скопировать"

Categories

(Mozilla Localizations :: ru / Russian, defect)

Product:
Mozilla Localizations
Component:
ru / Russian
Type:
defect

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED FIXED

People

(Reporter: 08xjcec48, Assigned: valery)

References

Details

Steps to reproduce:

I don't speak Russian, but this has been requested on Mozilla Connect: https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/ideas/return-to-the-menu-in-the-russian-oldest-point/idi-p/25063 .

Return to the menu in the Russian translation of the "Копировать" items instead of the "Скопировать" that appeared in the 110 version. It's very uncomfortable and unusual - they don't say that.

If you're against reverting this term, please leave a comment on Mozilla Connect explaining why.

I'm against "копировать" in favor of "скопировать", and I can explain, why (I'm a Russian native).

This is a well-known triad of "cut-copy-paste" that commonly translates to Russian as "вы́резать-копировать-вставить".
The problem is that "вы́резать" and "вставить" are in perfective aspect, while "копировать" is in imperfective aspect.
This is a long-standing error, dating back to the days of DOS or even Soviet IT.

Consider this (https://www.russianlessons.net/grammar/verbs_aspect.php):

  • perfective aspect - вы́резать, скопировать, вставить
  • imperfective aspect - выреза́ть, копировать, вставлять

So, "скопировать" is the correct variant, and I'm very glad that this has finally been fixed.

Technical terms – especially the ones displayed by graphical interfaces – are defined by usage, and not by prescriptive grammar rules or personal pet peeves. If копировать has been used by all mainstream computer programs since the Soviet era, it is the word that Firefox should use.

Most people just want to find the usual option as fast as possible. Using a term that is different from what they expect is disorienting.

has been used by all mainstream computer programs since the Soviet era

It is "used" mainly because most programs use the standard menus for input boxes provided by the OS.

Most people just want to find the usual option as fast as possible. Using a term that is different from what they expect is disorienting.

It's not so different as to be of any noticeable significance. It's just another (and proper) form of the same verb, differing by only one letter.

Technical terms – especially the ones displayed by graphical interfaces – are defined by usage, and not by prescriptive grammar rules or personal pet peeves. If копировать has been used by all mainstream computer programs since the Soviet era, it is the word that Firefox should use.

I'm also a Russian native, and I totally agree with you.

The app must use the same basic terms as the host OS and its "ecosystem". Term копировать is used everywhere in Windows interface, in native Windows apps, in every third-party Windows app I know, in every Linux distro I know, and in Android. Term скопировать is only used on MacOS and iOS.

Term скопировать is only used on MacOS and iOS.

This is quite enough to start fixing this mistake. In such things, the main thing is to begin.

I think we should do, what OS localizers did, and use "копировать" in Firefox for Windows/Linux and "скопировать" in Firefox for MacOS.

(In reply to Alexander L. Slovesnik from comment #6)

I think we should do, what OS localizers did, and use "копировать" in Firefox for Windows/Linux and "скопировать" in Firefox for MacOS.

I'm not a fan of that option, because it makes switching between different operating systems confusing.

It can be technically done in Fluent, although it's not straightforward. But it's not possible at all if the string is in a .properties file.

I've never seen "скопировать" in Windows. After more than 20 years of "копировать" this change causes an OCD-like anxiety.)

After more than 20 years of "копировать" this change causes an OCD-like anxiety.)

Exactly the same as what people like me have experienced all these 20 years. Justice has prevailed. ;)

Could someone summarize for non Russian speakers what's the difference between the two? For example: do they mean the same thing, are they synonyms, are they used interchangeably outside of software, etc.

(In reply to Francesco Lodolo [:flod] from comment #11)

Could someone summarize for non Russian speakers what's the difference between the two? For example: do they mean the same thing, are they synonyms, are they used interchangeably outside of software, etc.
See blackdoomer's comment. It's mostly correct, except that after many years, "копировать" is de facto acceptable in perfective aspect, and synonymous with "скопировать" even colloquially.

Thunderbird 102.8.0 is also subject to the problem "Скопировать", please return "Копировать".

(In reply to AjiTae from comment #9)

I've never seen "скопировать" in Windows. After more than 20 years of "копировать" this change causes an OCD-like anxiety.)

Russian Windows translation contains a lot of nonsense, like "Audit success" → «Аудит успеха» (instead of «аудит: успешно» or «результат аудита: успех»), and almost-direct non-native translation, like «получить» instead of «скачать» in the phrases like "get this software".

Копировать instead of скопировать is clearly a mistake according to Russian language. Are you proposing reverting back to incorrect alternative?

(In reply to ValdikSS from comment #16)

Are you proposing reverting back to incorrect alternative?
Yes I do. It broke my user experience quite fiercely, I had to waste a few seconds every time I needed to copy, my eyes were looking for "K" where "C" is now. I made a dirty patch for myself so it doesn't matter much to me anymore, but I still think this unwanted and unnecessary change should be reverted.

Копировать is not incorrect. It simply means To Copy. It's absolutely appropriate in this meaning. And this has been in use for over 30 years of computing in relation to buffer, memory or clipboard in this instance.

However, prefix S has a lot of meanings. Probably over 10. Though, there are two meanings related to this issue. One meaning To Copy. Another meaning One time action. So if we use a first one it would be a tautology. Second would just just an overload. It's not necessary. Would look same as if English locale would use Copy once, instead of just Copy.

We do, however, use Скопировать, but in a meaning of imaginary action of taking a copy of something from somewhere to your or from your to someone else possession. Like a file from someone to you or from you to someone. The process of copying still would be called Копирование.

(In reply to blackdoomer from comment #1)

I'm against "копировать" in favor of "скопировать", and I can explain, why (I'm a Russian native).

This is a well-known triad of "cut-copy-paste" that commonly translates to Russian as "вы́резать-копировать-вставить".
The problem is that "вы́резать" and "вставить" are in perfective aspect, while "копировать" is in imperfective aspect.
This is a long-standing error, dating back to the days of DOS or even Soviet IT.

Consider this (https://www.russianlessons.net/grammar/verbs_aspect.php):

  • perfective aspect - вы́резать, скопировать, вставить
  • imperfective aspect - выреза́ть, копировать, вставлять

So, "скопировать" is the correct variant, and I'm very glad that this has finally been fixed.

Again, both versions are correct. Prefix S in a meaning of one-time action does make it perfective aspect, but aspect is not important in this case.

As a native Russian speaker I can say that both version are reasonably correct, while "копировать" is much more familiar and has decades of usage behind it.
While "скопировать" might sound slightly more accurate to a language purist - it is not a good reason to break UX. And yes, it breaks UX as it confuses people who are used to quickly clicking after reading first syllables. My colleagues and I have been affected by this and it is very displeasing (sure this is an anecdotal evidence, but still).

For whatever reason it's still not fixed.

(In reply to akatz from comment #20)

While "скопировать" might sound slightly more accurate to a language purist - it is not a good reason to break UX. And yes, it breaks UX as it confuses people who are used to quickly clicking after reading first syllables. My colleagues and I have been affected by this and it is very displeasing (sure this is an anecdotal evidence, but still).

It might have importance, but only in past tense - Скопировано, when you are sure that action is done. For future tense there is no more accurate usage - both are correct.

(In reply to regs from comment #21)

For whatever reason it's still not fixed.

It might have importance, but only in past tense - Скопировано, when you are sure that action is done. For future tense there is no more accurate usage - both are correct.

If you do not know Russian, this does not mean that everyone else should not know it either.

(In reply to blackdoomer from comment #22)

(In reply to regs from comment #21)

For whatever reason it's still not fixed.

It might have importance, but only in past tense - Скопировано, when you are sure that action is done. For future tense there is no more accurate usage - both are correct.

If you do not know Russian, this does not mean that everyone else should not know it either.

Please keep discussion civil and avoid personal attacks.

I upvoted. This change was pointless as both terms are technically correct, however it breaks decades-old habits and extectations for users, and also contradicts with how this action is called in basically any other app and through the whole system (both Windows and Linux distributions).

I wholeheartedly vote for the established term (Копировать).

I am a native speaker. And we don’t say that and it’s not customary to write in the menu like that.

In all my life, nowhere and never in any of the hundreds of programs have I seen "Скопировать", only "Копировать".
I don't think that hundreds and thousands of translators are wrong.
It cannot be that one person is right now and all the mastodons up to this point have been wrong.

If you have met somewhere differently, then this is due to the fact that those firms hired a novice in translating interfaces or a non-native speaker.

I used to come across when before me (yes, I am a translator) the text was translated by robots or the text was translated by those who had just started learning the language.
I don't blame these people. Life situations are different. And the manager used what was at hand.
And after, the typed text got into the database. And in view of the fact that the customer does not know the language, he accepts this database as true. And he asks for a completely different product to match his previous one.
And if the customer is Apple or something, then we have big problems and it will take a lot of effort to convince managers to accept what is used by everyone, and not in their local database.

In translation you can't just take and deviate from the established term.
This is the first fundamental rule.
Even if you think it should be different.
A person will simply turn away and will not read your book, play your game, use your software product.
It's like iron on glass.
It's... financial damage in the end. And reputational losses both for the translator who worked on the translation and for the campaign that owns the product.

Translation consists of a million factors, the ultimate goal is to create an organic, natural, understandable and natural text.
If you use only machine translation, this text will not look natural. People don’t talk like that, don’t write like that, and legal organizations don’t even write like that.
Although machine translation formally does everything right.

This is exactly this example.

You can't go against the basics. Even if you think you're right. As in life, in real living relationships.
Only here is your relationship with millions of people, history and great experience.

Now, the current translation brings a lot of pain to people.

And this applies not only to a single menu item with one word.
I have noticed this in a lot of places.
And I believe that during the translation, the bulk autocorrect button was pressed, which led to artifacts in many parts of the interface.

The peculiarity of the language also lies in the semantic background of the sentence.
In short, you can twist the meaning so that both options are true.

But the most true will be the one that does not cause rejection from your product. The one that has been an unshakable monolith for many, many years, from the beginning of the very first systems.

As programmers say:

  • If it works, don't touch it.

Please keep the conversation civil.

Also, a reminder that the translation is completely managed by volunteers. If you want to have a voice in decisions, you can become part of that community and start contributing, I'm sure they would be happy to get constructive feedback and help. Yelling and insulting is not going to make anyone change their mind.

The defect is still not fixed.
Perhaps more arguments are needed?

Ok. Here are a few more arguments.

  1. I now see a lot of Mozilla advertising, disproportionately many with the recent past.
    [I don't have access to statistics. I'll guess.]
    After six months of not solving the problem, people simply lost hope and moved on to other projects. This is a very glaring and annoying problem.
    The marketing department sees strong audience losses and is trying to solve this problem on its own.
    But it's like treating a cold with a cold compress rather than medicine.

These are real financial losses. Because of one little mistake... People, just think about it.

This mistake is bad for everyone. And to you, developers and us users.

  1. I don't like this example, but ok, I'll write it.
    Why is "Скопировать" never used in the interface.
    "Оскопить" / "Скопировать" incredibly similar in pronunciation.
    "Оскопить" means "castrate".
    You will absolutely not be happy to see this in front of you every single day. I hope everyone will agree with this.

  2. This has already been voiced.
    Each line is similar to each line and it is very difficult to find the function you need.

This is the science of ergonomics. It is taught in technical institutes and is very important for very clear and fast human-machine interaction.

  1. Examples
    On the machines you can see the “Пуск”, “Старт”, “Стоп” buttons.
    Not "Запустить"/"Пусковать", "Стартовать"/"Стартировать", "Стопировать". No.
    Absolutely definite, specific words and letters, clearly defined a very long time ago.

These specific words and figures of speech did not arise just like that; everything has a reason, confirmed by the practice and experience of real people and the science of ergonomics.

This is why “Скопировать” should be reverted back to “Копировать” wherever it is needed.

Duplicate of this bug: 1855055

I will probably return "Копировать" today or tomorrow. "Скопировать" is correct from the point of view of the Russian language. But the community does not accept this innovation. And it does not match the UI of operating systems and other software. This is the same story as with the word "functional/функционал" instead of the correct "functionality/функциональность". In fact, "функционал" has become the standard too, and linguists agree that it is necessary to recognize "функционал" in the meaning of "функциональность".

Вероятно, сегодня-завтра буду возвращать "Копировать". "Скопировать" правильно с точки зрения русского языка. Но сообщество не принимает это нововведение. И оно не соответствует UI операционных систем и другого ПО. Это та же история, что и со словом "функционал" вместо правильного "функциональность". Фактически "функционал" стало стандартом тоже и лингвисты сходятся в том, что нужно признать "функционал" в значении "функциональность".

But the community does not accept this innovation.

This issue has not attracted much attention and is in fact inactive for the last 2.5 months.

In fact, "функционал" has become the standard too, and linguists agree that it is necessary to recognize "функционал" in the meaning of "функциональность".

Please support such statements with proper references.

But the community does not accept this innovation.

This issue has not attracted much attention and is in fact inactive for the last 2.5 months.

And it does not match the UI of operating systems and other software.

macOS uses "Скопировать", as it was stated above.

In fact, "функционал" has become the standard too, and linguists agree that it is necessary to recognize "функционал" in the meaning of "функциональность".

Please support such statements with proper references.

(In reply to blackdoomer from comment #33)

But the community does not accept this innovation.

This issue has not attracted much attention and is in fact inactive for the last 2.5 months.

Yes, this bug has been inactive for a while, as have the forum branches. But since I am mainly currently engaged in localization of reference articles and the user interface into Russian, users write to me in person, considering me the author of reference articles. At the same time, there are few supporters of "скопировать". I don't see that there are many of them. Here we need to prove that there are more than half of prescriptivists. Prescriptivism is poorly accepted in IT.

Example of requests:

'Good afternoon! Are you engaged in Russian localization? Do you have the opportunity to influence the change of text in the context menus? For some time now, the "Копировать" item has been changed to "Скопировать". And now it's a little difficult to find it among 'Сохранить' this, 'Скопировать' that, etc. Thank you if you can somehow influence this'.

[I do not write messages with direct aggression about this, which also came to me]

In fact, "функционал" has become the standard too, and linguists agree that it is necessary to recognize "функционал" in the meaning of "функциональность".

Please support such statements with proper references.

You can see, for example, here:
https://gramota.ru/spravka/vopros/308170#question

(In reply to blackdoomer from comment #34)

macOS uses "Скопировать", as it was stated above.

This is not true:
https://support.apple.com/ru-ru/102553

But since I am mainly currently engaged in localization of reference articles and the user interface into Russian, users write to me in person, considering me the author of reference articles.

And this is the reason why you want to roll back a change that is already a year old. Meanwhile, we never saw here the person responsible for this, not to mention the clear initial justification for the decision made. This gives you the right to answer "no, I don’t know such a person" or simply ignore offensive and/or threatening letters. But you are simply backing down from them. Is this the current level of Mozilla technical support?..

At the same time, there are few supporters of "скопировать". I don't see that there are many of them.

Because this is certainly biased. People worry when they are not happy with something, not when everything is fine. In today's Russia this is especially noticeable, and if we are compatriots, then I think you understand me here.

Here we need to prove that there are more than half of prescriptivists.

No, we don't. Labeling is a bad way of arguing, and "a literate Russian" doesn't mean "a prescriptivist" in its derogatory sense.

Prescriptivism is poorly accepted in IT.

Which is nothing more than ordinary hypocrisy, since without prescriptivism, all the main (read: Western) literature on modern IT would be written in such an untranslatable style that only people who knew English from birth could become first-class programmers.

You can see, for example, here:
https://gramota.ru/spravka/vopros/308170#question

"Функционал" is professional slang, because even "функциональность" is, thus they're non-normative anyway. "Скопировать" is not.

This is not true:
https://support.apple.com/ru-ru/102553

This is a link to a support portal, with this article being translated from English (see https://support.apple.com/en-us/102553). If you look at the interfaces directly (you can, for example, search for screenshots using the query "macos контекстное меню"), you will see exactly "Скопировать".

(In reply to Paul from comment #27)

(In reply to regs from comment #26)

Still not fixed in 117. Why?

From my experience in corporations, I can tell why this is so.

Only a person with incredible personality power is able to say "Yes, I was wrong" and make another responsible decision.
The translator who carried out the order, as far as I can judge and see, is against changing the original text.
This means that this is an order from superiors or a manager.
Bosses and managers, by their nature, always seek to suppress the will of any worker.
A bad boss in understanding always lacks the "Retreat" option.
To retreat means to move lower in the hierarchy.
This means that the one to whom he yielded will be higher.
And we are talking about a man who is fighting for power with all his might...

You don't understand what Mozilla is. This is open source software. Localization is supported by the community. I have been localizing help and user interface for 8 years. I have never received any money for this. I only received souvenirs when it was possible. For the last time in 2019. It is impossible now because of the geopolitical situation, i.e. it is volunteering. As far as I saw in Pontoon, the change was not made everywhere. And it was originally produced by different users. This was done by the community. Yesterday in Pontoon, one of the localizers started leaving comments on one of the UI lines and I drew attention to this issue again.

Here's what's important. There must be uniformity. Before that, I had achieved uniformity according to the proposed innovation. I got everything back today. Uniformity in terminology is one of the basic principles. And for the sake of macOS, it really doesn't make much sense to change terminology for all other platforms.

(In reply to blackdoomer from comment #37)

But since I am mainly currently engaged in localization of reference articles and the user interface into Russian, users write to me in person, considering me the author of reference articles.

And this is the reason why you want to roll back a change that is already a year old. Meanwhile, we never saw here the person responsible for this, not to mention the clear initial justification for the decision made. This gives you the right to answer "no, I don’t know such a person" or simply ignore offensive and/or threatening letters. But you are simply backing down from them. Is this the current level of Mozilla technical support?..

If you go to Pontoon, then all the moves are recorded and everyone can view the history of changes if desired. And help localization.

The reasons why I did the rollback (have already done) are several:

  1. I conducted surveys on social networks. No one votes for the new option.
  2. Only macOS uses the suggested option. At the same time, Firefox is a multiplatform application and the basic principle of technical documentation and localization of product lines is uniformity of terminology.

At the same time, there are few supporters of "скопировать". I don't see that there are many of them.

Because this is certainly biased. People worry when they are not happy with something, not when everything is fine. In today's Russia this is especially noticeable, and if we are compatriots, then I think you understand me here.

I don't think this is related to "russia today". Many Russian-speaking Mozilla users are not located in Russia. A lot of Ukrainian users are Russian-speaking. We are talking about the frequency of actual translations of the term "copy". In practice, in 98% of cases, in fact, the established version is used in Russian software localizations.

Here we need to prove that there are more than half of prescriptivists.

No, we don't. Labeling is a bad way of arguing, and "a literate Russian" doesn't mean "a prescriptivist" in its derogatory sense.

The language of the user interface in the constantly evolving IT world is not literary. It's a different language. Russian Russian is very well known to me, I have been translating novels by Stephen King and Dean Koontz into Russian. The technical language differs from the literary one. The frequency of application is in the first place.

Prescriptivism is poorly accepted in IT.

Which is nothing more than ordinary hypocrisy, since without prescriptivism, all the main (read: Western) literature on modern IT would be written in such an untranslatable style that only people who knew English from birth could become first-class programmers.

Fortunately, this is not the case now.

You can see, for example, here:
https://gramota.ru/spravka/vopros/308170#question

"Функционал" is professional slang, because even "функциональность" is, thus they're non-normative anyway. "Скопировать" is not.

No, just 5 years ago, "functionality" was not the correct use of the language. The functionality was only in mathematics. I've been in IT for 25 years.

This is not true:
https://support.apple.com/ru-ru/102553

This is a link to a support portal, with this article being translated from English (see https://support.apple.com/en-us/102553). If you look at the interfaces directly (you can, for example, search for screenshots using the query "macos контекстное меню"), you will see exactly "Скопировать".

Yes, there is a new proposed option in the screenshots. But unlike Mozilla, Apple's translation is handled by professional translators :) And it turns out that they have a confusion between the support articles and the graphical interface. I.e. they did not decide themselves. All other operating systems use the classic translation option.

In the Ukrainian localization, "Копіювати" is used.
In the Belarusian localization, "Капіяваць" is used.

Although "скопировать" in Ukrainian "скопіювавши".
And although "скопировать" in Belarusian "Скапіяваць"

In this regard, it seems to me that the issue can be closed :)

It's a pity that users here can't put pros and cons to messages. Valery Ledovsky, thank you very much for your position and for returning "Копировать"

Жаль, что пользователи здесь не могут ставить плюсы и минусы сообщениям. Valery Ledovskoy, спасибо вам большое за вашу позицию и за возвращение "Копировать"

I'm sorry for the formatting post, it's not on purpose(

Thanks Valery for helping out in this bug. Please know that your contribution is very much appreciated, both by end users and my entire team, although Mozilla hasn't been very good at showing it.

P.S. I sent you an email a couple of weeks ago about Russian and pretranslation. Let me know if you didn't receive it (you can send me an email at the address here in Bugzilla).

One more note: this link might help you find remaining cases

There's a "edit in Pontoon" link that should help you find the strings.

Valery Ledovskoy , а в каких версиях это будет реализовано?

У меня ОС Вин7х64, а последняя версия для неё еср 115. Вот в ней будет эта замена?

In which versions will this be implemented?
I have OS Win7x64, and the latest version for it is ESR 115. Will this replacement be in it?

Changes should be in Nightly and next Beta. They will go automatically in release with 121 on December 19.

It will take longer with ESR, as uplifts are manual, and we're waiting for other changes.

(In reply to Francesco Lodolo [:flod] from comment #44)

One more note: this link might help you find remaining cases

There's a "edit in Pontoon" link that should help you find the strings.

Thanks for the link. Fixed it where it concerns this bug. In long sentences, I left "скопировать", where it cannot be changed, otherwise the sentences will be inconsistent.

P.S. I sent you an email a couple of weeks ago about Russian and pretranslation. Let me know if you didn't receive it (you can send me an email at the address here in Bugzilla).

I sent you an email. Please check if it has reached :)

правильно с точки зрения русского языка

The «Копировать» is familiar to most users, since it is used in the Windows interface, the audience of which is many times larger than the audience of Linux and macOS. However, this and the fact that it is similarly familiar to users of BE and UA does not make it compliant with the rules of the Russian language.

I can agree that the more familiar (incorrect) option should be kept, but please do not call it compliant with the rules of the Russian language. This is an important distinction. «Better» is not always the same as «right».

It’s more correct to follow the approach «first changes in dictionaries, only then in localization» When the words «надеть» and «функциональность» disappear from the dictionary, then this should be reflected in the localization.

It’s more correct to follow the approach «first changes in dictionaries, only then in localization»

It's a little different from the way you write. Or rather, it's not like that at all :) Dictionaries record what is used in the language. What appears in dictionaries is not used in the language. Languages are alive, and dictionaries record changes in the language. That's right :)

I just looked into Ubuntu 23.10. There is also a "Копировать" :)

It's not just Windows. This is everything except macOS, and even in the macOS help system, "Копировать".

As additional information.

The Russian language Reference service on the portal gramota.ru (the service includes researchers from the Institute of the Russian Language of the Russian Academy of Sciences) believe that both options can be used in the interface:

https://gramota.ru/spravka/vopros/212396#question
https://gramota.ru/spravka/vopros/293462#question

That is, both options are correct from the point of view of the language. And so we have to choose the option that is used more often. In order to ensure uniformity of terminology within the Mozilla product ecosystem.

Today I saw both versions of this verb in the one context menu of Telegram for iOS. And this looks generally terrible and misleads the user. It can also mislead the user when there is one verb form in the GUI and another in the help system (macOS).

Thus, since we work for users and both verb forms are correct from the point of view of the Russian language, we choose:

  1. An established term that is used in the vast majority of cases.
  2. We use it on all platforms and in all Mozilla products.
  3. We take into account the opinion of the vast majority of users (i.e. we take into account UX).

I believe this is fixed at this point.

Assignee: nobody → valery
Status: UNCONFIRMED → RESOLVED
Closed: 8 months ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
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