1954358 - Reminders are not displayed for All Day Events in Thunderbird 136 (since missed reminders now defaulted to off, and you're rarely at computer at midnight)

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(Calendar :: Alarms, defect)

Description

[dminter1]

Steps to reproduce:

I first noticed this after updating Thunderbrid 128 Gold to 136 Gold. Events were not displaying Reminders. No Events. After some testing, I discovered if I edited existing Events, changed their start time and saved them, effectively creating New Events, Reminders worked. If I created new Events, Reminders worked. Same with Tasks.

Actual results:

However, if an Event had the All day Event flag set or if a Task had its start time set to 12 AM and its end time to "the end of day," e.g 11:55 PM and Reminders were set to 0 minutes before, Reminders do not display. If you set an Event without All day Event set or set a Task with a time range that is not "all day," Reminders display.

Expected results:

What should have happened was at at the start of the day, a Reminder should have been displayed for these Events and Tasks. The Events and Tasks set with a "day" range or All day Event appear in the Calendar so they are being triggered, but the Reminders for All day Events and Tasks with a "day" range are not.

Comment 1

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

And it worked like this in 128?

Comment 2

[dminter1]

In 128, Reminders were always displayed for All day Events. And it did that for as long as I could remember using All day Events, going back I'm not sure how far. Probably at least to 115.

And this may need a separate "bug" entry or it may be related: it's to do with open Reminders. On 128 and earlier, if a Reminder was open for an Event whose End Time hadn't been reached yet and you hadn't clicked Dismiss or set a Snooze time, if you closed Thunderbird and reopened it, those Reminders were still open. Only when you pressed Dismiss/set a Snooze option and closed and reopened Thunderbird did the Reminders go away. On 136, when you close and reopen Thunderbird with open Reminders that haven't been Dismissed/Snoozed, those previously open Reminders are not opened again.

Thanks!

Comment 3

[dminter1]

Snooze for 1 Day also apparently doesn't work. I Snoozed an Event or Task, I forget which one, for a Day yesterday and it didn't return today on its snoozed time. And it's not in the Calendar for either an Event or Task for today. I created a new Task with a Reminder just now. The Task prompted a Reminder since I didn't set it as an All day Task, but when I chose to Snooze for a day, the Task is NOT on the Calendar for tomorrow.

So, there may be something somewhere involving 24 hour Events/Tasks/Reminders.

Oh, something I didn't think of trying. Let me take a backup of my system here in a bit before experimenting. Then, I'll uninstall Thunderbird 136, reboot, install 136, reboot, and create a brand new virgin Profile. Then, I'll create a few more new Tasks and experiment with the Reminders and 1 day Snoozes. I'll report back on that in a bit as I'll be away for a few hours here in a bit. It could be something in my Profile as the Tasks and Events in it were several years old when Thunderbird 128 was updated to 136. Could have been something in the conversion of Profile data from 128 to 136.

Thanks!

Comment 4

[dminter1]

UTTER failures attempting to alter Profile data in 136!

1.) CANNOT use Profile Manager to set a directory other than the Default in 136. If you change the directory for a profile, Profile Manager just closes and doesn't create the entry/do anything. If you choose the Default directory, it works as expected.

2.) After creating a Default profile in the default directory, Thunderbird says my e-mail address or my password are not correct, even though I quadruple checked and they are. So, it must be some configuration in the automatic look up for @roadrunner.com that is incorrect.

Is 136 a Gold release? It seems more and more on my end like a beta.

Comment 5

[dminter1]

(In reply to dminter1 from comment #4)

UTTER failures attempting to alter Profile data in 136!

1.) CANNOT use Profile Manager to set a directory other than the Default in 136. If you change the directory for a profile, Profile Manager just closes and doesn't create the entry/do anything. If you choose the Default directory, it works as expected.

2.) After creating a Default profile in the default directory, Thunderbird says my e-mail address or my password are not correct, even though I quadruple checked and they are. So, it must be some configuration in the automatic look up for @roadrunner.com that is incorrect.

Is 136 a Gold release? It seems more and more on my end like a beta.

I just discovered Replies apparently. :) Anyway, I tried a different hotmail.com account and got a temporary new Default account in the default folder created to test with. Everything I already stated in the previous posts here for possible bugs is STILL present on virgin Profile accounts.

Thanks!

Comment 6

[dminter1]

I think this should be the last thing I need to follow up for this as of now.

I restored down a Windows 11 24H2 backup taken December 4th, 2024 to the exact mirror of when it was at the time. Thunderbird 128 was installed. Profile Manager worked to create a new test Profile. I then created a new All day Event with a Reminder in 128. The Reminder was displayed. I updated 128 to 136.0, since I wasn't aware 136.0.1 was available at the time and I had the 136.0 installer at hand. I tested Profile Manager and it would NOT create new Profiles if you changed the Directory to anything but the Default. I then created a new All day Event in 136 and the Reminder did NOT display. That's when I discovered 136.0.1 was available and updated to that. I created a new All day Event in 136.0.1 and the Reminder still did NOT display. I then tested creating a new Profile in Profile Manager in 136.0.1. That DID let me create new Profiles with Profile directories other than the Default directory.

So, all issues are still present in 136.0.1 except the one I had just recently come across involving Profile Manager.

Thanks!

Comment 7

[triatic]

I'm also seeing problems with calendar events not appearing after upgrading from 128 to 136. I haven't yet determined exactly which type of events are effected, but I've created test events both all day and one hour which failed to trigger.

Missed calendar reminders can have all sorts of consequences for people, so this is a serious issue.

Comment 8

[triatic]

"Show missed reminder for writeable calendars" seems to have become unticked, I'm pretty sure it was ticked before: https://ibb.co/XxQXKXPc

Things seem to be working better now that I've ticked it.

Comment 9

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Oh, makes sense then, it would be due to bug 1934069.
Since you're not at the computer when the day changes, it would be seen as "missed" I suppose.

Comment 10

[triatic]

I don't fully understand the purpose of that option to be honest, my guess is that the option prevents a reminder for events if the PC was switched off when the reminder starts and switched on after the event begins. But it seems to have wider effects than that, and either way I believe it was ticked before the upgrade.

Comment 11

[triatic]

I've just read the bug report you linked @mkmelin and it's concerning to me. That feature might be annoying to some, but when it's disabled some future reminders simply don't fire for reasons I haven't yet been able to identify.

I suggest that feature is absolutely not removed until the full impact of removing it is assessed.

Comment 12

[dminter1]

(In reply to triatic from comment #8)

"Show missed reminder for writeable calendars" seems to have become unticked, I'm pretty sure it was ticked before: https://ibb.co/XxQXKXPc

Things seem to be working better now that I've ticked it.

Mine was unchecked to. Don't know if it was checked before, but, for the sake of thorough testing, I rechecked the box again and did another All day Event test. With that box checked again, All day Events DO display Reminders, like they had previously done under 128.

Comment 13

[triatic]

The Devs decided to untick the box even for existing installations, so it's highly likely "show missed reminders" was ticked for you before you upgraded.

Comment 14

[dminter1]

Ah, NOW it makes sense why it was happening. That box got unchecked without my knowledge... or consent! ;) So, when the new All day Events were being generated, they appeared that day, but the Reminder wasn't being displayed because it was, technically, a "missed" Reminder. 12 AM had already passed when the new Events were being triggered, so they were technically missed. With the box unchecked to show missed reminders, that was why I wasn't seeing them.

Still, Events for any day after the day they were created should have had Reminders displayed because those technically wouldn't be "missed reminders." But, I can see how someone might interpret them as a missed reminder... like apparently the Thunderbird developers. LOL

Comment 15

[triatic]

To me, a missed reminder is meant for events which are in the past, the reminder should fire as long as the current time is between the event start time and the reminder start time.

The whole thing is a confusing mess really and needs an urgent overhaul, especially now it's being unticked without consent!

Comment 16

[dminter1]

I agree with you. I don't consider it a "missed Reminder" but I can see, however incorrect it is to do such ;) that someone might think that way. I also thoroughly disagree with disabling a user's settings. Particularly without telling them they changed it or, at least, asking for permission to do so. The user may not WANT that.

Comment 17

[ItalianGM]

(In reply to triatic from comment #8)

"Show missed reminder for writeable calendars" seems to have become unticked, I'm pretty sure it was ticked before: https://ibb.co/XxQXKXPc

Things seem to be working better now that I've ticked it.

Checking the "Show missed reminder for writeable calendars" box fixed it for me too. Thanks for posting the fix.

Comment 18

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

I think the logic for all-day event reminders needs to be changed. It's not missed if it's still the same day. E.g. it's someones birthday you didn't miss this event even if you were not at the computer when the day turned.

Comment 19

[triatic]

(In reply to Magnus Melin [:mkmelin] from comment #18)

I think the logic for all-day event reminders needs to be changed. It's not missed if it's still the same day.

I agree, the reminder should fire as long as the event end time has not passed yet. A 0 minute reminder on an all day event is a good example of this.

Comment 20

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Hmm, it seems correct to remind for all ongoing events. E.g. you're coming to work a few minutes late, and should be at a meeting that just started. You'd want to be reminded this is still ongoing.

Comment 21

[triatic]

(In reply to Magnus Melin [:mkmelin] from comment #20)

Hmm, it seems correct to remind for all ongoing events. E.g. you're coming to work a few minutes late, and should be at a meeting that just started. You'd want to be reminded this is still ongoing.

Yes, and they did used to be reminded in this scenario under TB's default config, until the decision was made to alter the behaviour of missed reminders for existing profiles (which remains a shocking decision IMO).

Comment 22

[graham]

Grateful to have found this issue reported here and thus the cause of the problems I was having with 'missed' reminders that I missed not showing up as they did before.
Not only was the "Show missed reminders for writeable calendars" set to off, but every time my internet calendars re-synchronized, any reminder that was showing became a 'missed' reminder and never showed up again. I was missing stuff because if a reminder showed while I wasn't at the desktop, the re-sync would close the reminders dialog. The fix was simple to re-enable "Show missed reminders for writeable calendars".
I subsequently discovered that, in this bug [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1934069] raised by one of the developers, Alessandro Castellani [:aleca], he was complaining that he disliked this setting. I quote:
"This might be one of the most annoying features of Thunderbird...."
"For now, I propose disabling the Show missed reminders for writable calendars option and set it to false."
"I don't find this feature useful and it's more annoying than anything else."
He then assigned the bug to himself and forced Thunderbird to switch it off on both new and existing installations. Height of arrogance!! I, and many others, DO find this feature useful and wondered why it had stopped working. To have an update disable without warning nor with my consent is appalling behaviour by a software engineer.
I propose that the normal behaviour be reinstated with haste and Alessandro Castellani be reminded of the need to be less arrogant.

Comment 23

[triatic]

(In reply to graham from comment #22)

I propose that the normal behaviour be reinstated with haste and Alessandro Castellani be reminded of the need to be less arrogant.

I wholeheartedly agree. Someone within the Thunderbird project has become a little too powerful and is making decisions on a whim with no accountability. That's a worrying situation for any project such as this.

Comment 24

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Hello, thanks for your feedback and concerns.

Alessandro Castellani be reminded of the need to be less arrogant.
Someone within the Thunderbird project has become a little too powerful and is making decisions on a whim with no accountability.

I'm sorry you feel that way but that couldn't be farther from the truth.
I don't make decisions independently (no one inside Thunderbird does), and all the changes are discussed internally and publicly and evaluated against usability standards and competitive analysis.
We also kicked off a discussion in our public mailing list before doing anything: https://thunderbird.topicbox.com/groups/planning/T22a9802df20fa357-Mb35a59ccf966a845714e6782/intention-to-update-set-show-missed-reminders-option-to-false-by-default

What is the problem?

The major problems of this feature are 2:

• The reminders are shown for ALL past events, without a way to filter very old ones.
• The "Dismiss All" button doesn't work and that action is not respected.

There is also a big UX problem for first time users that set up a calendar for the first time as reminders of all past events are suddenly triggered and the dialog can't be dismissed. We witnessed this both internally and externally during some support sessions and that has always been one of the major turn offs for new user adoption.

What are the next steps

• We're not deprecating this feature. As you noticed, you can turn it back on.
• We're going through the rebuild and modernization of the calendar, and we will tackle missed reminders to fix all the lingering issues.

the reminder should fire as long as the event end time has not passed yet. A 0 minute reminder on an all day event is a good example of this.

Indeed, this is one of the many improvements that need to happen in the reminder handling code to make it more efficient and not overwhelm the user with non-dismissable reminders at startup.

Comment 25

[triatic]

(In reply to Alessandro Castellani [:aleca] from comment #24)

Hello, thanks for your feedback and concerns.

Thank you for outlining your position, but toggling this setting for existing profiles with no warning to the user was a step too far. Can you not see that?

Comment 26

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Attachment: Bug 1954358 - Show reminders for ongoing events even if calendar.alarms.showmissed is false. r=babolivier

Comment 27

[graham]

(In reply to Alessandro Castellani [:aleca] from comment #24)

Hello, thanks for your feedback and concerns.
And to you for yours.
May I point out the faults with your logic.

You state that there are two problems with the 'missed reminders' feature. In fact there are no problems with it. It does what it says next to the box - it is a feature that works as intended and as expected. I, and clearly many others, find this very useful. Thus your initial raising of bug 1934069 was incorrect. The feature works but you created the bug because you were annoyed with it.
Your second problem is actually not with the 'missed reminders' feature at all. It is, as you have stated, that the "Dismiss All" button on the reminder dialog does not work. Were that the case, THAT is The Bug and the pragmatic solution would be to fix That Bug. Then the basis of your annoyance with vast quantities of 'missed' reminders would be resolved.
However, I find your stance that the "Dismiss All" button does not work rather perplexing. It certainly works on my set-up (Linux Mint, T'bird 136 installed manually in /opt). Admittedly, it takes a l-o-n-g time to complete but then there are currently a number of aspects of T'bird 136 that are v-e-r-y-s-l-o-w...

I can see some merit in your statement that:

There is also a big UX problem for first time users that set up a calendar for the first time as reminders of all past events are suddenly triggered
But this does assume that the first time user is importing and existing .ICS from a local location or from a remote CALDAV or similar source. But maybe what you witnessed was the extended delay in "Dismiss All" completing... in which case THAT is part of That Bug that needs fixing.

What you do not seem to recognise is that in your haste to resolve your annoyance, you implemented a solution that impacted both new AND EXISTING users, and, in terms of software design best practice, THAT is very very bad practice. What you, and the fellow developers that discussed/worked on this issue should have recognised is that a) the feature is not the bug, b) the root cause of your annoyance was the "Dismiss All" button code, and c) you NEVER switch off a feature that existing users are relying upon.

I hope you appreciate that my intention here, as a retired senior systems management consultant, is to improve the methodology, analysis, and bug fixing approach to a software application that I am extremely fond of and rely upon to an immense degree.

Comment 28

[Pulsebot]

Pushed by [e-mail]:
https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/3dc459e1cd94
Show reminders for ongoing events even if calendar.alarms.showmissed is false. r=babolivier