Status

RESOLVED WONTFIX
14 years ago
3 years ago

People

(Reporter: mano, Assigned: jwalden+fxhelp)

Tracking

({access})

Firefox Tracking Flags

(Not tracked)

Details

The help viewer has many accessibility issues, it's also inconsistent with
either firefox or thunderbird ui. the following items are the main issues:
  * It's impossible to know what is the keyboard shortcuts of *any* of the
provided commands. That may be considered as less important issue for accel+f,
but do you know the sidebar can be toogled by F9?
  * The main help viewer toolbar is the only toolbar which cannot be hidden.
  * The toolbar/cust-dialog provides browser items which aren't exist in the
browser or mail application ui:
    * The customize toolbar button (shown by default!)
    * Font size buttons for (+ / -) 
  * other than the ones above, the following items exist in the browser ui but
are not shown by default (in the browser):
    * Show or hide help sidebar button
    * Print button
  * There is no way to discover "Reset text size" command. This item is shown in
both firefox and thundebird view menu. Accel+0 does work, but how should I know?
  * One needs to hit tab after hitting control+tab in order to actually use the
sidebar.
  * The context menu provies a useless "Reload" item
  * A go menu which could contain the current session's pages history history is
missing.
  * The context menu is missing the "copy" command.
  * There is no way to open another instance of the help viewer.
  * On mac os x: the default back and forward keybindings (Accel+[ ] ) don't work.
  * There is no way to open the cust dialog w/o the mouse.
The help viewer has many accessibility issue, it's also inconsistent with either
firefox or thunderbird ui. the following items are the main issues:
  * It's impossible to know what is the keyboard shortcuts of *any* of the
provided commands. That may be considered as less important issue for accel+f,
but did you know the sidebar can be toogled by F9?
  * The main help viewer toolbar is the only toolbar which cannot be hidden.
  * The toolbar/cust-dialog provides browser items which aren't exist in the
browser or mail application ui:
    * The customize toolbar button (shown by default!)
    * Font size buttons for (+ / -) 
  * other than the ones above, the following items exist in the browser ui but
are not shown by default (in the browser):
    * Show or hide help sidebar button
    * Print button
  * There is no way to discover "Reset text size" command, this item is shown in
both firefox and thundebird view menu. Accel+0 does work, but how should i know?
  * One needs to hit tab after hitting control+tab in order to actually use the
sidebar
  * The context menu provied a useless "Reload" item
  * A go menu with current session's pages history history is missing.
  * The context menu is missing the "copy" command.
  * There is no way to open another instance of the help viewer.
  * On mac os x: the default back and forward keybindings (Accel+[ ] ) don't work.
  * There is no way to open the cust dialog w/o the mouse.
  * While the print command is accessiable,  the page setup command isn't.

In order to solve most of these issues i'm suggesting to add the following menubar:

  File:
    --New (Accel+N)
    -- ----
    --Print (Accel+P)
    --Page Setup
    -- ----
    --Close (Accel+W)

  Edit:
    --Undo (Accel+Z)  <- Enabled only when the search field is focused
    --Redo (Accel+Y/Accel+Shift+Z?)  <- ...
    -- ----
    --Cut (Accel+X)  <- ...
    --Copy (Accel+C)
    --Paste (Accel+P)  <- Enabled only when the search field is focused
    --Delete <- ....
    -- ----
    --Select All (Accel+A)
    -- ----
    --Find in this page (Accel+F)
    --Find again (Accel+G)

  View:
  --Toolbars >
  ----[v]Toolbar
  ----[v]Status bar <- not sure about this one
  ---- ----
  ---- Customize...
  --{Text size menu (like the one in the main browser window)}

  Go:
  --Back  <- platform keybinding
  --Forward <- ...
  --Home <- ...
  --Navigation (need better label) >
  ----[ ]Glossary
  ----[ ]Index
  ----[ ]Search (Accel+K should work here)
  ----[*]Contents
  -- ----
  --{last pages}

  [Mac only]Window:
  --{mac window menu)

  Help:
  ----Finding the Topic you want
  ----Retracing Your Steps
  ----Search Tips

I may take this bug, pending your comments.
(In reply to comment #0)
> The help viewer has many accessibility issues, it's also inconsistent with
> either firefox or thunderbird ui. the following items are the main issues:

Are you planning on doing all of these as one patch?

>   * It's impossible to know what is the keyboard shortcuts of *any* of the
> provided commands. That may be considered as less important issue for accel+f,
> but do you know the sidebar can be toogled by F9?

I propose the keyboard shortcuts are shown in the tooltips of the toolbar items.
Remember that the shortcuts are not formatted equally in all languages.

>   * The main help viewer toolbar is the only toolbar which cannot be hidden.

How should we go about and show it again? Making it possible to hide it is nice,
though.

>   * The toolbar/cust-dialog provides browser items which aren't exist in the
> browser or mail application ui:
>     * The customize toolbar button (shown by default!)

I agree that this one should not be shown by default.

>     * Font size buttons for (+ / -) 

I vote that these stay as default buttons. They are very useful in the help
viewer (and also in the browser, but that is another issue).

>   * other than the ones above, the following items exist in the browser ui but
> are not shown by default (in the browser):

And .. you want them removed ?

>   * There is no way to discover "Reset text size" command. This item is shown in
> both firefox and thundebird view menu. Accel+0 does work, but how should I know?

I don't think it's really needed. People use the + and - buttons to get the size
they want, and rarely change it afterwards.

>   * There is no way to open the cust dialog w/o the mouse.

Isn't that an issue in FF and TB as well?

(I think you repeated some of the issues)

Things I haven't commented on, I agree with. However, I'm not sure we need a
menu bar at all, and would like to see the help viewer not having one.
(In reply to comment #1)
> (In reply to comment #0)
> > The help viewer has many accessibility issues, it's also inconsistent with
> > either firefox or thunderbird ui. the following items are the main issues:
> 
> Are you planning on doing all of these as one patch?

probably, that's why i filed one bug.

> 
> >   * It's impossible to know what is the keyboard shortcuts of *any* of the
> > provided commands. That may be considered as less important issue for accel+f,
> > but do you know the sidebar can be toogled by F9?
> 
> I propose the keyboard shortcuts are shown in the tooltips of the toolbar items.

spec? you'll need to show much more items in the toolbar in order to resolve
this issue without the menubar.

> >   * The main help viewer toolbar is the only toolbar which cannot be hidden.
> 
> How should we go about and show it again? Making it possible to hide it is nice,
> though.

with the menu item i mention later.


> >     * Font size buttons for (+ / -) 
> 
> I vote that these stay as default buttons. They are very useful in the help
> viewer (and also in the browser, but that is another issue).

I agree these buttons are useful, but if there're not going to be landed in the
browser, they shoudn't be there.

> >   * other than the ones above, the following items exist in the browser ui but
> > are not shown by default (in the browser):
> 
> And .. you want them removed ?

...menu, then yes.
 
> >   * There is no way to discover "Reset text size" command. This item is shown in
> > both firefox and thundebird view menu. Accel+0 does work, but how should I know?
> 
> I don't think it's really needed. People use the + and - buttons to get the size
> they want, and rarely change it afterwards.

This was well disscussed a while ago, in what way help docs differ from webpages
(according to this command).

> >   * There is no way to open the cust dialog w/o the mouse.
> 
> Isn't that an issue in FF and TB as well?

no, you can use the menu (which is accessiable via the keyboard).
 
> (I think you repeated some of the issues)

name them?

> I'm not sure we need a
> menu bar at all, and would like to see the help viewer not having one.

becuase?
(In reply to comment #2)
> > Are you planning on doing all of these as one patch?
> 
> probably, that's why i filed one bug.

I'd rather see individual bugs for many of the things. Of course, adding a menu
in itself would be one bug.

> > I propose the keyboard shortcuts are shown in the tooltips of the toolbar items.
> 
> spec? you'll need to show much more items in the toolbar in order to resolve
> this issue without the menubar.

What spec? The Show/Hide Toolbar-button would have the following tooltip:
"Show/Hide Toolbar (F9)". I hardly see that worthy of a spec.

> > >   * The main help viewer toolbar is the only toolbar which cannot be hidden.
> > 
> > How should we go about and show it again? Making it possible to hide it is nice,
> > though.
> 
> with the menu item i mention later.

Of course, but I was asking under the impression that there would be no menu.

> > >     * Font size buttons for (+ / -) 
> > 
> > I vote that these stay as default buttons. They are very useful in the help
> > viewer (and also in the browser, but that is another issue).
> 
> I agree these buttons are useful, but if there're not going to be landed in the
> browser, they shoudn't be there.

Why not?

> > >   * other than the ones above, the following items exist in the browser ui but
> > > are not shown by default (in the browser):
> > 
> > And .. you want them removed ?
> 
> ...menu, then yes.

I strongly disagree.

> > >   * There is no way to discover "Reset text size" command. This item is
shown in
> > > both firefox and thundebird view menu. Accel+0 does work, but how should I
know?
> > 
> > I don't think it's really needed. People use the + and - buttons to get the size
> > they want, and rarely change it afterwards.
> 
> This was well disscussed a while ago, in what way help docs differ from webpages
> (according to this command).

Where?

> > >   * There is no way to open the cust dialog w/o the mouse.
> > 
> > Isn't that an issue in FF and TB as well?
> 
> no, you can use the menu (which is accessiable via the keyboard).

Ah, good point. What about making a keyboard shortcut for it istead of adding a
menu?

> > (I think you repeated some of the issues)
> name them?

Just read your initial comment; some of your bulletpoints are repeated.

> > I'm not sure we need a
> > menu bar at all, and would like to see the help viewer not having one.
> 
> becuase?

I rather think we should ask "Why do we need it?". The only reason I see now is
for showing the toolbar once you have hidden it (which isn't really needed either).
(summation here of stuff I've been saying for a while)

http://www.steelgryphon.com/stuff/Screenshot-Mozilla%20Firefox%20Help.png is
more where I'd envision taking the help viewer.  Its consistent with the
Firefox/Tbird UI, and with proper accesskeys we should be fine for accessibility.

> The help viewer has many accessibility issues, it's also inconsistent with
> either firefox or thunderbird ui. the following items are the main issues:
>   * It's impossible to know what is the keyboard shortcuts of *any* of the
> provided commands. That may be considered as less important issue for accel+f,
> but do you know the sidebar can be toogled by F9?

See the above link.  With proper accesskeys/tab cycling we're fine.

>   * The main help viewer toolbar is the only toolbar which cannot be hidden.

Irrelevant.  IMO we sometimes provide too much customization room.

>   * The toolbar/cust-dialog provides browser items which aren't exist in the
> browser or mail application ui:
>     * The customize toolbar button (shown by default!)

Shouldn't be there, ever.  IMO we shouldn't have it customizable anyway, its a
Help Viewer, we should have a simple, highly usable design and be done with it.

>     * Font size buttons for (+ / -) 

The text zoom buttons are useless and should be removed completely.  Help
content should be using the user's default text size, and if that's not the
right size for them, they should adjust it.  If we persisted the text zoom, then
"maybe" but I would still say that having font sizing UI is a poor answer to a
bad question.


>   * other than the ones above, the following items exist in the browser ui but
> are not shown by default (in the browser):
>     * Show or hide help sidebar button

Actually, we don't have a single sidebar toggle, we have buttons for each
sidebar.  Here, we want to expose everything, in Firefox we've taken a minimal
default.

>     * Print button

Should be on the toolbar.

>   * There is no way to discover "Reset text size" command. This item is shown in
> both firefox and thundebird view menu. Accel+0 does work, but how should I know?

I'm not sold on the usefulness of text zoom in a Help Viewer, period.

>   * One needs to hit tab after hitting control+tab in order to actually use the
> sidebar.

Current sidebar impl needs to die.

>   * The context menu provies a useless "Reload" item

Reload is useful for remote content (note that Help images are remote).

>   * A go menu which could contain the current session's pages history history is
> missing.

This is a help viewer, not a browser.  This should never be added.

>   * The context menu is missing the "copy" command.

There's a bug on this already.

>   * There is no way to open another instance of the help viewer.

This is in part because its alwaysRaised, and multiple Help windows can be
confusing.  The value of multiple help instances is debatable, considering the
target audience.

>   * On mac os x: the default back and forward keybindings (Accel+[ ] ) don't work.

This of course should be fixed.  Split this off into a separate bug.

>   * There is no way to open the cust dialog w/o the mouse.

Simple fix, don't have customization.

>   * While the print command is accessiable,  the page setup command isn't.

Make the toolbar button for print have a dropdown a la Tbird's check new
messages button.

> 
> In order to solve most of these issues i'm suggesting to add the following
menubar:
> 
>   File:
>     --New (Accel+N)
>     -- ----
>     --Print (Accel+P)
>     --Page Setup
>     -- ----
>     --Close (Accel+W)

Other than the page setup being useful, this is unnecessary, and this is a
viewer, not a browser ;)

>   Edit:
>     --Undo (Accel+Z)  <- Enabled only when the search field is focused
>     --Redo (Accel+Y/Accel+Shift+Z?)  <- ...
>     -- ----
>     --Cut (Accel+X)  <- ...
>     --Copy (Accel+C)
>     --Paste (Accel+P)  <- Enabled only when the search field is focused
>     --Delete <- ....
>     -- ----
>     --Select All (Accel+A)
>     -- ----
>     --Find in this page (Accel+F)
>     --Find again (Accel+G)

This isn't terribly useful to the Help Viewer's intended audience, IMO.  If you
need to have Find and Find Again exposed, the help content is probably a bit too
long per document.

>   View:
>   --Toolbars >
>   ----[v]Toolbar
>   ----[v]Status bar <- not sure about this one
>   ---- ----
>   ---- Customize...
>   --{Text size menu (like the one in the main browser window)}

Overkill for a Help Viewer.

>   Go:
>   --Back  <- platform keybinding
>   --Forward <- ...
>   --Home <- ...
>   --Navigation (need better label) >
>   ----[ ]Glossary
>   ----[ ]Index
>   ----[ ]Search (Accel+K should work here)
>   ----[*]Contents
>   -- ----
>   --{last pages}

This is probably the one I feel most strongly about.  This doesn't belong in a
Help Viewer, period.
 
>   [Mac only]Window:
>   --{mac window menu)
 
>   Help:
>   ----Finding the Topic you want
>   ----Retracing Your Steps
>   ----Search Tips

I really don't like the idea of having a Help menu in a Help Viewer, for obvious
reasons.
Having tooltips show the shortcut only works IF you can mouse over in the first
place.  That's a poor solution for people who can't use the mouse.... ;)
(In reply to comment #3)

> > spec? you'll need to show much more items in the toolbar in order to resolve
> > this issue without the menubar.
> What spec? The Show/Hide Toolbar-button would have the following tooltip:
> "Show/Hide Toolbar (F9)". I hardly see that worthy of a spec.

I'll try to explain myself do we show keyboard shortcut in tooltips in other
places? if the answer is no, it's nothing more than a bad design workaround.


> > > >     * Font size buttons for (+ / -) 
> > > 
> > > I vote that these stay as default buttons. They are very useful in the help
> > > viewer (and also in the browser, but that is another issue).
> > 
> > I agree these buttons are useful, but if there're not going to be landed in the
> > browser, they shoudn't be there.
> 
> Why not?

should i copy & paste the same statement, in one word - "consistenty".

> 
> > > >   * other than the ones above, the following items exist in the browser
ui but
> > > > are not shown by default (in the browser):
> > > 
> > > And .. you want them removed ?
> > 
> > ...menu, then yes.
> 
> I strongly disagree.

is this a yes<->no argument?

 

> > This was well disscussed a while ago, in what way help docs differ from webpages
> > (according to this command).
> 
> Where?

some bugs, it was fixed in bug 174854.


> Ah, good point. What about making a keyboard shortcut for it istead of adding a
> menu?

and how would i know what is the keybinding?
(In reply to comment #6)
> Having tooltips show the shortcut only works IF you can mouse over in the first
> place.  That's a poor solution for people who can't use the mouse.... ;)

Oh my god :) I should really get some more coffee, and never comment in this bug
again.

That aside, I actually agree with everything said in comment 5, so all my
previous comments can just be adapted to agree with it :)

mconnor: What is the "HTML" dropdown besides the Print button? Is it for
selecting output format? If so, and if we add a dropdown to the actual button, I
think it should be removed and added to the dropdown instead ("Print as rich
text", "Print as plain text" or something).
not gonna happen.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Last Resolved: 14 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
(In reply to comment #8)
> mconnor: What is the "HTML" dropdown besides the Print button? Is it for
> selecting output format? If so, and if we add a dropdown to the actual button, I
> think it should be removed and added to the dropdown instead ("Print as rich
> text", "Print as plain text" or something).

oh, a poorly done search box, I thought that might implied by the sidebar search
results, but there should be a search button next to it.

Updated

14 years ago
Component: Help Viewer → Help Viewer
Product: Firefox → Toolkit
Version: Trunk → unspecified
Product: Toolkit → Seamonkey
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