Open Bug 485593 Opened 17 years ago Updated 3 months ago

Edit as New includes reference message-id to the original article, as if I had replied or forward the message. Edit as New should ditch such headers

Categories

(MailNews Core :: Composition, defect)

Product:
MailNews Core
Component:
Composition
Platform:
x86
Windows Vista
Type:
defect

Tracking

(Not tracked)

People

(Reporter: wsmwk, Unassigned)

References

(Blocks 1 open bug)

Details

Attachments

(1 obsolete file)

Edit as New of newsgroup article includes reference to the original article, as if I had replied or forward the message. Edit as New should ditch all headers of the original message. 1. pick a newsgroup message and do edit as new 2. save as draft 3. view the draft source actual results: draft contains References: in header expected results: no reference to the original message, nor anything related to any prior messages
this bit me again. not surprising, happens also with regular mail. xref bug 218716
Summary: Edit as New of newsgroup article includes reference to the original article, as if I had replied or forward the message → Edit as New includes reference message-id to the original article, as if I had replied or forward the message. Edit as New should ditch such headers
(In reply to comment #0) > expected results: > no reference to the original message, nor anything related to any prior > messages Sounds right to me
Sounds like WONTFIX! If I reedit a message which is a reply, *of course* the references must be kept!
To be more precise: the current implementation is "reedit", the menuitems are "just" badly named. It won't help breaking all stuff depending on this behaviour, but a new command which does as described in comment #0 might prove valuable.
(In reply to comment #3) > If I reedit a message which is a reply, *of course* the references must be > kept! But this is "Edit as New", not reedit. As I understand it, the features purpose is to take an existing message and send it as if it were a new message written by you. It seems like including a reference message-id would defeat that purpose.
OS: Windows Vista → All
Hardware: x86 → All
Version: unspecified → Trunk
(In reply to comment #4) > To be more precise: the current implementation is "reedit", the menuitems are > "just" badly named. It won't help breaking all stuff depending on this > behaviour, but a new command which does as described in comment #0 might prove > valuable. I see, I wasn't aware of this design. Not sure how to proceed.
I never thought of it as reedit. Karsten is that really the origins of this function? I didn't find any references outside the code to anything older than 2007. Anyway, you may be right about breaking functions that depend on this behavior - do we know of any? Problem is a) there is no other way to get rid of the "history" of the original message, b) I doubt any non-technical users know this is happening to them. One bad effect is that new messages sent with a different subject are threaded to the original message - which is precisely what I want to avoid. Additionally, I just sent a new message from Template, and the same effect can be observed. IMO this behavior is even worse.
OS: All → Windows Vista
Hardware: All → x86
Version: Trunk → unspecified
(In reply to comment #7) > I never thought of it as reedit. What kind of edits are there and how often are they used? - new mails: empty mail, no dependencies - reply: empty/quoted text, depends upon mail replied to - forward: inline/attachment, depends upon mail replied to - open (edit) message from template/draft folder: "reedit" (=edit as is!) , keep dependencies - open (edit) existing message from elsewhere: "reedit" What you are looking for is "new mail, but with body (only) from somewhere else", which kind of violates the expectation that editing a mail would edit this very mail as is and not something else which looks the same on the surface... > Karsten is that really the origins of this function? It's how it's implemented and how it makes sense. If I edit a reply because I forgot to CC someone, I don't want to loose the references! > Problem is a) there is no other way to get rid of the "history" of the > original message, Why would you want to do that? That's a very special case, imo, you could just as well do copy and paste. > b) I doubt any non-technical users know this is happening to them. I doubt that. If I edit a reply, it should still be a reply. If I strip the references (or whatever other header), it isn't. > One bad effect is that new messages sent with a different subject are > threaded to the original message - which is precisely what I want to avoid. When would that happen? You send the same mail to someone who already was part of the same thread anyway - this doesn't make much sense, even less to break the reply notion. People are even _replying_ to mails to write _new_ ones and wonder why there're references - that's not uncommon on mailinglists, but still is a lack of understanding, not of the program (modulo confusing option wording, of course). > Additionally, I just sent a new message from Template, and the same effect can > be observed. IMO this behavior is even worse. Again, no. The mail edited should be edited AS IS. If you save it with references, they should be kept. The actual problem here is that our UI doesn't show all headers, not even optionally. _That_ would be a real enhancement. Don't try to "fix" what ain't broken.
I think this is broken, but do not agree with either Comment #0 nor #7. There are 3 legitimate uses for "reedit-like" user commands: 1. Reply/forward, this should reference the original and all referenced by the original. The Reply/Reply All/Forward functions do this nicely. 2. To pick up one of your own messages (or one written for you by an assistant), edit it further and then send it. This should preserve the references made by the original, but not add a reference to the draft/original itself. This is how I mostly use the badly named "Edit as new" command. It could also be seen as a "continue editing after possible premature send", but that is just one usage. Suggested change: Rename user command to "Edit Again" and make sure the function invoked by that command does not reference the edited message, but keeps the references made by that message. 3. To start a new thread with the "general headers" (From, To, Reply-To etc.) and general body of an existing message as a template. This should have no references in it. This should be the default behavior when picking up content from the Templates. If a separate user command is needed it should be named "Use as Template", with an internal function called "usetemplate". Another implementation idea could be a general "editas" function which takes a parameter indicating the level of reference preservation, another indicating the desired manipulation of To/From/Cc headers, and a third one taking an optional closure (function+object) that can do additional manipulations such as adding the "Re:" prefix in the subject.
This "feature" should either be renamed to something else, or then the headers should be cleaned up, and the message should be as "A new message" wihout references to the old message. eg the In-Reply-To and References should be removed.
tb: 31.1.1 kernel: 3.16.2-1 i checked 'safe-mode' and 'new profile'. The result is the same.
Blocks: 872469
Tough call. There are arguments for both sides. In some cases you want to re-create the very same message again, in other cases the lazy ones just pick a message that looks vaguely what they want to send again, "edit as new", modify a bit, then send. And boom, it messes up the threading on the other end :-(
Actually, why would you want to re-create the exact same message (including refs)?
The *only* way I have ever used it, is as a template for a new message without having go through the trouble of making a template - which is pointless in one-off cases, and cases where you want to base your "template" from the very most recent version of a particular type of message. In both of those cases, including message-id is a horrible side effect.
c/which is pointless in one-off cases/making template is pointless for one-off cases/ (my terrible habit of incomplete sentences)
See comment #8: (In reply to Karsten Düsterloh from comment #8) > > Karsten is that really the origins of this function? > It's how it's implemented and how it makes sense. If I edit a reply because > I forgot to CC someone, I don't want to loose the references! Not a strong use case, since it you've forgotten someone, you don't want to ship to all the original recipients again, unless you sent the message to the outbox (send later). In fact, there's another use case. I sometimes edit messages in the outbox "as new", and they need to stay intact. Like with mailing list munging, impossible to change the behaviour without creating an outcry. But we could create a new command or some option/prompt.
Agreed, I don't see the use case of editing a reply to include someone. You'd just reply to the mail and get a followup (reply-to-self). For outbox, their references need to stay intact, but that's different and "Edit as new" is not what you want, it sounds like. Rather an Edit (make a draft looking like this, and delete the original).
outbox is definitely an explicit exception, where you are likely fixing a bad message
Severity: normal → S3
Duplicate of this bug: 1900048

Hi to everyone, I hope this 15 years old bug report will be reconsidered and fixed.
IMHO "edit as new message" shall remove all header related to previous message otherwise there's no difference between a reply and "edit as new message".

Why do I find useful such future?
It often happens to me I have a message that I want to "reuse" but being sure to start a new conversation.
This feature allow us to use any message as a sort of template.
Most users will not even notice such option and will use "reply /reply to all", there's no reason for them to click on "Edit as new message".
But those users that know/understand the future, will really appreciate it.

Please let me know it the rationals of this request are clear enough.

Thank you.

It seems to be as simple as that to implement. Do we want this? Or should it be controlled by a user preference?

It needs to be controlled on a case by case basis. Some user may want to send a message again as it was, maybe via a different outgoing server or after removing/inlining an attachment since the original message has been rejected. Others may want to correct a mistake they spotted reading the message in the outbox.

Since individual workflows are unknown, it's not advisable to change existing behavior.

"Edit as new" is not "Save + use template", where "Save template" removes the references. I agree with comment 3.

(In reply to Francesco from comment #23)

It needs to be controlled on a case by case basis. Some user may want to send a message again as it was, maybe via a different outgoing server or after removing/inlining an attachment since the original message has been rejected. Others may want to correct a mistake they spotted reading the message in the outbox.

Yes, these are indeed valid use cases.

Perhaps the removal of references could be toggled by holding down the Shift key, similar to Shift-Delete …

Attachment #9420674 - Attachment is obsolete: true

I am not in favor of using shift key. Adding another function seems overkill. Definitely not add a preference.

I'm going to hold fast and say ideally "Edit as New" should do exactly that and IMO there is no other reason for "Edit" - I think the current implementation is broken and I would bet money half the people using it don't realize references are not being removed.

Failing that, what about adding a UI menu item which removes references to the original message. It would be discoverable, and might be used in multiple situations.

We should check with the UI folks before proceeding. Telemetry stats would be interesting, although it won't tell us how the user expects it to behave.

Flags: needinfo?(richard.marti)

(In reply to Wayne Mery (:wsmwk) from comment #25)

I am not in favor of using shift key.

Note that using the shift key already has the function to change the compose format (HTML/plaintext) from default to non-default. That's consistent with "Write", "Reply" and "Forward". Since you basically want to use a message as a template, adding a new menu item "New Message from Existing" (or similar) might be best.

Some bug-forensics:

We find in this mess an odd usecase for preserving message-id cited in bug 288702 - saving an edited template should replace existing template, and keep same message-id. Not sure how valid the reasoning is.

We shouldn't change this behaviour how it works since years and is in my opinion correct. "Edit as New" is maybe not correctly named.

I tend to add the Shift key to remove all header data except From, To and Subject.

Flags: needinfo?(richard.marti)

(In reply to Richard Marti (:Paenglab) from comment #28)

We shouldn't change this behaviour how it works since years and is in my opinion correct. "Edit as New" is maybe not correctly named.

Then it should be renamed?

I tend to add the Shift key to remove all header data except From, To and Subject.

How will the difference in function be indicated?

I always thought the two options meant the following:
'Edit Draft Message' meant open the current draft to modify and resave original. So you only have one draft and anything you modify overwrites the original.
'Edit as New Message' meant keep the original as is but open the draft in current state as an additional copy which now means when I modifiy it and resave, a new version is saved and the original is still in tact. So I have two versions of a draft.

After all it is an 'Edit' of current saved draft, so I would expect all data in original to be displayed for editing; it's just a choice of editing current draft or editing to create a second draft.

Maybe the wording could be 'Edit as new copy' ?

In comment 26 I suggested "New Message from Existing". That would create a new message, stripping all its history, incl. references.

Yes, as new means "as new", not copy of original. Maybe "New Clean Message from Existing"? Anyway, this has been an issue for 16 years, so i hope that this would finally be resolved

(In reply to Francesco from comment #31)

In comment 26 I suggested "New Message from Existing". That would create a new message, stripping all its history, incl. references.

Now that really is confusing and I fail to see the point of right clicking on a draft just to access '+new message'. Right clicks on anything show options on what can be done with the item. Create a completely new message is an entirely different action unrelated to an existing draft. If someone wants to create a new message then they would use '+New Message'. That option is available on the 'Folder Pane Header' and also on the 'Unified Toolbar'.

I use the current 'Edit as New Message' frequently when I want all the previous history data etc, so I can modify sections and then know a Save as Draft will auto create a new modified draft broadly similar to original. There is no other function available to simply do that. There are other ways to just compose a new message.

I do not want anything stripping, I want to 'edit as a new copy of draft'.
So I'm proposing nothing is altered except for the Text maybe : 'Edit as new draft'

If people are being lazy and want to use an unsent draft just so they can resuse the FROM etc and not the content, then they can save various emails with desired commonly used FROM and TO etc as templates. This is a function already provided. Even if a only the FROm and TO etc are just saved as a draft (instead of template) with no content, so it can be reused - you still want to keep all that is currently saved and still have the ability to 'Edit as a New Draft'.

Let me clarify: We need to functions to base a new message on an existing one:

  1. Editing a message as new with all its headers incl. references.
  2. Editing a message as new without "history".

For the second one I proposed "New Message from Existing" next to "Edit message as new" on the context menu. "New Message from Template" already exists on the context menu for templates, and "New Message from Existing" is about the same functionality as creating a new message from a template. But you can call it anything you like, for example" "Edit message as new without history" or "Edit message as new draft".

Your comments about "New Message" are OT here.

Can we please have this BUG resolved. 16 years is a long time for ignorance.

There are two options.

  1. Clear the headers when creating the new message, so we have a "NEW" message as the menu entry in thunderbird says: "Edit as new message"
  2. Change the menu entry to reflect what the process really does: "Create duplicate of message"

If Mozilla picks option 2, then create a possibility to create a message from the original message. This is a needed function for cases you need to send the same message as a new thread for a new recipient!

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