590810 - [config] Add ocn.ne.jp, ocn.ad.jp in an attempt to get coverage for *.ocn.ne.jp

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(Webtools :: ISPDB Database Entries, defect)

Description

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

Usually, we wouldn't add universities to the ISPDB, too small. This one, however, has 500 new TB setups per day, making it top2 of the missing domains, and being there since quite a while. We should add the config.

Kohei, can you gather the config?

Comment 1

[Kohei Yoshino [:kohei]]

OCN is the biggest ISP in Japan that provides *.ocn.ne.jp accounts for their customers. ocn.ad.jp is their corporate email accounts. I guess OCN has deployed Thunderbird in the company. (ocn.co.jp is a different company)

We have tried to contact OCN to gather *.ocn.ne.jp accounts info, but they have never responded.

So, this might be WONTFIX.

# ad.jp: ISPs, same as ne.jp
# ac.jp: Japanese universities

BTW, how can I see the missing domain list?

Comment 2

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

you can write an email to postmaster@...ocn.ad.jp

Comment 3

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

I mailed postmaster@ , in English.

Comment 4

[Kohei Yoshino [:kohei]]

Again, ocn.ad.jp is for their *employees*, not for customers.
The ISP customer accounts are *.ocn.ne.jp.

I'll send a follow-up email, and reopen this bug if I'm wrong.

Comment 5

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

*sigh*
We have several hundred people *per day*, since many weeks, setting up accounts like this. I don't think they have 10000 employees, do they?

Comment 6

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

Also, hit rate is not decreasing on (japanese) weekends, but considerably increasing.

Comment 7

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

Kohei, we are both right... The customer domains could be indeed something.ocn.ne.jp, but they show up in our list as ocn.ad.jp because of the MX lookup and the MX server hostname being in domain ocn.ac.jp.

Comment 8

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

> ... in domain ocn.ac.jp.

domain ocn.ad.jp I mean

Comment 9

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

http://help.ocn.ne.jp/ols/tr/mail/12780_trm_tbird30win.html
http://help.ocn.ne.jp/ols/tr/mail/12157_trm_tbird20mac.html

email domain: blue.ocn.ne.jp
username: EMAILLOCALPART
POP3: blue.ocn.ne.jp, port 110, no SSL
SMTP: blue.vc.blue.ocn.ne.jp, port 587, no SSL

Comment 10

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

Kohei, could you please find me a contact at ocn.ad.jp? This is consistently our top1 missing domain.

I'd like to know how the email domain maps to mail pools and most importantly whether all customers (of all subdomains) can use one and the same SMTP server.

Comment 11

[Kohei Yoshino [:kohei]]

OK, I'll try to contact their support address which found at
http://www.security.ocn.ne.jp/request.html

Comment 12

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

Support (hotline) is useless in my experience. They will not give you the right information, but demand that we use the blue.vc.blue.ocn.ne.jp nonsense.
We need information about their technical setup, so please try to reach their mail server admins, possibly via management.

Comment 13

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

I mailed postmaster@

Comment 14

[Kohei Yoshino [:kohei]]

I can no longer handle this.

Comment 15

[Karl Dubost💡 :karlcow]

Ben,

You may try this 
http://service.ocn.ne.jp/english/business/support/

> For general information on OCN services or to enroll in an OCN service, please contact us by e-mail.
> E-Mail:[e-mail]

Comment 16

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

> [e-mail]

Sent mail to them, but I don't have a lot of hope.

Comment 17

[Andrew Sutherland [:asuth] (he/him)]

http://support.ntt.com/ocn/support/pid2990020001 seems to cover the situation now:

- POP3 only, no IMAP. valid initial-TLS on pop.ocn.ne.jp:995 using full email address
- valid initial-TLS on smtp.ocne.ne.jp:465

A complicating factor is that there is an unknowable set of ocn.ne.jp subdomains, and Thunderbird only applies its nsIEffectiveTLDService.getBaseDomain logic to the result returned from the MX lookup, not the root domain.  (Another complication is that FxOS email does not have the publicsuffix.org database built-in, so it will over-truncated to "ne.jp" which is of course quite wrong.)

So I'm proposing the following course of action which I'm also going to implement:
- Create an ISPDB entry with the above settings.
- Explicitly enumerate the following hosts:
  - blue.ocn.ne.jp - because that's the one we know about
  - ocn.ne.jp - because it could make sense for a heuristic to be grown that computes the base domain
  - ocn.ad.jp - Because the Thunderbird MX lookup will eventually find its way here.  Per comment 4, this may incorrectly direct the employees of OCN at their company's consumer mail infrastructure, but arguably this aligns the pain with the group capable of fixing the problem and self-hosted autoconfig will bypass us.

In the future we could mitigate the ambiguity that captures ocn.ad.jp by implementing the conditionalized MX-entry matching I propose on bug 1185366.  Specifically, the different domains all have distinct mx subdomains.  (ex: blue.ocn.ne.jp has an mx of ['mfgw3.ocn.ad.jp'], ocn.ne.jp has ['gateway4.ocn.ad.jp', 'gateway3.ocn.ad.jp'], and ocn.ad.jp has ['gateway2.ocn.ad.jp', 'gateway1.ocn.ad.jp'].

Comment 18

[Katsuhiro Sasagaki]

Hi, guys.
I'm Sasa who's working for NTT Com offering OCN Mail service using 300+ *.ocn.ne.jp subdomains.
We're planing to deal with the auto configuration for the Thunderbird users.
Please let me know what we have to do.
(Making and adding some XML files, and so on?)

Regards,
Sasa

Comment 19

[Andrew Sutherland [:asuth] (he/him)]

Hello!

If you wish to self-host, there is information at https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Thunderbird/Autoconfiguration#Configuration_server_at_ISP that can help you understand how to do that and how autoconfiguration works.

Because there are so many domains, it may make sense to do what I proposed in comment 17 (but unfortunately did not finish doing), with the ISPDB hosting entries based on the MX lookups.

It would be great if you can confirm that:
- all of the 300+ *.ocn.ne.jp subdomains indeed do use the same mail server at pop.ocn.ne.jp:995.  If there is an IMAP server available, that's even better!
- ocn.ad.jp is only used for the employees of OCN/NTT

Of course, if you are able to host an autoconfig entry on each domain, especially with it also available via https, that would be fantastic.

Comment 20

[Katsuhiro Sasagaki]

Hi, Andrew.

Thank you for your rapidly response and sending useful link.

Here are some confirmations:
- All of the *.ocn.ne.jp subdomains use the same mail server at pop.ocn.ne.jp:995/110.(We recommend using 995 for the users.) But IMAP server is not available at our services.
- ocn.ad.jp is only used for our employees, not for our customers, and we don't think it matters to this topic.

We're ready to prepare the autoconfig entries thought, we would like to do the test for one subdomain first.

Thank you,
Sasa.

Comment 22

[Andrew Sutherland [:asuth] (he/him)]

I've committed what I proposed in comment 17 (except without the typo for the SMTP server).

$ svn commit
Adding         ocn.ne.jp
Transmitting file data .
Committed revision 148685.

In about 20 minutes, this should go live.  If you could test creating an account and verify that it works, that would be very helpful.  Thank you!

Comment 23

[Katsuhiro Sasagaki]

Thanks a lot for your amazing works, Andrew.

We've tried to create some of new account on Thunderbird for testing the autoconfig, and finally it works well.

Tank you!!

Comment 24

[Andrew Sutherland [:asuth] (he/him)]

Glad to hear it works!  Thanks very much for your assistance!  Marking fixed.

Comment 25

[LeoG]

Those domains ocn.ne.jp, ocn.ad.jp are also the biggest spammer now. I get from 2-5 spam emails generated from those domains. I think firefox should block them until they clean up their act.