Last Comment Bug 733657 - Create separate curated feed containing only Mozilla-specific content
: Create separate curated feed containing only Mozilla-specific content
Status: NEW
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Product: Websites
Classification: Other
Component: planet.mozilla.org (show other bugs)
: unspecified
: All All
: -- normal with 5 votes (vote)
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Assigned To: Mike Hoye [:mhoye]
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Mentors:
Depends on:
Blocks:
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Reported: 2012-03-06 19:19 PST by Reed Loden [:reed] (use needinfo?)
Modified: 2015-05-19 12:55 PDT (History)
24 users (show)
See Also:
QA Whiteboard:
Iteration: ---
Points: ---


Attachments

Description Reed Loden [:reed] (use needinfo?) 2012-03-06 19:19:19 PST
Using a combination of automation, filters, and magic, we should be able to have a separate "curated" feed of posts that are only Mozilla-specific in nature.
Comment 1 Dave Townsend [:mossop] 2012-03-06 21:26:30 PST
Why do we need magic? People are generally pretty capable of providing you with both a mozilla feed and a full feed, indeed many already give you a mozilla only feed.
Comment 2 Reed Loden [:reed] (use needinfo?) 2012-03-06 21:37:37 PST
Not everybody provides (or has the ability to give) a Mozilla-only feed, which would require extra work on our part to ensure only Mozilla-related content was pulled from the feed.
Comment 3 Dave Townsend [:mossop] 2012-03-06 21:43:31 PST
(In reply to Reed Loden [:reed] (very busy) from comment #2)
> Not everybody provides (or has the ability to give) a Mozilla-only feed

Then they don't get to be in the mozilla-only planet (I find it hard to believe that more than a couple aren't using blogging software that makes this stuff dirt simple).

> which would require extra work on our part to ensure only Mozilla-related
> content was pulled from the feed.

What extra work?
Comment 4 Zibi Braniecki [:gandalf][:zibi] 2012-03-07 03:32:04 PST
automated filters are going to catch some false-positives. Setting a tag or a category in a blog is really easy these days. Why not focus on that?
Comment 5 Chris Lawson (gone) 2012-03-07 05:36:20 PST
For whatever it's worth, I fully support -- and have always supported -- the position Mossop takes in comment 3. The totally irrelevant content that's constantly cropping up was one of the major reasons I unsubscribed from the planet feeds in the first place. Way too much noise for the amount of signal.
Comment 6 Daniel Einspanjer [:dre] [:deinspanjer] 2012-03-07 08:41:05 PST
I am confused about the differences between this bug and bug bug 733655.

I believe that it will be a good thing to have bug 733655 as a more official channel for the project.

I believe it is useful to have some way to bring together the wider community and enable them to share content.

I wish that mechanism could include direct aggregation with optional categorization and filtering provided by the content creators.  That would mean that they could choose what content in their blog gets aggregated, and I would further be very happy if it were feasible for any tags that they used in their content to be propagated to the aggregated planet view such that people could subscribe to or view planet with the ability to filter based on those tags.

It seems that this is likely not acceptable to many people though, so a less favorable but still acceptable (to me) proposal would be to split our current planet into two distinct parts:

1. A "blogroll" that gives links to the blogs of community members who wish to signal their participation in the community, but does not directly aggregate any of that content to avoid any possible interpretation that the views on those blogs are in any way endorsed by the project itself.
2. A moderated aggregation that requres that all posts included in it are directly on topic to the goals and activities of the Mozilla project.  Any posts that are found to be in violation of that policy would be censored, for example posts with topics or content that make any reference to religion, politics, or recreation.

The moderated aggregation is less favorable to me because I think it would be difficult to maintain and it would eventually become so heavily censored/moderated that it would be of minimal value as a tool to help the community maintain personal and social ties.
Comment 7 Dave Townsend [:mossop] 2012-03-07 08:50:27 PST
(In reply to Zbigniew Braniecki [:gandalf] from comment #4)
> automated filters are going to catch some false-positives. Setting a tag or
> a category in a blog is really easy these days. Why not focus on that?

false-negatives too, both equally bad in one way or another.

(In reply to Daniel Einspanjer :dre [:deinspanjer] from comment #6)
> I am confused about the differences between this bug and bug bug 733655.

This bug is about having a feed for only mozilla-related content from anyone in the community. Bug 733655 is about a feed for official mozilla blogs only.
Comment 8 Jonas Sicking (:sicking) PTO Until July 5th 2012-03-07 11:21:00 PST
Yes, let's not let perfect stand in the way of good here. If people don't want to create a mozilla-only feed then that seems ok. Seems no different than the people who chose not to blog at all and thus aren't on the "everything" planet blog.

If the current strategy of using magic hasn't been executed for 5 years, I think it's time to switch to plan B.
Comment 9 Daniel Cater 2012-03-07 12:08:42 PST
For people who have blogs on p.m.o which aren't centralised around Mozilla then they usually have a planetmozilla tag or similar so that only posts which are likely to be of interest to p.m.o readers are syndicated. This might not all be Mozilla content though, for example there might be general technology posts, or "Dear Lazyweb" type things.

Therefore those people would need add a planetmozillaactuallymozilla tag as well as the planetmozilla tag. I don't think that's too much of a problem, just thought it worth mentioning.

An example would be:

http://talkweb.eu/openweb/1187

which has the "Mozilla" tag so that it shows up on p.m.o's feed for that tag: http://talkweb.eu/c/mozilla/feed but isn't actually /about/ Mozilla.

Similarly:

http://blog.finette.com/post/18796720617/pitch-101
http://oduinn.com/blog/2012/03/06/howto-use-an-unlocked-android-phone-in-hong-kong/

Personally, I won't use the "Planet (Strictly) Mozilla" feed because I like the non-Mozilla content.
Comment 10 Asa Dotzler [:asa] 2012-03-07 12:15:57 PST
There are many many feeds that are full, un-tagged an un-categorized feeds which are Mozilla-only content. It's not as simple as picking the tagged feeds and putting them into their own aggregator.
Comment 11 Dave Townsend [:mossop] 2012-03-07 12:31:58 PST
(In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #10)
> There are many many feeds that are full, un-tagged an un-categorized feeds
> which are Mozilla-only content. It's not as simple as picking the tagged
> feeds and putting them into their own aggregator.

It is as simple as asking everyone who doesn't already do so to provide a filtered feed. Yes, a small amount of manual work for those posting, but far faster and more reliable than anything automated you're going to come up with.
Comment 12 Asa Dotzler [:asa] 2012-03-07 12:54:05 PST
(In reply to Dave Townsend (:Mossop) from comment #11)
> (In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #10)
> > There are many many feeds that are full, un-tagged an un-categorized feeds
> > which are Mozilla-only content. It's not as simple as picking the tagged
> > feeds and putting them into their own aggregator.
> 
> It is as simple as asking everyone who doesn't already do so to provide a
> filtered feed. Yes, a small amount of manual work for those posting, but far
> faster and more reliable than anything automated you're going to come up
> with.

And I expect about a 20% response rate to that ask.
Comment 13 Dave Townsend [:mossop] 2012-03-07 13:00:02 PST
(In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #12)
> (In reply to Dave Townsend (:Mossop) from comment #11)
> > (In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #10)
> > > There are many many feeds that are full, un-tagged an un-categorized feeds
> > > which are Mozilla-only content. It's not as simple as picking the tagged
> > > feeds and putting them into their own aggregator.
> > 
> > It is as simple as asking everyone who doesn't already do so to provide a
> > filtered feed. Yes, a small amount of manual work for those posting, but far
> > faster and more reliable than anything automated you're going to come up
> > with.
> 
> And I expect about a 20% response rate to that ask.

Seems like a pretty good start to me.
Comment 14 Jonas Sicking (:sicking) PTO Until July 5th 2012-03-07 21:53:28 PST
Asa, if you have counter proposals then I think we're all ears. But it's clear that whatever the current strategy is it hasn't worked.
Comment 15 Asa Dotzler [:asa] 2012-03-07 22:33:31 PST
(In reply to Jonas Sicking (:sicking) from comment #14)
> Asa, if you have counter proposals then I think we're all ears. But it's
> clear that whatever the current strategy is it hasn't worked.

Jonas, you mistake me. I have no problem with creating a secondary feed of Mozilla-only content for those who cannot or do not want to engage with other Mozillians outside of work topics. I am the one who proposed that five years ago when we created the Module and I was made the first Module Owner. 

I am opposed to making that the default planet feed or to doing in such a way that it is overly restrictive or fails to well filter the intended content.
Comment 16 Jesse Ruderman 2012-03-07 22:54:03 PST
I think we should only filter feeds that aren't category feeds.  If the filter works well, great.  If authors find their posts aren't showing up on Planet, they'll get their feeds switched quickly enough.
Comment 17 Asa Dotzler [:asa] 2012-03-07 23:19:05 PST
(In reply to Jesse Ruderman from comment #16)
> I think we should only filter feeds that aren't category feeds.  If the
> filter works well, great.  If authors find their posts aren't showing up on
> Planet, they'll get their feeds switched quickly enough.

Jesse, how do you filter out "These are my own opinions and do not represent the views of Mozilla" if you're keying off the word "Mozilla"? Back when TOR did this he had to build up a sizable filter system and had to do a bunch of hand maintenance.
Comment 18 Al Billings [:abillings] 2012-03-07 23:28:51 PST
(In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #12)
> (In reply to Dave Townsend (:Mossop) from comment #11)
> > (In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #10)
> > > There are many many feeds that are full, un-tagged an un-categorized feeds
> > > which are Mozilla-only content. It's not as simple as picking the tagged
> > > feeds and putting them into their own aggregator.
> > 
> > It is as simple as asking everyone who doesn't already do so to provide a
> > filtered feed. Yes, a small amount of manual work for those posting, but far
> > faster and more reliable than anything automated you're going to come up
> > with.
> 
> And I expect about a 20% response rate to that ask.

Then they get removed. Sounds like an incentive to me to respond.
Comment 19 Al Billings [:abillings] 2012-03-07 23:31:38 PST
(In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #17)
> (In reply to Jesse Ruderman from comment #16)
> > I think we should only filter feeds that aren't category feeds.  If the
> > filter works well, great.  If authors find their posts aren't showing up on
> > Planet, they'll get their feeds switched quickly enough.
> 
> Jesse, how do you filter out "These are my own opinions and do not represent
> the views of Mozilla" if you're keying off the word "Mozilla"? Back when TOR
> did this he had to build up a sizable filter system and had to do a bunch of
> hand maintenance.

Asa, this is a simple and solved problem. People provide a mozilla specific feed from their blog (however they wish to produce it but almost all blogging software now supports it). Anything that they don't mark to go to this feed (be it tagging or otherwise) doesn't wind up in it.

Planet doesn't need to care. Planet just takes the feed that is given to it with the communicated proviso that it must be a Mozilla specific feed. Get people to solve their own problems on how to provide it. It is an extreme minority of bloggers who cannot solve this problem trivially. Heck, my current blog software doesn't support it yet I managed to make a valid xml feed to send to planet in five minutes (since I always used a category feed in the past).
Comment 20 Asa Dotzler [:asa] 2012-03-07 23:41:33 PST
(In reply to Al Billings [:abillings] from comment #19)
> (In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #17)
> > (In reply to Jesse Ruderman from comment #16)
> > > I think we should only filter feeds that aren't category feeds.  If the
> > > filter works well, great.  If authors find their posts aren't showing up on
> > > Planet, they'll get their feeds switched quickly enough.
> > 
> > Jesse, how do you filter out "These are my own opinions and do not represent
> > the views of Mozilla" if you're keying off the word "Mozilla"? Back when TOR
> > did this he had to build up a sizable filter system and had to do a bunch of
> > hand maintenance.
> 
> Asa, this is a simple and solved problem. People provide a mozilla specific
> feed from their blog (however they wish to produce it but almost all
> blogging software now supports it). Anything that they don't mark to go to
> this feed (be it tagging or otherwise) doesn't wind up in it.
> 
> Planet doesn't need to care. Planet just takes the feed that is given to it
> with the communicated proviso that it must be a Mozilla specific feed. Get
> people to solve their own problems on how to provide it. It is an extreme
> minority of bloggers who cannot solve this problem trivially. Heck, my
> current blog software doesn't support it yet I managed to make a valid xml
> feed to send to planet in five minutes (since I always used a category feed
> in the past).

You are capable, yes. A bunch of other Mozillians are not necessarily as technical. I think we should take self-filtered feeds, but for those who can't or won't (Dbaron says his platform doesn't support it) we should provide the service on Planet's end. 

In the mean time, Planet provides a convenient FOAF and OPML subscription list so you can easily build your own list excluding who ever you don't approve of. If you use the sweet feed reader in Thunderbird, you can even do client side filtering on the existing Planet feed. I'm happy to come to your desk and help you set that up if you need the help.
Comment 21 Robert Accettura [:raccettura] 2012-03-08 18:42:12 PST
(In reply to Asa Dotzler [:asa] from comment #20)
> 
> You are capable, yes. A bunch of other Mozillians are not necessarily as
> technical. I think we should take self-filtered feeds, but for those who
> can't or won't (Dbaron says his platform doesn't support it) we should
> provide the service on Planet's end. 
> 
> In the mean time, Planet provides a convenient FOAF and OPML subscription
> list so you can easily build your own list excluding who ever you don't
> approve of. If you use the sweet feed reader in Thunderbird, you can even do
> client side filtering on the existing Planet feed. I'm happy to come to your
> desk and help you set that up if you need the help.


Planet does support a regex (gerv and roc had this service for years).  If dbaron or anyone else want to help contribute to a good solid regex that would meet either his needs alone, or ideally a reusable one for anyone who wants that solution, I think that's reasonable.  A set of keywords that would cover common use cases, and perhaps a fallback tag ("#mozilla in the text or something)

I don't think we should impose it on anyone.  But if that's helpful to someone and they want it, I think we should be 100% willing to employ that to meet their needs.
Comment 22 Mike Hoye [:mhoye] 2014-05-20 14:13:46 PDT
Reviewing this, I think that having working search and some including some links to a few relevant searches - "mozilla + firefox", "mozilla + android", not many - plus a reasonable do-you-want-to-still-be-participating-in-planet audit would get us most of the way to where we want to be without the curation overhead. 

Without disabling any other subscription options, does that seem reasonable?

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