Closed Bug 99578 Opened 23 years ago Closed 22 years ago

Evangelism - translate evangelism letters to Hebrew

Categories

(Tech Evangelism Graveyard :: Hebrew, defect)

Product:
Tech Evangelism Graveyard
Component:
Hebrew
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
normal

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED FIXED

People

(Reporter: xslf, Assigned: bugzillamozilla)

References

(
URL
)

Details

Attachments

(4 files, 8 obsolete files)

Changes to the letter text, that eliminate gender bias
3.24 KB, application/rtf
Details
Evangelism letter - Hebrew (gender-free version; letter-he.css)
2.56 KB, application/x-zip-compressed
Details
Evangelism letter - HTML version
5.13 KB, text/html
Details
This is the correct short Hebrew letter version
1.02 KB, text/plain
Details
Looks like it is time to transalete to Hebrew. I guess I will do it, althugh I won't be that quick (will be going next week to france, hope to work on this in the middle of a bunch of other stuff)
Blocks: 86690
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
Are there any updates about this one? I hope you are not held back by the lack of a Hebrew reviewer. If this is the case, I'll be happy to step in and help.
No, we don't have any translation done so far. If you are willing please let me know. There are some overall changes I would like to make to the basic letters, so don't start until you correspond or speak to me. You can come to #evangelism on irc and we can talk about it.
Any progress about this? I would like to help, in case it's needed.
After the talk at: http://www.mozilla.org.il/board/viewtopic.php?p=619 Assigning to Prognathous@hotmail.com
Assignee: xslf → prognathous
Accepting. Let's continue the discussion in the mozilla.org.il thread... Prog.
Attached file Evangelism letter - Hebrew (obsolete) —
First draft. Open issues: * Singular vs. Plural use. Whom are we addressing, a team or an individual? * Hebrew vs. Latin transliteration. IMO, "JavaScript" doesn't look right transliterated to Hebrew. * Lack of several technical Hebrew terms (e.g. "The Web" is *not* the same as "The Internet".) * Less than stellar layout, especially when viewed with IE6. I'll let Shosh deal with that one... BTW, the mozilla.org.il forum seems buggy, perhaps we should go on in here after all. Is there any way to make Bugzilla display Hebrew characters without resorting to attachments? Prog.
The file looks all wonky in my Mozilla (see screen shot)- I guess I'll have to take a look at the code later. I didn't like all the English text in the middle of the Hebrew- I prefer transliteration most times when no translation is avalible. The mixture of English and Hebrew makes it messy. I didn't like the male language of the document, with that horrible note at the buttom- most cases can be written w/o gender. Regarding web- there is no word for "web" vs. "internet" in Hebrew. I usally use just "web site" vs. "the internet network" when I write in Hebrew. בקשר לעברית בבאגזילה- אין לי מושג אם זה עובד. נראה עכשיו. בכל מקרה, לא כל מי שקורא את זה יודע עברית...
Attached image Layout under Mozilla1.3b/Win32 (obsolete) —
> The file looks all wonky in my Mozilla (see screen shot)- I guess I'll have to > take a look at the code later. OMFG. I've never seen anything like it! Check out the attached screenshot to see the same page under Win32. > I didn't like all the English text in the middle of the Hebrew- I prefer > transliteration most times when no translation is avalible. The mixture of > English and Hebrew makes it messy. Perhaps it does make things messy, but transliterating common English terms into very-uncommon (or new) Hebrew ones is even worse. > I didn't like the male language of the document, with that horrible note at > the buttom- most cases can be written w/o gender. Agreed. > Regarding web- there is no word for "web" vs. "internet" in Hebrew. I usally > use just "web site" vs. "the internet network" when I write in Hebrew. Although not as precise as one would wish, "The Internet" should suffice IMO. > ב&#1511....... ? Prog.
See more comments and questions here: http://www.mozilla.org.il/board/viewtopic.php?p=670#670 Prog.
doron, your help in reviewing this would be appreciated as well.
the english and polish versions of the tech-letter-xx.html have been checked in. What is the status of this translation? Has it been reviewed?
Unfortunately, no substantial review has been made, at least not one which offers alternative suggestions. I did ask for additional comments, but it seems that some translation issues are not easy to solve, hence the lack of input. Here are the main points: * Should we translate technical English terms that do not have common Hebrew equivalents? Typical examples being CSS and plug-ins. * Should we transliterate English names to Hebrew or leave them in English? In my opinion, most webmasters are more likely to have encountered "Gecko" written using in English characters - even within Hebrew texts. * How does one translate terms like JavaScript, DHTML, Venkman, DOM, DevEdge, Sidebars and Debugger? is there any sense transliterating them? for the sake of readability, I believe that we should keep all of these terms in English, even if esoteric Hebrew terms exist. * We definitely should aspire to write without gender, but in some cases this is unavoidable. "Dear webmaster" is such a case. Using plural as a way to bypass the gender issue just sounds unnatural, while being inconsistent and opting to mix genders randomly is even worse (I know Shosh disagrees with me on that one). This above is based on a list of issues that I previously laid out in the Israeli Mozilla forum. http://www.mozilla.org.il/board/viewtopic.php?t=103&start=15 Prog.
i think the "custumize" parts should be translated to hebrew. there is no point leaving them in english, except maybe for the bug ID number. i also reccomend using the <BDO dir="rtl"> tag where needed, to overcome errors created by the BiDi algorithm, such as writing the combination "4.x" the right way. put inside a <bdo dir="ltr"> </bdo> it looks correct. it also helps in seperating acronims from their meaning in brackets, such as the combination "World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)". ading a <bdo> tag around the space before the acronime will ensure correct text flow. e.g. World Wide Web Consortium <bdo dir="rtl"> </bdo> (W3C) lists seperated with comma can also be seperated with <bdo dir=rtl> over the space, to maintain correct text flow. notice that IE treats this tag a bit differently from Gecko. you might also consider aligning the link to the bug to the right, and giving it a LTR direction.
Thanks for the technical tips, Tsahi. We should integrate your suggestions into the page together with fixing the layout issues mentioned in Comment #7 (Shosh, have you found the cause?) Now- do you have any comments regarding the text itself? any *specific* suggestions? Prog.
Ok, this is just my uninformed opinion but: > * Should we translate technical English terms that do not have common Hebrew > equivalents? Typical examples being CSS and plug-ins. No. > * Should we transliterate English names to Hebrew or leave them in English? In > my opinion, most webmasters are more likely to have encountered "Gecko" > written using in English characters - even within Hebrew texts. No for something like Gecko. > * How does one translate terms like JavaScript, DHTML, Venkman, DOM, DevEdge, > Sidebars and Debugger? is there any sense transliterating them? for the sake > of readability, I believe that we should keep all of these terms in English, > even if esoteric Hebrew terms exist. Was it the general usage ? Is JavaScript translated? If not, then the other shouldn't be either.
> Was it the general usage ? Is JavaScript translated? There are several online JavaScript guides in Hebrew and at least two books about the subject. They all keep the word "JavaScript" in English, and I don't think that this choice disturbs many of the readers, quite the contrary. You could also search Hebrew websites for the term. The result would show that almost everyone keeps the word English, and only few use one of various Hebrew transliterations. Prog.
it appears like you added some connecting words and "he hayedia" to correct the text flow. so adding the <bdo> tag will allow you to remove them and be more loyal to the original text. you should also correct the underlines created by minus signs, to match the length of the hebrew headers. hebrew is usually about 30% shorter than english.
Ok, draft #2 takes into account some of the suggestions. I also hacked the CSS a bit, and now the letter looks much better on both platforms. I briefly tested it with IE6 and Mozilla 1.3 on Win2k, and with Safari b62, Camino 0.7 and Mozilla 1.3 on OS X and only found some relatively minor problems on the Mac (Shosh could you please look into this?) There are still several open issues: * If we keep using monospace font (why?), I suggest that we specify Courier New as I did in this CSS file. The default font for IE6 is Miriam Fixed and it doesn't properly support the Maqaf punctuation mark. * For consistency, the text is still written with male gender. Don't get me wrong, I'm hardly enthusiastic about this myself, but until someone else steps in and rephrases things better, I'm afraid that this is a compromise that we have to make. There *are* quite a few places where we can be gender-free, but should we waive consistency? * I tried to by as loyal as possible to the original text, but in some cases the result is a bit cumbersome (typical example being the Gecko detection section). This could easily be solved by using a more loose translation, but one that still keeps the original content and meaning intact. * Using <bdo dir="ltr"> in an rtl paragraph seems buggy in 1.3, especially when English comma separated lists are involved. I'll have to test this more thoroughly (and search bugzilla...) before submitting a new bug. This is why I only made partial use of this tag. Prog.
Attachment #111945 - Attachment is obsolete: true
regarding comma-seperated lists: a code like HTML, <bdo dir="rtl"> </bdo> CSS (you might need to play with the spaces here) will resemble a hebrew letter between the "HTML" and the "CSS", and ensure the correct placement of the comma and the correct flow of text. test this on IE too. i tried it on earlier versions of moz than 1.3, and didn't have significant problems. you also have an extra line between the "W3C technical reccomendations" header and the "minus" line under it. i think there suould also be a link to the page on mozdev with the sidebars. this is possibly a bug in the original english letter.
Fixed the letter according to Tsahi's suggestions. Anything else? Prog.
Attachment #118402 - Attachment is obsolete: true
there is also a missing link at the Gecko DOM documentation. devedge went trough major reconstruction recently, to make it comply with the standards, so it's worth checking if all the links are correct. other than that, the text looks fine.
Attached file Evangelism letter - Hebrew (#4) (obsolete) —
All the links are up to date. For some reason, the part about "The Document Object Model in Mozilla" didn't match the original text (was it recently updated?). Anyway, this is now fixed. Prog.
Attachment #118441 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Looks decent in my nightly Camino, but I still don't like the Male languages. What about the opening I am attching? (as bugzilla does not support inline Hebrew)
Attachment #111948 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Attachment #111952 - Attachment is obsolete: true
It's a reasonable opening, but unfortunately the original meaning is lost. "To the owners of the website" is not the same as "Dear Webmaster". In fact, you are addressing a completely different person, one who is more likely to be non-technical. As a side note, if this (rather significant) change is acceptable, then I would definitely like to rephrase many other parts of the text, parts that sound a bit clumsy in Hebrew. Bob, what is your stance about this issue? should readability and natural style be sacrificed for *exact* loyalty with the original text? Prog.
Some comments about the rest of your suggestions: Using "Inserting a technical description is required" instead of "Insert a technical description" is an option, but it sounds like hokey pharmacy talk IMO. The same with "It is recommended to visit mozilla.org's Web Developer site" instead of "Visit mozilla.org's Web Developer site". The only way out of this could be to use plural form, but it would still look bad in some parts, especially in the opening: "Dear Webmasters" Personally, I don't like this one bit. Prog.
Re Comment #26: * In general, IMHO, this letter suffers too much of "Hebrish"- it is transalted too closely to the literal meaning of the English words. * Even using "site building" and not "webmaster" loses meaning, as the webmaster many times is the person who administrators the server, not the person who coded the site. Therefore, IMNSHO, my version is not too far from the origianl, while keeping the formality of the original ("Dear xxx" is a pretty formal opening). * If you want to re-phrse the whole letter, go ahead as far as I am concereed. * Do you have a better idea of phrasing that keeps it gender neutral? --- Shoshannah, who manages a few web sites, and is sick and tired of emails addressed to her position but apprently not to her, if to judge by the language. BTW, emails like that are mentally flagged a "mass email", and thus I pay less attention to them.
"*exact* loyalty" to the english text is not required. Each language/culture has it's own methods of communicating and I believe you should feel free to express the ideas and information in a fashion which is best suited to the particular audience. I do believe that a natural letter which the native reader knows is not a poor translation will have much more effect than a "stilted" one which tries to follow the english text too closely. So, keep the information the same but tailor to your audience.
Yet another draft. Less "Hebrish" and no gender-bias (as far as I can see). Prog.
you said that you changed the css file, so you may need to change its name to letter-he.css.
Done. Anything else? Prog.
Attachment #118899 - Attachment is obsolete: true
is this going to be checked in sometime?
Attachment #118490 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Ok, I will do it if everyone is happy with the current version.
I believe that Tsahi, Shosh and I are all content with this version -> http://mozilla.org.il/board/viewtopic.php?t=103&start=15 There were some concerns about the naming of new components, but this is more of a general evangelism issue, not something that we should deal with in this bug. Prog.
checked in as http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tech-evangelism/site/letters/tech-letter-he.html, added to NOWRAP and added a link from http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tech-evangelism/site/letters/ Should be available in an hour or so, please confirm and mark this fixed if you are happy.
Under Gecko-based browsers as well as IE6, The letter is accessible, legible and (hopefully) comprehensible ;-) I'm happy with it. Resolving as Fixed. Prog.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 22 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Same as the last version, except that this one uses inline-CSS and hyperlinks instead of URLs. Usefull for those (like myself) who prefer HTML-based emails as means to avoid directionality issues. Plain text emails are too much of a hassle when using Hebrew. Prog.
Component: Middle Eastern → Hebrew
I have found myself using a shorter version of the Hebrew evang letter. I am attaching a copy in case anyone is intrested.
Attached file Short Hebrew letter (obsolete) —
Attachment #125456 - Attachment is obsolete: true
please read my Comment #6 in bug #99578 The phrase that really got to him was "these next generation browsers"- he claimed that that is a judgmental line, and we should avoid it. in general he said that the letter is "mitnase" (patronalistic). He also complained about lack of identification of who the sender of the letter actaully is. Althugh in general he was not very co-opertive, he might have a point- We stuck pretty much to the english version, which might come thrugh as patronalistic in Hebrew. What do you think?
opps- should be comment #6 bug #160832
> The phrase that really got to him was "these next generation browsers"- he > claimed that that is a judgmental line, and we should avoid it. It is nothing more than a fair description of the truth. IE6 standards support hasn't been updated for years. Gecko, on the other hand, has surpassed it in this regard and is *constantly* being updated. > in general he said that the letter is "mitnase" (patronalistic). Just to make sure, I went and read both the short and the full version twice, and I'm now convinced that neither of these letters is patronizing at all. > He also complained about lack of identification of who the sender of the > letter actaully is. That's a good point. Do we have any strict policy about it? > Althugh in general he was not very co-opertive, he might have a point- We > stuck pretty much to the english version, which might come thrugh as > patronalistic in Hebrew. I believe we've got ridden of most "Hebrish" in one of the last drafts. I certainly don't think that we should "sachbakize" it any further. The way I see it, this letter is meant to provide an official, non-colloquial, constructive help. If people find that patronizing, they are probably the kind that won't cooperate, regardless of the way it's phrased. Prog.
MS increased their support of W3C standards with IE6, and to my understanding, it is better than with IE5. however, that's almost all of the improvements they added in the last 5 years, since IE4 was released, other than print preview and P3P support. and if he couldn't figure out who sent it, maybe he didn't read it to the end. i don't think it appears like coming from mozilla.org. maybe we can add a disclaimer at the end, like "the writer of this message is not representing mozilla.org".
The short version of the letter should be added to the Hebrew component homepage: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tech-evangelism/site/component-hebrew.html In addition, you can count me in under Volunteers. Thanks, Prog.
Prog. I have added this to my local tree but don't have time to check it in until this evening. This is a text file and may now display properly in all browsers. We may want to change it to and HTML format like the other letters but that can wait.
Product: Tech Evangelism → Tech Evangelism Graveyard
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