Looks like it is time to transalete to Hebrew. I guess I will do it, althugh I
won't be that quick (will be going next week to france, hope to work on this in
the middle of a bunch of other stuff)
Are there any updates about this one? I hope you are not held back by the lack of a Hebrew reviewer. If this is the case, I'll be happy to step in and help.
No, we don't have any translation done so far. If you are willing please let me
know. There are some overall changes I would like to make to the basic letters,
so don't start until you correspond or speak to me. You can come to #evangelism
on irc and we can talk about it.
Any progress about this? I would like to help, in case it's needed.
After the talk at: http://www.mozilla.org.il/board/viewtopic.php?p=619 Assigning to Prognathous@hotmail.com
Let's continue the discussion in the mozilla.org.il thread...
Created attachment 111945 [details]
Evangelism letter - Hebrew
* Singular vs. Plural use. Whom are we addressing, a team or an individual?
transliterated to Hebrew.
* Lack of several technical Hebrew terms (e.g. "The Web" is *not* the same as
* Less than stellar layout, especially when viewed with IE6. I'll let Shosh
deal with that one...
BTW, the mozilla.org.il forum seems buggy, perhaps we should go on in here
after all. Is there any way to make Bugzilla display Hebrew characters without
resorting to attachments?
The file looks all wonky in my Mozilla (see screen shot)- I guess I'll have to
take a look at the code later.
I didn't like all the English text in the middle of the Hebrew- I prefer
transliteration most times when no translation is avalible. The mixture of
English and Hebrew makes it messy.
I didn't like the male language of the document, with that horrible note at the
buttom- most cases can be written w/o gender.
Regarding web- there is no word for "web" vs. "internet" in Hebrew. I usally use
just "web site" vs. "the internet network" when I write in Hebrew.
בקשר לעברית בבאגזילה- אין לי מושג אם זה עובד. נראה עכשיו. בכל מקרה, לא כל מי
שקורא את זה יודע עברית...
Created attachment 111948 [details]
The letter in my Mozilla- terribly broken
Created attachment 111952 [details]
Layout under Mozilla1.3b/Win32
> The file looks all wonky in my Mozilla (see screen shot)- I guess I'll have
> take a look at the code later.
OMFG. I've never seen anything like it! Check out the attached screenshot to
see the same page under Win32.
> I didn't like all the English text in the middle of the Hebrew- I prefer
> transliteration most times when no translation is avalible. The mixture of
> English and Hebrew makes it messy.
Perhaps it does make things messy, but transliterating common English terms
into very-uncommon (or new) Hebrew ones is even worse.
> I didn't like the male language of the document, with that horrible note at
> the buttom- most cases can be written w/o gender.
> Regarding web- there is no word for "web" vs. "internet" in Hebrew. I usally
> use just "web site" vs. "the internet network" when I write in Hebrew.
Although not as precise as one would wish, "The Internet" should suffice IMO.
See more comments and questions here:
doron, your help in reviewing this would be appreciated as well.
the english and polish versions of the tech-letter-xx.html have been checked in.
What is the status of this translation? Has it been reviewed?
Unfortunately, no substantial review has been made, at least not one which
offers alternative suggestions.
I did ask for additional comments, but it seems that some translation issues
are not easy to solve, hence the lack of input.
Here are the main points:
* Should we translate technical English terms that do not have common Hebrew
equivalents? Typical examples being CSS and plug-ins.
* Should we transliterate English names to Hebrew or leave them in English? In
my opinion, most webmasters are more likely to have encountered "Gecko" written
using in English characters - even within Hebrew texts.
Sidebars and Debugger? is there any sense transliterating them? for the sake of
readability, I believe that we should keep all of these terms in English, even
if esoteric Hebrew terms exist.
* We definitely should aspire to write without gender, but in some cases this
is unavoidable. "Dear webmaster" is such a case. Using plural as a way to
bypass the gender issue just sounds unnatural, while being inconsistent and
opting to mix genders randomly is even worse (I know Shosh disagrees with me on
This above is based on a list of issues that I previously laid out in the
Israeli Mozilla forum.
i think the "custumize" parts should be translated to hebrew. there is no point
leaving them in english, except maybe for the bug ID number.
i also reccomend using the <BDO dir="rtl"> tag where needed, to overcome errors
created by the BiDi algorithm, such as writing the combination "4.x" the right
way. put inside a <bdo dir="ltr"> </bdo> it looks correct. it also helps in
seperating acronims from their meaning in brackets, such as the combination
"World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)". ading a <bdo> tag around the space before the
acronime will ensure correct text flow. e.g.
World Wide Web Consortium <bdo dir="rtl"> </bdo> (W3C)
lists seperated with comma can also be seperated with <bdo dir=rtl> over the
space, to maintain correct text flow.
notice that IE treats this tag a bit differently from Gecko.
you might also consider aligning the link to the bug to the right, and giving it
a LTR direction.
Thanks for the technical tips, Tsahi. We should integrate your suggestions into
the page together with fixing the layout issues mentioned in Comment #7 (Shosh,
have you found the cause?)
Now- do you have any comments regarding the text itself? any *specific*
Ok, this is just my uninformed opinion but:
> * Should we translate technical English terms that do not have common Hebrew
> equivalents? Typical examples being CSS and plug-ins.
> * Should we transliterate English names to Hebrew or leave them in English? In
> my opinion, most webmasters are more likely to have encountered "Gecko"
> written using in English characters - even within Hebrew texts.
No for something like Gecko.
> Sidebars and Debugger? is there any sense transliterating them? for the sake
> of readability, I believe that we should keep all of these terms in English,
> even if esoteric Hebrew terms exist.
shouldn't be either.
think that this choice disturbs many of the readers, quite the contrary.
You could also search Hebrew websites for the term. The result would show that
almost everyone keeps the word English, and only few use one of various Hebrew
it appears like you added some connecting words and "he hayedia" to correct the
text flow. so adding the <bdo> tag will allow you to remove them and be more
loyal to the original text.
you should also correct the underlines created by minus signs, to match the
length of the hebrew headers. hebrew is usually about 30% shorter than english.
Created attachment 118402 [details]
Evangelism letter - Hebrew (second draft)
Ok, draft #2 takes into account some of the suggestions. I also hacked the CSS
a bit, and now the letter looks much better on both platforms. I briefly tested
it with IE6 and Mozilla 1.3 on Win2k, and with Safari b62, Camino 0.7 and
Mozilla 1.3 on OS X and only found some relatively minor problems on the Mac
(Shosh could you please look into this?)
There are still several open issues:
* If we keep using monospace font (why?), I suggest that we specify Courier New
as I did in this CSS file. The default font for IE6 is Miriam Fixed and it
doesn't properly support the Maqaf punctuation mark.
* For consistency, the text is still written with male gender. Don't get me
wrong, I'm hardly enthusiastic about this myself, but until someone else steps
in and rephrases things better, I'm afraid that this is a compromise that we
have to make. There *are* quite a few places where we can be gender-free, but
should we waive consistency?
* I tried to by as loyal as possible to the original text, but in some cases
the result is a bit cumbersome (typical example being the Gecko detection
section). This could easily be solved by using a more loose translation, but
one that still keeps the original content and meaning intact.
* Using <bdo dir="ltr"> in an rtl paragraph seems buggy in 1.3, especially when
English comma separated lists are involved. I'll have to test this more
thoroughly (and search bugzilla...) before submitting a new bug. This is why I
only made partial use of this tag.
regarding comma-seperated lists: a code like
HTML, <bdo dir="rtl"> </bdo> CSS
(you might need to play with the spaces here) will resemble a hebrew letter
between the "HTML" and the "CSS", and ensure the correct placement of the comma
and the correct flow of text. test this on IE too. i tried it on earlier
versions of moz than 1.3, and didn't have significant problems.
you also have an extra line between the "W3C technical reccomendations" header
and the "minus" line under it.
i think there suould also be a link to the page on mozdev with the sidebars.
this is possibly a bug in the original english letter.
Created attachment 118441 [details]
Evangelism letter - Hebrew (third draft)
Fixed the letter according to Tsahi's suggestions. Anything else?
there is also a missing link at the Gecko DOM documentation.
devedge went trough major reconstruction recently, to make it comply with the
standards, so it's worth checking if all the links are correct.
other than that, the text looks fine.
Created attachment 118490 [details]
Evangelism letter - Hebrew (#4)
All the links are up to date.
For some reason, the part about "The Document Object Model in Mozilla" didn't
match the original text (was it recently updated?). Anyway, this is now fixed.
Looks decent in my nightly Camino, but I still don't like the Male languages.
What about the opening I am attching? (as bugzilla does not support inline Hebrew)
Created attachment 118673 [details]
Changes to the letter text, that eliminate gender bias
It's a reasonable opening, but unfortunately the original meaning is lost.
"To the owners of the website" is not the same as "Dear Webmaster". In fact,
you are addressing a completely different person, one who is more likely to be
As a side note, if this (rather significant) change is acceptable, then I would
definitely like to rephrase many other parts of the text, parts that sound a
bit clumsy in Hebrew.
Bob, what is your stance about this issue? should readability and natural style
be sacrificed for *exact* loyalty with the original text?
Some comments about the rest of your suggestions:
Using "Inserting a technical description is required" instead of "Insert a
technical description" is an option, but it sounds like hokey pharmacy talk
IMO. The same with "It is recommended to visit mozilla.org's Web Developer
site" instead of "Visit mozilla.org's Web Developer site".
The only way out of this could be to use plural form, but it would still look
bad in some parts, especially in the opening: "Dear Webmasters"
Personally, I don't like this one bit.
Re Comment #26:
* In general, IMHO, this letter suffers too much of "Hebrish"- it is transalted
too closely to the literal meaning of the English words.
* Even using "site building" and not "webmaster" loses meaning, as the webmaster
many times is the person who administrators the server, not the person who coded
the site. Therefore, IMNSHO, my version is not too far from the origianl, while
keeping the formality of the original ("Dear xxx" is a pretty formal opening).
* If you want to re-phrse the whole letter, go ahead as far as I am concereed.
* Do you have a better idea of phrasing that keeps it gender neutral?
Shoshannah, who manages a few web sites, and is sick and tired of emails
addressed to her position but apprently not to her, if to judge by the language.
BTW, emails like that are mentally flagged a "mass email", and thus I pay less
attention to them.
"*exact* loyalty" to the english text is not required. Each language/culture has
it's own methods of communicating and I believe you should feel free to express
the ideas and information in a fashion which is best suited to the particular
I do believe that a natural letter which the native reader knows is not a poor
translation will have much more effect than a "stilted" one which tries to
follow the english text too closely.
So, keep the information the same but tailor to your audience.
Created attachment 118899 [details]
Evangelism letter - Hebrew (gender-free version)
Yet another draft.
Less "Hebrish" and no gender-bias (as far as I can see).
you said that you changed the css file, so you may need to change its name to
Created attachment 118935 [details]
Evangelism letter - Hebrew (gender-free version; letter-he.css)
Done. Anything else?
is this going to be checked in sometime?
Ok, I will do it if everyone is happy with the current version.
I believe that Tsahi, Shosh and I are all content with this version ->
There were some concerns about the naming of new components, but this is more of
a general evangelism issue, not something that we should deal with in this bug.
checked in as
added to NOWRAP and added a link from
Should be available in an hour or so, please confirm and mark this fixed if you
Under Gecko-based browsers as well as IE6, The letter is accessible, legible and
(hopefully) comprehensible ;-)
I'm happy with it. Resolving as Fixed.
Created attachment 125090 [details]
Evangelism letter - HTML version
Same as the last version, except that this one uses inline-CSS and hyperlinks
instead of URLs.
Usefull for those (like myself) who prefer HTML-based emails as means to avoid
directionality issues. Plain text emails are too much of a hassle when using
I have found myself using a shorter version of the Hebrew evang letter. I am
attaching a copy in case anyone is intrested.
Created attachment 125456 [details]
Short Hebrew letter
Created attachment 125457 [details]
This is the correct short Hebrew letter version
please read my Comment #6 in bug #99578
The phrase that really got to him was "these next generation browsers"- he
claimed that that is a judgmental line, and we should avoid it. in general he
said that the letter is "mitnase" (patronalistic).
He also complained about lack of identification of who the sender of the letter
Althugh in general he was not very co-opertive, he might have a point- We stuck
pretty much to the english version, which might come thrugh as patronalistic in
What do you think?
opps- should be comment #6 bug #160832
> The phrase that really got to him was "these next generation browsers"- he
> claimed that that is a judgmental line, and we should avoid it.
It is nothing more than a fair description of the truth. IE6 standards support
hasn't been updated for years. Gecko, on the other hand, has surpassed it in
this regard and is *constantly* being updated.
> in general he said that the letter is "mitnase" (patronalistic).
Just to make sure, I went and read both the short and the full version twice,
and I'm now convinced that neither of these letters is patronizing at all.
> He also complained about lack of identification of who the sender of the
> letter actaully is.
That's a good point. Do we have any strict policy about it?
> Althugh in general he was not very co-opertive, he might have a point- We
> stuck pretty much to the english version, which might come thrugh as
> patronalistic in Hebrew.
I believe we've got ridden of most "Hebrish" in one of the last drafts. I
certainly don't think that we should "sachbakize" it any further. The way I see
it, this letter is meant to provide an official, non-colloquial, constructive
help. If people find that patronizing, they are probably the kind that won't
cooperate, regardless of the way it's phrased.
bug 160832 comment 6
MS increased their support of W3C standards with IE6, and to my understanding,
it is better than with IE5. however, that's almost all of the improvements they
added in the last 5 years, since IE4 was released, other than print preview and
and if he couldn't figure out who sent it, maybe he didn't read it to the end. i
don't think it appears like coming from mozilla.org. maybe we can add a
disclaimer at the end, like "the writer of this message is not representing
The short version of the letter should be added to the Hebrew component homepage:
In addition, you can count me in under Volunteers.
Prog. I have added this to my local tree but don't have time to check it in
until this evening. This is a text file and may now display properly in all
browsers. We may want to change it to and HTML format like the other letters but
that can wait.