1238176 - SUMO landing page for "Help" could be for better

Status: RESOLVED INVALID

(Thunderbird :: Help Documentation, defect)

Description

[u328884]

User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.7) Gecko/20150929 Firefox/31.9 PaleMoon/25.7.2
Build ID: 20150929234510

Steps to reproduce:

Clicked 'Help' > "Help Contents'


Actual results:

Page that opened:
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/thunderbird
has no links to assist with learning/understanding normal operation of the program.


Expected results:

There should be links to how to use TBird. There are none. For example: There's no help with what the parts of the UI do; there's no help with keyboard shortcuts; etc.

All these things exist, they're just not reachable from 'Help'.

Comment 1

[u328884]

"Tips & Tricks" !! That's where keyboard shortcuts are.

Bad name: "Tips & Tricks". How about "How to use Thunderbird"?

..."Tips & Tricks" indeed. Ouch!

Comment 2

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

tonnes, 
I can see why the titles under "Help Topics" are kept short and sweet.
I suspect Roland and others considered possibilities other "Tips & Tricks".
And it's pretty clear to me they placed it first for obvious reasons. 

That said, do you think "Tips & Tricks for using Thunderbird" is too long?  
Or maybe "Tips & Tricks for beginners"?
And how do we go about changing it 

Also, https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/thunderbird/tips-and-tricks seems a bit sparse.
What other items should we add to this menu?  Perhaps based on usage data.

Comment 3

[Ton [:Tonnes]]

Well, for renaming, "Tips & Tricks for using Thunderbird" seems kind of superfluous since it’s obvious this Help section is entirely about Thunderbird. Note that "Firefox" isn’t mentioned in the comparable main Help section for Firefox either, which may be part of its style guide rules.
"Tips & Tricks for use" may do, but it seems obvious they apply to using TB, don’t you think?
I wouldn’t use "Tips & Tricks for beginners" either since everyone benefits from these articles, even long-time and experienced users - especially the shortcuts articles.
I would not consider "How to use Thunderbird" to be a suitable name for the section either, but it might be for a new article, compared to "Get started with Firefox" - https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/get-started-firefox-overview-main-features.

Looking closer at the latter, it seems that (unlike Firefox) there is no "general" section listing "common" articles as in "Basic browsing", nor a comparable "Get started with Thunderbird" article that would probably become part of it. When looking closer, both FF and TB currently have 8 main sections (preferably to be kept at that number), while there’s a separate "Tips & Tricks" subsection for Firefox under the "Basic browsing" section.

Therefore it might be an idea to change TB’s "Tips & Tricks" main section to something like "Email basics" ("Basic emailing" doesn’t sound well to me), move the current "Tips & tricks" section and its contents there, and categorize other relevant articles into the Basics section. Additionally, a new article summarizing TB’s basic features could be created, which may be quite a job.

For the sparsity of the current "Tips & Tricks" section, that’s just a matter of categorizing the suitable articles. Not sure if usage data should be a real measure for it, do you?
If you referred to the process or who to contact for changing all this, I’m not exactly sure at this time but we should be able to find out. For the record: I’m not a content manager for TB. ;)

Regarding the purpose of this bug: Mark, would you rather like to see a fully written manual / user guide, or would you say the above covers it? From historical perspective I’m not sure if an entire "manual" will ever be useful for TB, nor if that - or even such new article - will serve many users. Reading "All these things exist, they’re not reachable from 'Help'" however, I understand it’s clear to you that similar to Firefox, the sections/categories and using Search are the primary way of quickly finding the proper article(s). Do you have another way for improvements in mind, preferably in a way the TB section would not become different compared to Firefox’s?

Comment 4

[u328884]

(In reply to Wayne Mery (:wsmwk, use Needinfo for questions) from comment #2)
> tonnes, 
> I can see why the titles under "Help Topics" are kept short and sweet.
> I suspect Roland and others considered possibilities other "Tips & Tricks".
> And it's pretty clear to me they placed it first for obvious reasons.

Well, a section titled "Tips & Tricks" gives the strong impression that the section 

Here are the topics under "Tips & Tricks".
Open Search
Keyboard Shortcuts TB
Thunderbird Accessibility Features
Thunderbird and Logjam
Keyboard Shortcuts for Searching

Where is "How To Use Thunderbird"?
Where is "Description Of The User Interface"?
Where is "How To Configure Thunderbird"?
Where is "About Profiles"?
Where is "Using Filters"?
Where is "How To Solve Problems"?
Where is "Special Functions"?
et cetera.

> That said, do you think "Tips & Tricks for using Thunderbird" is too long?  
> Or maybe "Tips & Tricks for beginners"?

Or maybe "Roasting hotdogs and buns over an open campfire"? It would be just as informative and would at least provide some nourishment. :-)

> And how do we go about changing it 
> 
> Also, https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/thunderbird/tips-and-tricks
> seems a bit sparse.
> What other items should we add to this menu?  Perhaps based on usage data.

Comment 5

[u328884]

(In reply to Ton from comment #3)

> Regarding the purpose of this bug: Mark, would you rather like to see a
> fully written manual / user guide, or would you say the above covers it?
> From historical perspective I’m not sure if an entire "manual" will ever be
> useful for TB, nor if that - or even such new article - will serve many
> users. Reading "All these things exist, they’re not reachable from 'Help'"
> however, I understand it’s clear to you that similar to Firefox, the
> sections/categories and using Search are the primary way of quickly finding
> the proper article(s). Do you have another way for improvements in mind,
> preferably in a way the TB section would not become different compared to
> Firefox’s?

I don't understand what help for tbird has to do with help for ffox. How is an email client/news reader like a web browser? They are about as different from one another as two programs can get.

Yes, the primary way that people attempt to get help is 'Help' | 'Help Contents'. It is the best way to control how people approach tbird. A good help system will preclude them using google to find help -- the pages found that way are ad hoc and often wrong and/or out of date.

I'm very heartened to see you guys are taking this seriously.

Documenting an application is just as important as loading it with useful features because no matter how wonderful those features, people will use them only if they understand them and feel safe using them.

Let me know if you'd like me to get involved further. I have written a large number of manuals and project proposals for general audiences. But I will not get involved without a clear indication that the product of my work, if deemed adequate, would actually be used.

Comment 6

[Matt]

There has long been a determination from Mozilla that a manual will not be provided.  For any of their products.  Personally I do not agree with this position.  Given the demographic of our users (I have no figures but I think it is mostly over 40 and perhaps even over 50) outside of business users.  They are the sort that would actually read a manual.

When I first came to the project, it was made clear to me that as close to a manual as they were prepared to have was the floss manual.  Something which has never really taken off or been maintained.
http://en.flossmanuals.net/Thunderbird/

I think this bug is about what the Thunderbird project want to do in that space, as we are no longer bound by the strictures of what Mozilla wants.  But in tackling such a project,  who is going to maintain it.  The road to open source is littered with failed manuals and worse still unmaintained ones.  I would love to have a well documented manual for the product,  rather than a collection of how to articles, but we need to be sure we do not get to ambitious and keep in mind that we really will need three,  one for each operating system.

Comment 7

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Personally, I'm not overly disappointed with past "mozilla" efforts - they've focused their paid efforts on product, and fostered volunteer efforts toward documenation. I think that was the right focus of resources. If there is insufficient documentation it's not because Mozilla discouraged volunteers. 
Though I will say, that Mozilla's philosophy has been to not link to articles outside of SUMO. I think that has hurt us. The floss manual is one example.  We can fix that.

Secondly, SUMO is not meant to be a manual. It is pretty much task oriented. But I suspect much of you want in the way of a manual is in floss, for example http://en.flossmanuals.net/thunderbird/interface/  
Plus, we are probably due for a makeover.

Third, it's great when someone is interested in stepping up to improve Thunderbird documentation. But  tossing past efforts like floss (for which in theory we have volunteers that we might again enlist to do a revision) or SUMO (for which we have localizers that a static manual certainly will not) isn't likely to give us a better result. Plus whatever is improved or created must be sustantained, and one person just isn't going cut it unless that person brings a set of volunteers to sustatin it.

So my recommendation is improve what we've got.

Comment 8

[u328884]

Well, I don't know what floss is, and I don't know what SUMO is, but when someone needs help and they click 'Help' | 'Help Contents' they get a bunch of **** junk that makes TBird look like an grossly amateur operation.

See ya.

Comment 9

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

(In reply to Mark Filipak from comment #8)
> Well, I don't know what floss is, and I don't know what SUMO is, 

Seems then you that your desire to be involved will also involve some reading. :) We'd welcome your help.
floss link was cited above. 
SUMO is simply the acronym which referrs collectly to the support infrastrucure and the support website support.mozilla.org. There is an editor and many other tools.

Comment 10

[u328884]

Wayne,

I'm confused. You and Ton and Matt have pretty much discouraged me. It sure seems that any involvement would be a waste of my time. Now you write "We'd welcome your help". I don't know how to interpret what to me are such mixed messages.

Cheers.

Comment 11

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

simply "my recommendation is improve what we've got." sums it up - namely improve SUMO and the floss manual.

But the help component of bugzilla is only for in-product help. So the discussion should move to https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/tb-support-crew and/or tb-support-crew on IRC

Comment 12

[u328884]

I'm sorry, Wayne. I don't know what in-product help is. I don't know what SUMO is or floss and I don't care. I know you explained those to me. Your explanations don't explain.

I write that when a user clicks 'Help' | 'Help Contents', he/she expects to get help. If that's not in-product help, then I don't know what in-product help is. There essentially is no help for users. I would work to fix that, but you don't seem to want that.

I give up.

Comment 13

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

(In reply to Mark Filipak from comment #12)
> I'm sorry, Wayne. I don't know what in-product help is. I don't know what
> SUMO is or floss and I don't care. I know you explained those to me. Your
> explanations don't explain.
> 
> I write that when a user clicks 'Help' | 'Help Contents', he/she expects to
> get help. If that's not in-product help, then I don't know what in-product
> help is. 

in-product help are entirely in the software, in the *executable product* (like hints and balloons on mouseover, and capabilities which give tailored help in precisely the area of the UI that they are operating).  in-product help does not rely on external websites like knowledge base, websites, forums, pdf manuals, etc 


> There essentially is no help for users. I would work to fix that,
> but you don't seem to want that.

You're obviously a person who cares about the product, but I'm not going to argue semantics when you state things that I didn't say or don't agree with. And I'm not the final arbiter of what gets done - the community decides. 

I say there's room for improvement. Bugzilla isn't the place to make that happen.  We've pointed you to the existing resources. We can put you in touch with knowledgeable people. What is there to disagree with?

Comment 14

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

modulo the manual and other side issues, we all agree https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/thunderbird could be better. I've tuned the bug summary to reflect that. 

I don't want to lose track of this. Can someone recommend a location where we can coordinate a plan (etherpad?) and volunteer to coordinate?  Or, should we reopen the bug?  (because https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/thunderbird doesn't have a discussion page)

Comment 15

[Kent James (:rkent)]

Pretty much all of our web presence is suffering from neglect these days. There is nobody active in the Thunderbird community who has shown much interest in focusing on this area. Kohei did some great work moving us to Bedrock, but his interests are much broader than just Thunderbird.

I have my hands full with the donate pages.

Is there anybody on the SUMO side who might be interested in this?

Comment 16

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Actually, Thunderbird SUMO KB pages have far from zero attention. And most of the informed, active people are CC on this bug - this is to whom my questions are directed.  (And as you guessed, this isn't an area for Kohei.)

However, some pages like https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/thunderbird are not editable via the KB system. We ultimately require the involvement of an expert in this area once we decide what to do. 

Also, the wording of items on https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/thunderbird also impacts the categories users get to chose from when submitting a support request - so we can't randomly change titles, some discussion, coordination and thoughtful decisions must occur.