1354470 - [UX] Don't make the old Library window the most prominent item in the new Library panel

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(Firefox :: Bookmarks & History, enhancement, P1)

Description

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

<mak> so now we'll have a Library panel opening a Library window ;) so confusing
<dao> mak: we should rename one of the two. can the library window just say "bookmarks and history"? arguably downloads could be considered part of history, so maybe this is good enough
<mak> dao: I was mostly worried about support, plus the fact the Library window is named like that from a looong time, so I'm not 100% sure changing its name will work as-is...
<mak> Note that I think we should also replace the Library with something better...
<mak> but that's another discussion I'd not want to start now :)
<mak> to be clear, I'd have nothing against renaming the Library window. just that it may not work well with users memory
<dao> mak: right, if the new feature could get a new name, that would be preferable over renaming the old feature. I just suspect renaming the old one will be less of a headache in terms of design work.
<dao> at this point the library idea already crept into the new toolbar icon design
<dao> also not sure what a good alternative name for the panel would be
<mak> heh, the only other name that comes to my mind is "collections" but it doesn't sound so nice :P
<dao> "library" is just a window title right now, correct? we don't use the term anywhere else in the UI, so renaming it won't confuse users in terms of opening the window
<mak> no, it will confuse support interactions, when you say to a user "open the Library"
<mak> Edge calls it Hub... not great, since it's hard to translate (indeed in italian they kept Hub)
<dao> "open the library" is not a good instruction, as there's no UI entry point using that term
<mak> fair enough. I guess it will be fine to rename the Library window

The "Library" name goes back to bug 397411. beltzner and faaborg had settled on "Bookmarks and History" / "Bookmarks & History" before switching to "Library" in order to support a dubious plan that never materialized except for the addition of Downloads: "As we store more information in this window in the future the name won't turn into Bookmarks & History & Web Receipts & Locations, Events, and Contacts."

Comment 1

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

Attachment: change window title to "Bookmarks & History"

Comment 2

[:Gijs (he/him)]

I'm a bit confused about this - the mocks for this panel still show the library being called the Library ( https://mozilla.invisionapp.com/share/5ZAEYEW8M#/screens/218570319 and https://mozilla.invisionapp.com/share/5ZAEYEW8M#/screens/225105934 ), and we do show downloads in there. It seems to me we are planning to surface the word *more*, not less... It seems like it would make sense to check with Aaron and/or Bryan before doing this.

Comment 3

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to :Gijs from comment #2)
> I'm a bit confused about this - the mocks for this panel still show the
> library being called the Library (
> https://mozilla.invisionapp.com/share/5ZAEYEW8M#/screens/218570319 and
> https://mozilla.invisionapp.com/share/5ZAEYEW8M#/screens/225105934 )>

Interesting, I hadn't seen this yet. Not quite sure what the point of this is given that the History, Bookmarks and Downloads would still have their own "Show all" entries, wouldn't they?

>, and we do show downloads in there.

I mentioned this in my conversation with Marco, see comment 0.

> It seems to me we are planning to surface the
> word *more*, not less... It seems like it would make sense to check with
> Aaron and/or Bryan before doing this.

The patch is waiting for Bryan's ui-review.

Comment 4

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #3)
> > It seems to me we are planning to surface the
> > word *more*, not less... It seems like it would make sense to check with
> > Aaron and/or Bryan before doing this.
> 
> The patch is waiting for Bryan's ui-review.

Different Bryan. Bryan Clark (whose bugzilla says "devtools PM") vs. Bryan Bell. Did you mean to ask ui-review from the other Bryan? :-)

Comment 5

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to :Gijs from comment #4)
> (In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #3)
> > > It seems to me we are planning to surface the
> > > word *more*, not less... It seems like it would make sense to check with
> > > Aaron and/or Bryan before doing this.
> > 
> > The patch is waiting for Bryan's ui-review.
> 
> Different Bryan. Bryan Clark (whose bugzilla says "devtools PM") vs. Bryan
> Bell. Did you mean to ask ui-review from the other Bryan? :-)

I guess so. The photon spreadsheet calls the UX responsible just "Bryan" :/

Comment 6

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

*Sigh* Of course the Bugzilla form wouldn't find the right Bryan Bell since he doesn't expose his full name with his account.

Comment 7

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #3)
> (In reply to :Gijs from comment #2)
> > I'm a bit confused about this - the mocks for this panel still show the
> > library being called the Library (
> > https://mozilla.invisionapp.com/share/5ZAEYEW8M#/screens/218570319 and
> > https://mozilla.invisionapp.com/share/5ZAEYEW8M#/screens/225105934 )>
> 
> Interesting, I hadn't seen this yet. Not quite sure what the point of this
> is given that the History, Bookmarks and Downloads would still have their
> own "Show all" entries, wouldn't they?

In other words, I think the crucial question for Bryan here is: Can we get rid of that Library menu item since it appears to be redundant?

Comment 8

[Aaron Benson]

The addition of the Library icon in the toolbar is addressing 2 points:

1) Making the Library more prominent in the UI as this is the main entry point to All Your Things. 
2) The Library toolbar icon allows us to consolidate Library-related things (History, Downloads, Bookmarks, Pocket, etc) in one panel making it easier for folks to get back to what they are looking for. 

Pointers directly to Bookmarks or Downloads are shortcuts that address a users immediate need to those areas of the Library and bypass the front door. 

As an aside, we will be redesigning the Library (not as part of Photon), so exposing the Library entry point in the toolbar is laying some groundwork for the future...

Comment 9

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to abenson from comment #8)
> The addition of the Library icon in the toolbar is addressing 2 points:
> 
> 1) Making the Library more prominent in the UI as this is the main entry
> point to All Your Things. 
> 2) The Library toolbar icon allows us to consolidate Library-related things
> (History, Downloads, Bookmarks, Pocket, etc) in one panel making it easier
> for folks to get back to what they are looking for. 
> 
> Pointers directly to Bookmarks or Downloads are shortcuts that address a
> users immediate need to those areas of the Library and bypass the front
> door. 
> 
> As an aside, we will be redesigning the Library (not as part of Photon), so
> exposing the Library entry point in the toolbar is laying some groundwork
> for the future...

This sounds and awful lot like bug 397411 comment 12. I don't quite understand what value that "front door" adds today. Can we add the menu item and rebrand the window when we're actually redesigning it? I think introducing the library icon along with a "Library" tooltip now is fine regardless.

Comment 10

[Aaron Benson]

Yes, sounds good ... add a Library icon as shown in the mock and keep the Library window titled as Library.

Comment 11

[bbell]

> This sounds and awful lot like bug 397411 comment 12. I don't quite
> understand what value that "front door" adds today. 

Wow ten years, and we've still not gotten to the Library expansion. That is a long time. 

I feel you're reacting to the fact that the actual "Library" doesn't include all the things reflected in the "Library-menu." I totally get that, and it's not ideal, we'll make sure to double back right after photon ships to address that deficiency. 

Including it now does a couple of things. It establishes a navigation pattern that we'd like to build on asap and gives the user access to the only comprehensive bit of management UI we have.  We understood it wasn't perfect from the outset, but we're ok with it not being 100% perfect, for now.

Comment 12

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to bbell from comment #11)
> > This sounds and awful lot like bug 397411 comment 12. I don't quite
> > understand what value that "front door" adds today. 
> 
> Wow ten years, and we've still not gotten to the Library expansion. That is
> a long time. 
> 
> I feel you're reacting to the fact that the actual "Library" doesn't include
> all the things reflected in the "Library-menu." I totally get that, and it's
> not ideal, we'll make sure to double back right after photon ships to
> address that deficiency.

You say this now, but priorities change in the course of half a year. It has happened before.

> Including it now does a couple of things. It establishes a navigation
> pattern that we'd like to build on asap and gives the user access to the
> only comprehensive bit of management UI we have.

I think this is misguided. Trying to establish a pattern is futile if the pattern doesn't yield significant user benefits because the UI doesn't yet work the way you imagine it will work some day. The menu item seems more like a distraction at this point.

> We understood it wasn't
> perfect from the outset, but we're ok with it not being 100% perfect, for
> now.

I don't think we should be satisfied with this when we could just introduce the menu item later when it's really useful.

Unassigning for now, leaving it to others to decide how to proceed here.

Comment 13

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

Adding a bunch of needinfos so this doesn't fall through the cracks. Whether we should (temporarily) rename the Library window is a secondary question at this point, the primary one is about the menu item, see my previous comment.

Comment 14

[Aaron Benson]

Helping people get back to the things they find on the web is an important goal and the Library menu helps achieve that by cataloguing browsing activity in one prominent place in the browser. We've seen the Library menu test well in a recent user research study, so I have little concern about its ability to add value for people in the near term.

Comment 15

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to Aaron Benson from comment #14)
> Helping people get back to the things they find on the web is an important
> goal and the Library menu helps achieve that by cataloguing browsing
> activity in one prominent place in the browser.

The Library window as it exists today doesn't even attempt to help people get back to the things they find on the Web. (I believe Activity Stream will do that?) It just lists history, bookmarks, and downloads in the most primitive way, and the menu already has entry points for these.

> We've seen the Library menu
> test well in a recent user research study, so I have little concern about
> its ability to add value for people in the near term.

Putting an item prominently at the top of the menu pretty much guarantees that users will click it. Could you elaborate on how exactly it's useful rather than a distraction?

Comment 16

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #13)
> Adding a bunch of needinfos so this doesn't fall through the cracks. Whether
> we should (temporarily) rename the Library window is a secondary question at
> this point, the primary one is about the menu item, see my previous comment.

I don't have any real input to add here, I think this is a UX question, and I'm happy to trust UX that the menu is useful. I'll also point out that the status quo is that we have *two* such items in the equivalent menu (the bookmarks toolbar menu button's dropdown menu/panel). I just don't see this as particularly problematic.

Comment 17

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to :Gijs from comment #16)
> I'll also point out that the
> status quo is that we have *two* such items in the equivalent menu (the
> bookmarks toolbar menu button's dropdown menu/panel). I just don't see this
> as particularly problematic.

What do you mean by "such items"? "Show All Bookmarks"? Yes, these are some of the more explicit entry points I was talking about; they make the Library item redundant and (put this prominently in the menu) a distraction, given that the Library window today provides hardly any user value other than listing history, bookmarks, and downloads.

Comment 18

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #17)
> (In reply to :Gijs from comment #16)
> > I'll also point out that the
> > status quo is that we have *two* such items in the equivalent menu (the
> > bookmarks toolbar menu button's dropdown menu/panel). I just don't see this
> > as particularly problematic.
> 
> What do you mean by "such items"? "Show All Bookmarks"? Yes, these are some
> of the more explicit entry points I was talking about;

Yes, I mean that the toplevel bookmarks menu button panel menu has 2 entries that open the library (which are labeled "show all bookmarks" today).

> they make the Library item redundant

There are no other such items left in the toplevel panel in the spec.

Switching to having 0 such entries in the toplevel panel, which seems to be your proposal, doesn't strike me as a good course of action. Having to first open the bookmarks/history/downloads subpanel and then click 'show all X' actually makes it harder to open this window (whatever it's called). I don't understand why we would want to do that, unless we're actively aiming to get rid of the library window altogether.

> and (put this prominently in the menu) a distraction, given
> that the Library window today provides hardly any user value

[citation needed]

Do we have telemetry on the usage of the window? I should imagine it gets used by people who organize their bookmarks, plus it has entry points for import/export that aren't anywhere else.

In any case, absent data, I don't think removing items that merely maintain (and arguably improve) the status quo is a good course of action.

Comment 19

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to :Gijs from comment #18)
> Yes, I mean that the toplevel bookmarks menu button panel menu has 2 entries
> that open the library (which are labeled "show all bookmarks" today).
> 
> > they make the Library item redundant
> 
> There are no other such items left in the toplevel panel in the spec.
> 
> Switching to having 0 such entries in the toplevel panel, which seems to be
> your proposal, doesn't strike me as a good course of action. Having to first
> open the bookmarks/history/downloads subpanel and then click 'show all X'
> actually makes it harder to open this window (whatever it's called). I don't
> understand why we would want to do that, unless we're actively aiming to get
> rid of the library window altogether.
> 
> > and (put this prominently in the menu) a distraction, given
> > that the Library window today provides hardly any user value
> 
> [citation needed]

So far nobody has presented significant user value here; not sure why you're asking for citation to prove the opposite.

You seem to be assuming the user wants to "open the library," but I don't think this is how most users approach this window today. I understand we want to change that, but this will make much more sense with the Library window redesign in place.

What I think users actually want to do today when they open this window is to find either a bookmark, a history item or a download, or to organize bookmarks.

It is true that the "Show all" items would move one level deeper with the new menu structure. Of course, this is equally true for most other history, bookmark and download related tasks. If we think this is a problem (I don't think it is), then we should rethink the new menu structure. Or are you assuming that opening the Library is or should be a more common task than those tasks hidden deeper in the menu structure? If so: Why?

> Do we have telemetry on the usage of the window? I should imagine it gets
> used by people who organize their bookmarks, plus it has entry points for
> import/export that aren't anywhere else.

Yep, import/export are poorly exposed, but the "Library" label doesn't make it particularly obvious that these options exists either. Import/export also don't seem like every-day usage patterns that should drive the UI design here.

Comment 20

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #19)
> (In reply to :Gijs from comment #18)
> > Yes, I mean that the toplevel bookmarks menu button panel menu has 2 entries
> > that open the library (which are labeled "show all bookmarks" today).
> > 
> > > they make the Library item redundant
> > 
> > There are no other such items left in the toplevel panel in the spec.
> > 
> > Switching to having 0 such entries in the toplevel panel, which seems to be
> > your proposal, doesn't strike me as a good course of action. Having to first
> > open the bookmarks/history/downloads subpanel and then click 'show all X'
> > actually makes it harder to open this window (whatever it's called). I don't
> > understand why we would want to do that, unless we're actively aiming to get
> > rid of the library window altogether.
> > 
> > > and (put this prominently in the menu) a distraction, given
> > > that the Library window today provides hardly any user value
> > 
> > [citation needed]
> 
> So far nobody has presented significant user value here; not sure why you're
> asking for citation to prove the opposite.

Because you're suggesting that the status quo is valueless/harmful ('distraction') to the point where it *needs* changing at short notice.

> What I think users actually want to do today when they open this window is
> to find either a bookmark, a history item or a download, or to organize
> bookmarks.

Which is value, right?

Is what you're really saying that you think it makes more sense for them to do that directly within the menu than by first clicking 'Show Library' or "show all <whatever>" and then looking for it, iow, you'd prefer to 'promote' the use of the rest of the menu in favour of the library?

Related question: there's a library menu entry specced for the main (hamburger) panel/menu as well. Do you feel that should be removed, too?

> It is true that the "Show all" items would move one level deeper with the
> new menu structure. Of course, this is equally true for most other history,
> bookmark and download related tasks. If we think this is a problem (I don't
> think it is), then we should rethink the new menu structure. Or are you
> assuming that opening the Library is or should be a more common task than
> those tasks hidden deeper in the menu structure? If so: Why?

Because I assume people primarily use the location bar for recall of bookmarks, and the new menustructure will make organizing bookmarks within it via dnd much harder if not impossible (if not in the same folder). History/downloads were never there so I don't know how those usecases would be impacted. I've never seen (non-advanced) users use the (OS menubar or hamburger) history menu or panel item to try to find stuff they visited before. Not sure about how downloads will be impacted as I suspect in most cases, users will look for downloads from that session, and in that case the dedicated downloads button will be present and they'll presumably go there first anyway.

> > Do we have telemetry on the usage of the window? I should imagine it gets
> > used by people who organize their bookmarks, plus it has entry points for
> > import/export that aren't anywhere else.
> 
> Yep, import/export are poorly exposed, but the "Library" label doesn't make
> it particularly obvious that these options exists either. Import/export also
> don't seem like every-day usage patterns that should drive the UI design
> here.

Sure, I think organization/deletion will be a bigger reason for people to use the library.

Comment 21

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to :Gijs from comment #20)
> (In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #19)
> > (In reply to :Gijs from comment #18)
> > > Yes, I mean that the toplevel bookmarks menu button panel menu has 2 entries
> > > that open the library (which are labeled "show all bookmarks" today).
> > > 
> > > > they make the Library item redundant
> > > 
> > > There are no other such items left in the toplevel panel in the spec.
> > > 
> > > Switching to having 0 such entries in the toplevel panel, which seems to be
> > > your proposal, doesn't strike me as a good course of action. Having to first
> > > open the bookmarks/history/downloads subpanel and then click 'show all X'
> > > actually makes it harder to open this window (whatever it's called). I don't
> > > understand why we would want to do that, unless we're actively aiming to get
> > > rid of the library window altogether.
> > > 
> > > > and (put this prominently in the menu) a distraction, given
> > > > that the Library window today provides hardly any user value
> > > 
> > > [citation needed]
> > 
> > So far nobody has presented significant user value here; not sure why you're
> > asking for citation to prove the opposite.
> 
> Because you're suggesting that the status quo is valueless/harmful
> ('distraction') to the point where it *needs* changing at short notice.

I made no such dramatic statement. I think it would be better to introduce the item along with the library redesign, and focus on making the history, bookmark and download sub views useful.

> > What I think users actually want to do today when they open this window is
> > to find either a bookmark, a history item or a download, or to organize
> > bookmarks.
> 
> Which is value, right?

Sure, I said "provides hardly any user value other than listing history, bookmarks, and downloads."

> Is what you're really saying that you think it makes more sense for them to
> do that directly within the menu than by first clicking 'Show Library' or
> "show all <whatever>" and then looking for it, iow, you'd prefer to
> 'promote' the use of the rest of the menu in favour of the library?

You could put it that way, although "promote" is a bit misleading since it would really just maintain these items' current (pre-photon) prominence.

> Related question: there's a library menu entry specced for the main
> (hamburger) panel/menu as well. Do you feel that should be removed, too?

Well, first of all it seems redundant with the Library toolbar button. If the user removes the Library button, then the Library [window] menu entry isn't a suitable replacement since the Library window lacks access to Pocket and Synced tabs, let alone quick access to bookmarks, recent history or downloads. So, not really sure how this all fits together. Perhaps the menu entry should open the Library menu just like the button, and only be present when the button isn't in the toolbar?

> > It is true that the "Show all" items would move one level deeper with the
> > new menu structure. Of course, this is equally true for most other history,
> > bookmark and download related tasks. If we think this is a problem (I don't
> > think it is), then we should rethink the new menu structure. Or are you
> > assuming that opening the Library is or should be a more common task than
> > those tasks hidden deeper in the menu structure? If so: Why?
> 
> Because I assume people primarily use the location bar for recall of
> bookmarks,

That's an interesting assumption. I'd be surprised if it holds for the wider user base. I consider myself a power user and often access bookmarks through the panel or menu structure when I'm looking for one, and basically use the location bar for history search (which may still give me bookmarked pages if I'm lucky, but I don't count on it).

Comment 22

[Aaron Benson]

> The Library window as it exists today doesn't even attempt to help people
> get back to the things they find on the Web. (I believe Activity Stream will
> do that?) It just lists history, bookmarks, and downloads in the most
> primitive way, and the menu already has entry points for these.

I'd argue that the very nature of the Library window is to help people get back to what they were doing on the Web .. the current implementation just doesn't do it very well :). The Library menu in the toolbar (as proposed) is the first step at making this a better experience by reducing the number of decisions a person has to make when looking for their stuff. This, of course, doesn't preclude power users from getting at things with greater sophistication (searching the awesome bar, customizing the toolbar menu, etc). What it does do, is creates a much clearer mental model about how the browser is storing this information AND THEN allows people to modify the UI for their needs .. not the other way around. 


On a semi-related note: I just recently discovered you can search only your bookmarks in the location bar by typing "* ". This blew my mind.

Comment 23

[Adolfo Jayme]

> It just lists history, bookmarks, and downloads in the most primitive way

> given that the Library window today provides hardly any user value

As a user, I really appreciate that the “primitive” Library window exists. Period. It’s a nicely organized, fast, and centralized hub to manage my web history (which comprises everything from bookmarks to downloads); it is much more valuable to me than, e.g., Chrome’s History view (a hard-to-use web page).

Comment 24

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to Adolfo Jayme from comment #23)
> > It just lists history, bookmarks, and downloads in the most primitive way
> 
> > given that the Library window today provides hardly any user value
> 
> As a user, I really appreciate that the “primitive” Library window exists.
> Period. It’s a nicely organized, fast, and centralized hub to manage my web
> history (which comprises everything from bookmarks to downloads); it is much
> more valuable to me than, e.g., Chrome’s History view (a hard-to-use web
> page).

So I was quoted (again) with the crucial rest of that sentence removed. That's not a useful way to have a discussion. I was not saying that today's Library provides no value at all, nor that it should be removed.

Comment 25

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

> > Related question: there's a library menu entry specced for the main
> > (hamburger) panel/menu as well. Do you feel that should be removed, too?
> 
> Well, first of all it seems redundant with the Library toolbar button. If
> the user removes the Library button, then the Library [window] menu entry
> isn't a suitable replacement since the Library window lacks access to Pocket
> and Synced tabs, let alone quick access to bookmarks, recent history or
> downloads. So, not really sure how this all fits together. Perhaps the menu
> entry should open the Library menu just like the button, and only be present
> when the button isn't in the toolbar?

Bryan or Aaron, can you clarify how this is supposed to work?

Comment 26

[bbell]

We're aware of the redundancy, and that's by design. The New Application Menu "aka. The Hamburger Menu" is not going to be user editable, like the toolbar is. The Application Menu provides access to the most used menu functions and all the navigatable places in the Browser and is that way to ensure that even if the user removes every single icon from the toolbar Firefox remain functional.

Comment 27

[Aaron Benson]

I'll add to Bryan's comment 26 that the Library menu item in the Application menu should open the Library window and shouldn't be conditional in any way.

Comment 28

[bbell]

I'm going to review the finer details of the library menu, and the references needed to Library items in the New Application Menu. 

I totally recognize the issue Dão has with the reference to an "incomplete" Library, I'm just not sure if it's a show stopper. I have most of a solution figured out and I'll get some mock-ups posted soon.

Comment 29

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

(In reply to bbell from comment #26)
> We're aware of the redundancy, and that's by design. The New Application
> Menu "aka. The Hamburger Menu" is not going to be user editable, like the
> toolbar is.

The redundancy is the least concerning part of my question. The more concerning part is that the Library window lacks features that the Library panel offers, since it wasn't designed as a superset or replacement.

> The Application Menu provides access to the most used menu
> functions and all the navigatable places in the Browser and is that way to
> ensure that even if the user removes every single icon from the toolbar
> Firefox remain functional.

Do you have data showing that the Library window is used more than quick bookmark and history access via menus, and more than other features that the Library panel offers?

(In reply to bbell from comment #28)
> I totally recognize the issue Dão has with the reference to an "incomplete"
> Library, I'm just not sure if it's a show stopper. I have most of a solution
> figured out and I'll get some mock-ups posted soon.

Very few bugs are showstoppers. I think there's some middle ground where UI deficiencies should be addressed even though they don't stop the earth from spinning. ;)

Comment 30

[Dão Gottwald [:dao]]

Oops, previous needinfo was meant for bbell.

Comment 31

[bbell]

OK we're going to go with this... 

https://mozilla.invisionapp.com/share/BPBQQJ16A#/229252053_Library