1773902 - Remove "About" from Mac Help appmenu

Status: RESOLVED WONTFIX

(Thunderbird :: Mail Window Front End, defect)

Description

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

On Mac, "About" doesn't exist on our Help menu, but it does on the appmenu (hamburger). It should be removed from appmenu. (reference Firefox menus)

Comment 1

[Martin Giger [:freaktechnik]]

I don't think that item is hidden on Mac in Firefox (though I can't verify, but I at least see no code that would lead to it not being shown on Mac), instead it is just in a different place in the native menu bar that doesn't exist in the app menu. In the native menu bar it is on the "app name" menu, so the one labeled "Thunderbird" for us.

Comment 2

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

Attachment: Firefox Help appmenu

Correct, "About" properly exists in the Mac native menu for both applications. This bug is only about removing it from the appmenu.

Comment 3

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

I disagree with this.
The "About" link in the App Menu should remain since the App Menu doesn't have a "Thunderbird" menu entry like the macOS System menu.
So, users that rely on the App Menu and not the system menu bar won't be able to access the About dialog.

Martin found out that that menu entry is not hidden on Thunderbird because m-c changed some IDs and we didn't follow along.
I'm okay with this accidental "issue".

Any reasons why should we remove it?
Our App Menu is drastically different from the Firefox app menu, so we shouldn't always follow what they do but only when it makes sense.

Comment 4

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

To be transparent - I'm no Mac expert, only vaugue familiar with the HIG (which may not apply in this case), and don't know what other applications have appmenu.

But Thunderbird > About always exists on a Mac, and most Mac users will already know for applications that this is where to go for updates and basic application information. It seems to me this clashes with the idea that Mac users must rely on having About in our app menu.

I only looked to Firefox after I found the inconsistency in our own UI. I didn't offer Firefox's UI to claim we must do the same, just as an example.

In short I stand by the idea that Mac users shouldn't need it in our Appmenu. It seems more Mac-ish to only have it in Mac's Thunderbird menu. But I defer to Mac experts on this point.

Comment 5

[Matt]

I am all for anything which removed the pointless and confusing menu differences between operating systems. From a support perspective, apple users are simply the worst. They just post in support forum that some menu link does not exists and after three or four back and forward messages you learn what the actual issue is. Apparently we know they use apple products. While Apple and Linux combined make up less that 5% of Thunderbird users they appear to take up a lot of support time because there is nothing out there with their menu system and they require literally exactly the same thing to follow instructions. Having a common app menu layout across all operating systems would be a huge bonus really from a support perspective.

Arguments about Apple users expect this or Linux users expect this style of menu layout are all good. Except they apparently can not find what they want using native menu systems. I do not wrote for apple or Linux. I have to keep referring to lookup tables even if I want to use the correct menu designations. I do not think I should have to do that, not do I think users should been expected to know we layout the product differently based on operating system because a few evangelists want it the way "their" operating system does it. No menu in Windows, menu in Apple is silly enough, without messing with the appmenu (much as I dislike it).

Comment 6

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

It does seem silly, and it is certainly a support problem which I appreciate.
On the other hand, we have numerous OS standards.
On a whim I was inspired look at my open Mac apps - 10 from free to paid, and various vendors - none had "About" on their Help menus.

So, users that rely on the App Menu and not the system menu bar won't be able to access the About dialog.

Perhaps I am dense but I don't get it. If someone is ingenious enough to hide the system menu bar, would they also not know how to summon it? (I just tested "auto hide" for the first time - it's easy so summon)

Comment 7

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

(In reply to Matt from comment #5)
While following OS conventions may increase support overhead, it's certainly important for user adaption to follow those conventions, whatever they are. Few people want to use something that looks and feels alien.

Comment 8

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

Our AppMenu isn't following OS conventions. If we follow this conventions we'd have to remove it completely. But have it consistent over the platforms is important for us.

Comment 9

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

I agree with that. (Just responding on a the general topic, I have no input at all on mac.)

Comment 10

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

(In reply to Wayne Mery (:wsmwk) from comment #4)

But Thunderbird > About always exists on a Mac, and most Mac users will already know for applications that this is where to go for updates and basic application information. It seems to me this clashes with the idea that Mac users must rely on having About in our app menu.

I'm not advocating for the removal of the "About" in the macOS "Thunderbird" menu, I'm simply saying that having it in the "App Menu > Help" section is another entry point that it's useful and it doesn't create any complexity, confusion, or issues.

So, users that rely on the App Menu and not the system menu bar won't be able to access the About dialog.

Perhaps I am dense but I don't get it. If someone is ingenious enough to hide the system menu bar, would they also not know how to summon it? (I just tested "auto hide" for the first time - it's easy so summon)

Different users have different needs and use different things. We're working towards making our toolbar buttons keyboard accessible and easily reachable, and while the macOS menu bar is keyboard accessible, is not the mot easily reachable without a mouse.

(In reply to Magnus Melin [:mkmelin] from comment #7)

Few people want to use something that looks and feels alien.

That's a very broad statement that doesn't really apply to the topic of this bug.
Also, it's mostly an incorrect statement since apps like Spotify, Reaper, Figma, and hundreds more, don't follow platforms conventions at all with their in-context menus, but they're nonetheless extremely famous and widely used.
Users use what makes sense and is easily accessible.

Here, we're not talking about modifying the macOS menu bar to not respect the platform specifications. We are respecting platforms specifications.

Here, we're thinking about what to do with our App Menu, which is a very unique in-context menu that doesn't fall under any macOS platform guidelines, as Richard correctly pointed out.
Since we don't exclusively rely on the main menu bar, but we also have a somewhat perfect match of those menuitems in the App Menu, we should also guarantee reachability of the "About" menuitem if users decide to hide the macOS menu bar and exclusively rely on the in-context App Menu.

In conclusion, my recommendation is to leave the "About" link in the "App Menu > Help" because it doesn't create any issues, it doesn't go against platforms specs, and it keeps the consistency of having the same amount of menu items in both menu bar and app menu.

Comment 11

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

(In reply to Alessandro Castellani [:aleca] from comment #10)

...
Here, we're not talking about modifying the macOS menu bar to not respect the platform specifications. We are respecting platforms specifications.

Here, we're thinking about what to do with our App Menu, which is a very unique in-context menu that doesn't fall under any macOS platform guidelines, as Richard correctly pointed out.
Since we don't exclusively rely on the main menu bar, but we also have a somewhat perfect match of those menuitems in the App Menu, we should also guarantee reachability of the "About" menuitem if users decide to hide the macOS menu bar and exclusively rely on the in-context App Menu.

You have convinced me.

Comment 12

[Matt]

(In reply to Richard Marti (:Paenglab) from comment #8)

Our AppMenu isn't following OS conventions. If we follow this conventions we'd have to remove it completely. But have it consistent over the platforms is important for us.

My point exactly! It is I think perhaps one of the most important user features we can adopt. A consistent path to find features.