Closed Bug 433310 Opened 17 years ago Closed 17 years ago

Firefox uses the incorrect ellipsis (…) in the German translation of the user interface.

Categories

(Mozilla Localizations :: de / German, defect)

Product:
Mozilla Localizations
Component:
de / German
Platform:
x86
Linux
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
trivial

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED INVALID

People

(Reporter: patrick.trettenbrein, Unassigned)

Details

User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.8.1.14) Gecko/20080418 Ubuntu/7.10 (gutsy) Firefox/2.0.0.14 Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.8.1.14) Gecko/20080418 Ubuntu/7.10 (gutsy) Firefox/2.0.0.14 When loading a page in a tab for example, Firefox displays "Laden…" instead of the name of the page that is being loaded (when using German localization of course). But this is incorrect according to German grammar! Instead it should say "Laden …" with a space between the word and the ellipsis. The elipsis right behind the word are only used in German when the word is cut off. For example: "Lad…" would be correct. Please have a look at the Duden (the dictionary of the German language) if you need more detailed information. Anyway, this might not be something very important, but nevertheless I'd like to see Firefox using proper German grammar. This "bug", or better to say problem, appears various times in the hole German translation of the user interface. Correcting this should be an easy search and replace operation (at least I guess it should), so it'd be very kind if that could be corrected anytime soon. ;) PS: I'm not sure about the situation when using the English user interface, because I don't know the rules that apply there and stuf … but maybe someone should also check that? Reproducible: Always Steps to Reproduce: 1. open up firefox (with German localization) 2. select the "Extras" menu 3. et voilà, you'll see the the "bug" for the first time when you read "Private Daten löschen…"
Component: General → de / German localizations
Product: Firefox → Mozilla Localizations
QA Contact: general → german.de
Well, this was discussed a few times before, the ellisis in the UI is not the one which is explained in "Duden". There it means, that something is omitted and in that case it would be right to add the ellipsis after a blank, but here in the UI it means that the user will be asked to interact with the program after clicking the item. I'm afraid, there is no rule for that in German so we are using the English one. Besides, this is a quasi standard, if you look at how other german localized apps handle this.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → RESOLVED
Closed: 17 years ago
Resolution: --- → INVALID
Well, I don't think that it's quasi standard, there's a lot of apps out there that use ellipsis the correct, German way. All the KDE apps here on my Linux system for example do. E.g.: "Probleme oder Wünsche berichten …" is displayed in one of the text editor Kate's dialogues. Concerning the "interaction thing". That's not the point here. I don't really get what you mean by that. The rule simply is, that when a word is cut off you use the ellipses directly attatched to the cut off word, with no space between. For example: "Das Wor…" In opposite to that, when a sentence ends with an ellipses and the last word isn't cut off you place a space between the the last word an the ellipses. For example: "Das Wort …" Logically this rule also applies when you for example write "Laden …", as the word isn't cut off. Besides that this "solution", or better "way to handle the issue", fits the standard German use way better! At least in my opinion, but I'm optimistic that most people might agree with me. ;)
Status: RESOLVED → UNCONFIRMED
Resolution: INVALID → ---
(In reply to comment #2) > Concerning the "interaction thing". That's not the point here. I don't really > get what you mean by that. In the mentioned "interaction" the elipsis isn't used for cut off phrases. The elipsis rather is a sign for a following dialog box or something similar. So I don't think we have an existing rule in German. IMHO it's more a GUI question than a language question.
Alexander is right, we use the ellipssis with a totaly different meaning. Our usage is a sign for an interaction, which happens to use the same "character" as the "word or sentence omitted" sign. Like "bow" can mean bending forward or a weapon, they just happen to use the same graphical representation, that doesn't mean, that the rules for "bending forward" can be applied to the weapon. We use the ellipssis as a homonym, which is quite interesting, because it's a new one, which doesn't happen very often :) And please don't reopen a bug if I close it.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → RESOLVED
Closed: 17 years ago → 17 years ago
Resolution: --- → INVALID
Well, I reopened the bug because I DON'T think that it's resolved yet. The ellipsis indicates that the sentence is interrupted. That's the grammatical definition. But logically it also inticates that something is going to follow. It inticates that what is written here isn't finished and that something is going to follow. So at least in my term the standard German rules do apply here and therefore also should be applied. The fact that loads of programmes out there use the ellipsis that (correct) way, is backing my argument, I'd say. Anyway, I suggested it, you rejected it … (Please take notice of the space in the sentence above!) ;)
(In reply to comment #5) > But logically it also inticates that something is going to follow. > It inticates that what is written here isn't finished and that something is > going to follow. Don't you think that in written language that's the exact defintion for the use of a colon?
(In reply to comment #6) > Don't you think that in written language that's the exact defintion for the use > of a colon? Arm… No, I don't think so. I guess we're talking at cross-purposes. A colon is used for direct speech and stuff in German. But you don't use it to indicate that something is gonna follow. At least I heavn't learned to use it that way when I was in school, and I sure won't use it that way. An example: Use an ellipses here … That's the say I'm using them two.
You can't learn about this use in school, just because there are _no_ official rules for orthography in computer menus and buttons, not even in the "new" rule set. The use of ellipses we have here is something that has no predefined rules. The nearest thing that does exist in the rules is the use of a full stop (dot). This is similar to the style used in chat etc. where full sentences end with an ellipsis instead of a full stop, which is basically wrong in orthography but common style to symbolize you are continuing thinking or something like that. e.g. "Du meinst, das ist falsch? Ich weiß nicht so recht… Warte mal, ich schau nach…" By the way: (In reply to comment #7) > Arm… Interesting use of your own ;-)
Well, you're right. There is no official rule for orhography in computer menus. All I say was, that it'd be logical to apply the same rules here as they're used in other German texts. (In reply to comment #8) > e.g. "Du meinst, das ist falsch? Ich weiß nicht so recht… Warte mal, ich > schau nach…" Conerning the examples you provided. They're all wrong concerning to the Duden. Yeah, it's right that an ellipses inticates that an action/sentence is going on. But when a word isn't cut off (at the end of the sentence) then you have to place a space between the last word of the sentence and the ellipses. e.g.: Ich überleg es mir noch … Writing it the other way (with no space between) inticates, that a fragment of the last word is missing. e.g.: Ich überleg es mir no… So writing "Ich überleg es mir noch…" is simply wrong, as nothing is beeing cut off here. I hope that I've explained my point good enough now, so that finally everybody will understand what I'm talking about and why I think that this should be changed. ;)
Hmm, right, my examples were wrong. Let's look into the rules: § 99 Mit drei Punkten (Auslassungspunkten) zeigt man an, dass in einem Wort, Satz oder Text Teile ausgelassen worden sind. Now the rules only are true for this case, and we're not actually marking something left out there, we're marking a dialog being called for this functionality. Because of that, wwe are IMHO in territory where the rules don't apply as such. (BTW, I can't find the rules concerning [not] using a space, could you tell me the number of the paragraphs in the 2006 rules where those are written down?)
I don't have a copy of the Duden here, so that I can't look it up. I'm sorry. But to back my point I've found the following links: * http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslassungspunkte – Wikipedia says I'm right. * http://faql.de/typographie.html – This page does so too. And most important: * http://www.duden.de/deutsche_sprache/newsletter/archiv.php?id=71 – On the official web site of the Duden the same is stated.
Everything that calls it "Auslassungspunkte" is basically wrong for us, as we do not, i repeat, DO NOT, leave out anything here!!!!!!11111elf
How often shall I repeat it again …? No matter how you call it, it's the same typrographical sign. It's the ellipses, and nothing else. All I said above (a dozen times already, I guess) was, that due to this fact the same rules should be applied. Because it simply is logical. Why should this sign be used in a different way here? Anyway, it seems to me like this discussion isn't going to bring any result …
Patrick, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. You are absolutely right about "Auslassungzeichen" as the Duden calls them, but Robert is right as well, because he makes it clear, that we dont use "Auslassungszeichen". We use "Dialogzeichen". Unfortunately we use the same graphical representation (...) and that is indeed confusing and regrettable. We should have a special sign to indicate, that a dialog will follow. That way normal people might actually understand what they mean, and not only the tiny fraction who is in UIs. You can blame ASCII or whatever that there is no such sign, but you have to understand that rules for "Auslassungzeichen" don't apply to "Dialogzeichen" just because they look the same.
Well, this is no misunderstanding. But I think that you're trying to make a seperation where there is none. Anyway, this seems to be a fixed thing already with you Firefox translators, so I don't wanna argue any longer. It was just a proposal, because I noticed that when I used Firefox. As you didn't or don't want to see my point, or just not seem to get it seems to me to be kinda pointless. This bugs's closed already, so what. I'm not really interested in any further discussion. But nevertheless you Firefox translators do a great job, so keep it up!
Duplicate of bug 269003.
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