Closed Bug 450579 Opened 13 years ago Closed 13 years ago

[bg] Search engine setup for Firefox 3 for Bulgarian.

Categories

(Mozilla Localizations :: bg / Bulgarian, defect)

defect
Not set
normal

Tracking

(Not tracked)

RESOLVED FIXED

People

(Reporter: Pike, Assigned: ogi)

References

Details

(Whiteboard: needs-mic)

Attachments

(7 files, 6 obsolete files)

This is a follow-up bug to bug 424687.

We want to ship Firefox 3 a good list of search engines for Bulgarian. 

Mic and Ogi did some chatting in bug 424687, the guidelines for making recommendations are on http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_web_services_guidelines. 

For en-US, we currently use this set, to which we can fall back in the case of lacking localized alternatives:
Google, Yahoo, Amazon, Answers, CC, eBay, Wikipedia

After we decided on a particular search engine, Mic will contact the owner and ask for permission, and for specifics like proper search flags. undefined, we'll likely need your help to at least get the contact information.

Once we have a specification on what the searchengines for Bulgarian should look like, the localization team and Axel will work on an implementation on that. This should happen by the localization team creating and attaching patches for the desired changes, and requesting review from Axel. After a successful review, the localization team will land them.

Please don't commit any modifications in l10n/bg/browser/searchplugins to the cvs repository without a patch reviewed by Axel or someone else appointed by Mic. The data here is sensitive to users and our search partners, thus the extra care here.

I don't see any clear outcome from bug 424687 comment 6.

I don't see any real discussion on whether we intend to remove or replace any of the en-US plugins. In particular, what about answers and wikipedia? Amazon.com vs amazon.co.uk, would the latter have better shipping prices? Same for ebay? Unless we had real local alternatives to those.
Google gives significantly better results than any Bulgarian search engine. If local search engine should be chosen, the alternatives are search.bg and diri.bg. I don't think jabse.com can match these two. I said that search.bg gives better results than diri.bg but now I'm not so sure. Diri.bg has some abilities similar to Answers, e.g. right sidebar that shows wikipedia pages and dictionary entries relevant to search query. Given that Answers doesn't have any localized content and fallbacks to Google search, I think that it should be dropped and diri.bg used instead. Yahoo! has no Bulgarian l10n and its services are almost not used with big exception of Yahoo! Mail.

Local alternatives of Amazon that are good enough are www.pe-bg.com (Penguins bookshop) and www.helikon.bg . Helikon has more media coverage about its activities and generally try to innovate in this business. I read that Penguins has a bit more coverage of books and better quality of service but these are not much better than Helikon.

Sites similar to eBay are fragmented. It seems that www.oferti.bg is the most popular. eBay is not used by Bulgarians.

Bulgarian Wikipedia is good and well supported.

I don't know of something similar to CC.
The above alternatives for Amazon are only for books. I'll comment about general commerce sites soon.

I have especially researched about Amazon prices and Amazon US gives better final prices than any Amazon in EU (GB, DE, etc.).
After researching e-commerce sites in Bulgaria, the site that can be recommended for searchplugins is 911.bg. There are others, like get.bg, but for example there are many complaints about the latter.

Is there anything more I can do about determining bg searchplugins?
Hi Ogi, thanks for the suggestions and input.

Mic, Seth, this needs your comments and guidance.
Whiteboard: needs-mic
Attached file Search engine plugin for oferti.bg (obsolete) —
Attached file Search engine plugin for 911.bg (obsolete) —
Diri.bg provide their own searchplugin and it's attached. I've made and tested searchplugins for oferti.bg and 911.bg based on the Amazon plugin.
Hi Ognyan. Thanks for all the suggestion above :)

I've read through the bug 424687 and this one, an my understanding about the current suggestions is as follows (correct me if I'm wrong anywhere!) :

general search: 
* google 
* diri.bg (providing some of the answers.com functionalities)

e-commerce (we need to choose two):
* pe-bg.com or helikon.bg (books)
* oferti.bg (are these auctions or classified ads?)
* 911.bg

specific interest search:
* wikipedia


What we need to try to do now is to 
1/ choose the best option for the e-commerce search (we want to have two of these) and 
2/ try to find something of a value in the specific interest section (in en-US: CC). For example, can you think of any public on-line library with Bulgarian literature? (just an example, feel free to come up with other!)
oferti.bg is roughly like craigslist.

For e-commerce search, oferti.bg and 911.bg are the best general choices.

I'll search for candidates for specific interest section.
Ognyan, thanks for explanation. oferti.bg and 911.bg do look like very good choices here.

One more thing though: I got an impression that 911.bg was focused on hardware, like cars, computers, furniture and such. Can you tell me if one can shop for books/films/music there as well? 

Can you also confirm that eBay and Amazon are not popular and are of no relevance to Bulgarian users?
Your impression of 911.bg is correct but I don't know of universal e-commerce site in Bulgaria that can be recommended. Both pe-bg.com and helikon.bg provide music CD and movie DVDs in addition to books.

eBay is known as name but not used. Amazon is popular and actively used for things that are hard (or impossible) to find locally so it's definately worth adding.
Ognyan, below I tried to summarize our discussion and provide my suggestions. Please feel encouraged to share your thoughts.

general search: 
* google 
* diri.bg (providing some of the answers.com functionalities)

e-commerce:
* pe-bg.com
* 911.bg 
* amazon.com

specific interest search:
* wikipedia
* ...

As you can see, I'm leaning towards having 7 plugins. Here is why:

I feel it is important to provide a good books/films/cd shopping website (I'm suggesting pe-bg.com over helikon.bg based on your comment 1), a good general e-commerce website (I'm suggesting 911.bg over oferti.bg based on Alexa's popularity ranking (911 is twice as popular)), and a good foreign e-commerce website (amazon) to provide the possibility to buy products not available locally (you mentioned that amazon US gives better prices that the European ones - does it including the shipping?).

I would also like us to have two specific interest search plug-ins, so ideas are welcome :) Like I mentioned previously, this can be something very different from en-US (CC), like a dictionary, encyclopedia, online library etc.
I like this list.

I compared Amazon US and other Amazon:s using the final prices and this includes shipping.

I'll search again for specific interest search.
Thanks Ognyan. Just a quick note: we should try to close this bug soon (this week) as otherwise it will block the beta release.
Dictionary as second specific interest search engine is very good choice. Bulgarian online dictionaries for English-Bulgarian generally have one source - a dictionary published 20 years ago. The best option is Eurodict <http://www.eurodict.com/> which have other popular languages as well (French, German, Spanish, Italian, Greek, Turkish). But there is some weird way of using web forms by switching to http://www.propertyspain-golf.com/golf_properties_spain.html (some advertising strategy I guess). URLs like http://www.eurodict.com/search.php?word=test&ok=1&diction=ed_en_bg work though. There are other alternatives but I think any will be subset of Eurodict. The relevant contact in http://www.koralsoft.com/company_page.php?side_id=8 seems to be support@koralsoft.com (technical contact). office@koralsoft.com is listed as general contact.
This is a good suggestion but I'm not convinced if the behavior that you describe is OK. It creates a really bad user experience, and even if we can search for a translation using the URL, the final URL gets changed when the page finished loading :( This only adds to confusion.

I'll write to them asking if it can be simplified, but maybe we can try to find something else? You mentioned that there are more than one dictionaries present - any other you would recommend?

BTW. I wrote to pe-bg.com and 911.bg today asking for their permission. I couldn't find the contact information for diri.bg though. I was looking at dir.bg as well. Would you mind helping me out here, please? :)
In our usage of search engines, looks like best choice is http://portal.bg/dict/ Contact address is veni@veni.com

Some alternatives:

http://dictionary.search.bg/ - very similar

http://www.rechnik-bg.com/ - it has French and Russian too. The major downsides are that site rank is low and and design is not good.

http://sa.dir.bg/ - uses frames

http://kbedic.sourceforge.net/online/ - frames, shares a lot with sa.dir.bg

There are others but I don't think they are worth mentioning.

I couldn't find mail contact for diri.bg or dir.bg either :) I've submitted support form about this matter and I'm waiting reply.
I have a reply that contact about diri.bg is vsmitev@dir.bg
I got a reply from diri.bg:

=================================
From: "Vladimir Mitev" 
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 2:48:31 PM GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Bern / Rome / Stockholm / Vienna
Subject: RE: diri.bg search plug-in in Bulgarian Firefox

Hello,
I confirm the parameters in the url:
http://www.diri.bg/search.php?came=s&u=1&textfield={searchTerms}

Just to make it clear:
{searchTerms} should be the user query
Without { }

So for example if user is searching for "test" the url would be:
http://www.diri.bg/search.php?came=s&u=1&textfield=test


" If you wish, we can add another parameter for you to identify the traffic driven by the plug-in (e.g. from=mozilla)."
You can use this parameter :
&browser=ff
So the url will be:
http://www.diri.bg/search.php?came=s&u=1&browser=ff&textfield=test

(...)
=================================
(In reply to comment #18)
> In our usage of search engines, looks like best choice is
> http://portal.bg/dict/ Contact address is veni@veni.com
> 
> Some alternatives:
> 
> http://dictionary.search.bg/ - very similar

These two look really good to me. What are the differences between the two? The second one appeals to me with the simplistic interface. What would be your recommendation?

A quick summary of where we are at right now:

general search: 
* google 
* diri.bg (permission: true, patch: need to add the browser=ff param)

e-commerce:
* pe-bg.com (permission: false)
* 911.bg  (permission: false)
* amazon.com

specific interest search:
* wikipedia (bg)
* ... (one of the dictionary search sites, permission: todo)

Still haven't heard from pe-bg and 911, I will write to them tomorrow. Thanks Ognyan for all your hard work so far on this.
Last Wednesday I wrote to e-shop@pe-bg.com and submitted 911.bg feedback form but I still don't have answer...

Initially, I wanted to promote dictionary.search.bg but then I thought about whether search.bg services are supported at all. For example, http://forum.search.bg/ is linked by other pages like http://www.search.bg/dictionary/ as NEW! (НОВ!) but many forums are full of spam. There are some details too like (c) 1997-2007.
Ognyan, great points and observations. Let's go with portal.bg/dict in that case. As you said, the content is the same, but search.bg doesn't seem to be maintained any more (or hardly). If that's OK with you, I'll write to portal.bg and ask for the permission to include their search plug-in.
Last week I talked via Mobile with a guy from pe-bg.com. Did he reply, or to ping him again?  It's worth noting that he asked if there's payment for inclusion as search engine and is it really only permission from their side (e.g. or technical works is invovled from their side)

I'm unpleasantly surprised by 911.bg - no response from them :-(
Still no news from pe-bg.com, 911.bg nor portal.bg.

general search: 
* google 
* diri.bg (permission: true, patch: need to add the browser=ff param)

e-commerce:
* pe-bg.com (permission: pending)
* 911.bg  (permission: pending)
* amazon.com

specific interest search:
* wikipedia (bg)
* portal.bg/dict (permission: pending)

I'm going to try to do a few phone calls. Here are the numbers that I found:
* for pe-bg.com: http://www.pe-bg.com/?cid=65
* for 911.bg: http://911.bg/a2/contacts.asp

I haven't found anything for http://www.portal.bg/.

If you can ping any of these sites, by all means, please do :) We should really try to close this bug soon. (And we'll still need to make actual patches, once we have the permissions.)
Permission from portal.bg from Dimitar Ganchev:

==============================

Yes, you have the permission. I hope you have understood it properly - this is an online Bulgarian - English - Bulgarian dictionary and not a search engine.

The URL should be the following:

http://portal.bg/dict/index.php?word=QUERY&translate=firefox&encin=windows-1251&encout=windows-1251

Where "QUERY" is the search string. The encin and and encout are optional and should contain the input (query) and output (generated web page) encoding if available.

There is another possible use of this system - if you put a parameter "search" instead of "translate", then the query will be searched in the whole database - including word descriptions, not only words.

http://portal.bg/dict/index.php?word=QUERY&search=firefox&encin=windows-1251&encout=windows-1251

==============================
Permission from pe-bg.com from Grigor Nikolov (somewhat implicit):

==============================

URL For search:  http://www.pe-bg.com/?cid=3&search_q=%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B2&firefox=1
 

search_q  - Подаденият стринг трябва да е UTF8

==============================
...and from 911.bg:

==========================

This a link with parameters to include.
http://911.bg/a2/search.asp?qs=gsm

Best Regards: todor Krastev

==========================

Making progress! :)

It looks that we're set.

general search: 
* google 
* diri.bg (permission: true, comment 20)

e-commerce:
* pe-bg.com (permission: true, comment 27)
* 911.bg  (permission: true, comment 28)
* amazon.com

specific interest search:
* wikipedia (bg)
* portal.bg/dict (permission: true, comment 26)

Ognyan, let's work on the patch now. Want to give it a try? For favicons, we'll need to use
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/data/data and we should put all the
search parameters in separate <Param/> elements. More on this topic:
http://developer.mozilla.org/En/Creating_MozSearch_plugins

I'll be happy to help out, so simply let me know if you want to do this (and if
you have time).

Thanks!
Great news! It was unexpectedly long journey and I'm thankful for your fast actions :-)

I'll work on patches this weekend :)
Attachment #335340 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Attached file diri.bg Search Engine
Attachment #335339 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Attached file 911.bg Search Engine
Attachment #335341 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Attached file pe-bg.com Search Engine (obsolete) —
I've made, tested and attached search plugins for bg l10n and they are ready for review.
Awesome, thanks Ognyan. Would you mind preparing a patch including these plugins? Please remember about the browser/searchplugins/list.txt file as well. Let me know if I can help. Thanks!
Attached patch Patch for updating searchplugins (obsolete) — Splinter Review
It seems that you used a diff program to prepare this patch. Can you put the plugins you created in your working copy of cvs repository (in browser/searchplugins) and then attach the output of cvs diff -uN command?
Removed redundant question mark from Url/@template
Attachment #343888 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Attached patch Patch for updating searchplugins (obsolete) — Splinter Review
Patch made with diff -uN in l10n/bg/browser/searchplugins.
Comment on attachment 344480 [details] [diff] [review]
Patch for updating searchplugins

Ognyan, this looks good in general, but please find my comments below. They shouldn't be hard to address. Do you think you can try to attach a new patch tomorrow? Thanks!

>Index: 911bg.xml
>===================================================================
>+<ShortName>911.bg</ShortName>

Should we include ".bg" here? Isn't the name "911"?

>+<Description>Търсачка diri.bg</Description>

I guess this should be changed to 911? :)


>+<Param name="qs" value="{searchTerms}" />

Please indent this line with 2 spaces.

>Index: diribg.xml
>===================================================================

>+<ShortName>Дири.бг</ShortName>

Again: Diri.bg or simply Diri?

>+<Param name="came" value="s" />
>+<Param name="u" value="1" />
>+<Param name="browser" value="ff" />
>+<Param name="textfield" value="{searchTerms}" />

Same as above, please indent this line with 2 spaces.

>Index: list.txt
>===================================================================

>+911bg
> amazondotcom

SInce we're using the en-US version of the plugin, we only need to specify its name in the list.txt file. We don't need the amazondotcom.xml file in bg/browser/searchplugins/. Please delete it.

>-answers
>-creativecommons
>-eBay
>+diribg
> google

Same thing as with amazondotcom.xml

>-yahoo
>+pe-bg
>+portalbgdict
>+wikipedia

Please rename the wikipedia plug-in to wikipedia-bg and add the xml file to the searchplugins directory. You can use the en-US file as a base for this: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/browser/locales/en-US/searchplugins/wikipedia.xml


>Index: pe-bg.xml
>===================================================================

>+<Param name="cid" value="3" />
>+<Param name="firefox" value="1" />
>+<Param name="search_q" value="{searchTerms}" />

Same as above, please indent this line with 2 spaces.

>Index: portalbgdict.xml
>===================================================================

>+<Param name="encin" value="windows-1251" />
>+<Param name="encout" value="windows-1251" />
>+<Param name="translate" value="firefox" />
>+<Param name="word" value="{searchTerms}" />

Same as above, please indent this line with 2 spaces.

Thanks again.
Attachment #344480 - Flags: review-
Can we use this favicon in the portal.bg/dict's IMage element? I improved the quality a bit (I hope).
I think 911.bg is their brand so I leave the ".bg" part. For example, their company is 911.BG Ltd <http://911.bg/a2/contacts.asp> <http://translate.google.bg/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2F911.bg%2Fa2%2Fcontacts.asp&hl=bg&ie=UTF-8&sl=en&tl=bg> and they use (c) "911.bg".

The question about naming diri.bg is tough one. dir.bg is very inconsistent in naming Diri with latin or cyrillic letters and in including or not the ".bg" part. So I think the short name better be Дири.бг which is the title of page diri.bg and use Дири in description which is what they use frequently when referring to this service.

I couldn't find difference between your favicon for portal.bg/dict and the original. Probably you accidentally submitted the original.
Attachment #344451 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Attachment #344480 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Attachment #344594 - Flags: review?
Comment on attachment 344594 [details] [diff] [review]
Patch for updating searchplugins

r=stas
Attachment #344594 - Flags: review? → review+
Ok, I'm back online :) I asked Gandalf to r+ this patch, b/c I was suddenly disconnected. r=me :)

(In reply to comment #42)
> I think 911.bg is their brand so I leave the ".bg" part.

Sure, thanks for clarification.

> 
> The question about naming diri.bg is tough one. dir.bg is very inconsistent in
> naming Diri with latin or cyrillic letters and in including or not the ".bg"
> part. So I think the short name better be Дири.бг which is the title of page
> diri.bg and use Дири in description which is what they use frequently when
> referring to this service.

OK, that's reasonable.
(In reply to comment #42)

> I couldn't find difference between your favicon for portal.bg/dict and the
> original. Probably you accidentally submitted the original.

This is what I see. This is just a nit though, the patch that you submitted looks good and if we really want to, we can change the icon later.

Can you land this patch today or do you want me to do it? (The code freeze is at midnight PDT.)
Patch is committed in CVS.

I'm sure there is no need for hints but given that code freeze is after some
hours I can't help reminding turning on bg for 3.0.4 :-)
Closing as fixed, per comment 28 and comment 46. The hg rev is 9fca458df95d, cvs rev is 1.3. The final setup is:

general search: 
* google 
* diri.bg (permission: true, comment 20)

e-commerce:
* pe-bg.com (permission: true, comment 27)
* 911.bg  (permission: true, comment 28)
* amazon.com

specific interest search:
* wikipedia (bg)
* portal.bg/dict (permission: true, comment 26)

Please verify. Thanks!
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 13 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
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