Closed Bug 638437 Opened 13 years ago Closed 13 years ago

Determine optimal height for tabs on windows

Categories

(Firefox :: Theme, defect)

Product:
Firefox
Component:
Theme
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
normal

Tracking

()

Status:
RESOLVED WORKSFORME
Tracking Flags:
Tracking Status
blocking2.0 --- -

People

(Reporter: Terepin, Unassigned)

References

Details

(Keywords: uiwanted, Whiteboard: [see comment 16])

Attachments

(4 files)

Showing Proposed Height Reduction Variations
4.51 KB, image/png
Details
Alternative (from comment 25)
62.63 KB, image/png
Details
Alternative, but as old vs current vs proposed
112.20 KB, image/png
Details
Weird line on the title bar.
14.69 KB, image/png
Details 
User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:2.0b13pre) Gecko/20110303 Firefox/4.0b13pre
Build Identifier: 

At least 2 pixels need to go away.

Reproducible: Always
Blocks: 570279
blocking2.0: --- → ?
Version: unspecified → Trunk
2pixels would nowhere near be enough. We're talking about 6px at the least.
(In reply to comment #1)
> 2pixels would nowhere near be enough. We're talking about 6px at the least.

+1 agreed and i think this should be a blocker :\
I can agree with this, the tabs are far too tall.
3 or 4px should be enough.
I vote for 6px
I vote for 14px.
This makes the Close Tab Button Position/Spacing (regardless of Hover State) look weird, too - at least on WinXP/Royal Theme.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
Keywords: uiwanted
I have no problem with the shape of the new tabs the height just needs to be changed. this definitely needs to block.
The fact that the tabs aren't so much rounded is much better... 

But, wouldn't be better if Nav&Search boxes along with buttons to get the same border-radius? So much rounded just sickens me, but I guess that's just me.
apparently there is a code to make them smaller? can i post it here?
Sure, why not? And if would be able to post it as patch it would be even better.
.tabbrowser-tab, .tabs-newtab-button {
   -moz-border-image: url("chrome://browser/skin/tabbrowser/tab.png") 4 3 2 3 / 4px 3px 2px 3px repeat stretch !important;
 }

found this from http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/896934-meet-firefox-40-beta-12/page__st__4905
I vote for 3 pixels tall!!
Fwiw, they look a bit worse, but are largely more readable and usable, so the change has its advantages. Please don't trust the OMGCHANGE effect of the first 10 seconds.

Could you please post a screenshot about comment 7 issue in XP theme?
Assuming Dao's suggestion was a joke. I showed the proposed differences in tab heights.
I guess I might as well repeat myself: 

The tabs ought to be of such a height that the
close button border should be equidistant from the top, bottom and right-hand
edges of the tab.

In my opinion, anyways.

p.s.: I'm loving the sarcasm, guys.
(In reply to comment #15)
> Created attachment 516598 [details]
> Showing Proposed Height Reduction Variations
> 
> Assuming Dao's suggestion was a joke. I showed the proposed differences in tab
> heights.

6x seems too much.
We only added a single pixel in bug 570279, and it was intentional. As described, this bug is INVALID since the assertions in the description are kinda ridiculous. It definitely doesn't block.

I'm not closing debate here - please feel free to do so (constructively) in dev-apps-firefox or dev-usability. I'm sure Stephen will meet you there.

Or make a theme if you don't like ours - that's why we support them.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
blocking2.0: ? → -
Closed: 13 years ago
Resolution: --- → INVALID
(In reply to comment #6)
> I vote for 14px.

Oh my bad. You meant a 14px tall tab as opposed to a 14px reduction in height.
Reopening based on comment 16 which was productive and constructive.
Resummarizing so it's not as offensively titled.
Still not a blocker.
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: INVALID → ---
Summary: Tabs are ridiculously and uselessly tall → Determine optimal height for tabs on windows
Whiteboard: [see comment 16]
(In reply to comment #12)
> .tabbrowser-tab, .tabs-newtab-button {
>    -moz-border-image: url("chrome://browser/skin/tabbrowser/tab.png") 4 3 2 3 /
> 4px 3px 2px 3px repeat stretch !important;
>  }
> 
> found this from
> http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/896934-meet-firefox-40-beta-12/page__st__4905

That's a bit too much. 4px 3px 3px 3px is perfect!
not a blocker though. minusing.
Status: REOPENED → NEW
I kinda have to agree with Mike, make a theme if you dot like them or hope for a change in a future firefox version. I personally could get used to the new tabs.
(In reply to comment #23)
> I kinda have to agree with Mike, make a theme if you dot like them or hope for
> a change in a future firefox version. I personally could get used to the new
> tabs.

I could live with them till 4.0.1 or 5
(In reply to comment #21)
> (In reply to comment #12)
> > .tabbrowser-tab, .tabs-newtab-button {
> >    -moz-border-image: url("chrome://browser/skin/tabbrowser/tab.png") 4 3 2 3 /
> > 4px 3px 2px 3px repeat stretch !important;
> >  }
> > 
> > found this from
> > http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/896934-meet-firefox-40-beta-12/page__st__4905
> 
> That's a bit too much. 4px 3px 3px 3px is perfect!

Agreed. It also meets the requirements set by comment 16:
.tabbrowser-tab, .tabs-newtab-button {
   -moz-border-image: url("chrome://browser/skin/tabbrowser/tab.png") 4 3 3 3 /
4px 3px 3px 3px repeat stretch !important;
 }
(In reply to comment #25)
> What do you think is better?
> http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1156/screenc.png

i think the 2nd one is too small of tabs to be honest.
(In reply to comment #23)
> I kinda have to agree with Mike, make a theme if you dot like them or hope for
> a change in a future firefox version. I personally could get used to the new
> tabs.

That's an ignorant opinion. Firefox is very much a community driven project. It's up to the community to speak out on changes they'd like to see or changes they're opposed to. It's not always done in the right way, but the answer is never just to adopt a new theme. And it's for that very reason that decisions like this should always be transparent. Though transparency has become an issue of late, that's a whole other issue for another place. All in all this bug has been productive thus far. The community has suggested height changes, provided visual guides and even a userstyle.
(In reply to comment #26)
> (In reply to comment #21)
> > (In reply to comment #12)
> > > .tabbrowser-tab, .tabs-newtab-button {
> > >    -moz-border-image: url("chrome://browser/skin/tabbrowser/tab.png") 4 3 2 3 /
> > > 4px 3px 2px 3px repeat stretch !important;
> > >  }
> > > 
> > > found this from
> > > http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/896934-meet-firefox-40-beta-12/page__st__4905
> > 
> > That's a bit too much. 4px 3px 3px 3px is perfect!
> 
> Agreed. It also meets the requirements set by comment 16:
> .tabbrowser-tab, .tabs-newtab-button {
>    -moz-border-image: url("chrome://browser/skin/tabbrowser/tab.png") 4 3 3 3 /
> 4px 3px 3px 3px repeat stretch !important;
>  }

Yup, that looks perfect.
The space beneath and on the right side of the firefox button should also be of equal size in my opinion. 

The proposed "4 3 3 3" makes the favicon vertically misaligned, but that can perhaps be adjusted. Otherwise I would suggest "5 3 2" based on some fiddling in the userchrome css.
Is this going to be reduced or are we stuck with it in the RC and final?
(In reply to comment #27)
> (In reply to comment #25)
> > What do you think is better?
> > http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1156/screenc.png
> 
> i think the 2nd one is too small of tabs to be honest.

I don't think, see http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/7162/screen2i.png
I like the modified new.
Modified new, definitely.
The old one looks really cramped and the new one looks too unnecessarily tall.
The modified one looks really better. We should stick with that.
(In reply to comment #35)
> The modified one looks really better. We should stick with that.

Agreed but something tells me if we do patch this they wont approve it because the developers like how it currently is.
(In reply to comment #35)
> The modified one looks really better. We should stick with that.

Agreed but something tells me if we do patch this they wont approve it because the developers like how it currently is.
Attaching since easy to miss embedded links / some people will only look at the existing attachment.
old tab height was good, and new tabs are just 3px taller.

Reducing the height by 3px should be right
with the tabs being smaller it is harder to read i think they should just leave it how it is.. easier on the eyes.
(In reply to comment #41)
> with the tabs being smaller it is harder to read i think they should just leave
> it how it is.. easier on the eyes.

1px shouldn't make a difference.
it seems kinda late for this since RC1 will be landing soon.
(In reply to comment #41)
> with the tabs being smaller it is harder to read i think they should just leave
> it how it is.. easier on the eyes.

What on Earth are you on about? Such a move would clearly be contrary to one of
the fundamental goals of Firefox 4 which was screen real-estate. Over inflated
tabs are beneficiary to no one. And if you have an issue reading streamlined
tabs, perhaps you should be looking at increasing the DPI setting on your OS
overall.

Please note that at this point, anything short of a patch adds nothing to this
bug. Particularly from someone that has previously posted, especially from
someone that has posted over ten times.
lets just reduce it 2px so we can stop fighting over this bug. I like Ed's idea.
(In reply to comment #21)
> That's a bit too much. 4px 3px 3px 3px is perfect!
Right and left padding of 3px each make app tabs wider than new tab button. For a good looking shape 2px may be used.
is there someone who can create a patch for this?
Just going back to former height will do.
I use this code controling the height, with former height(original),it worked fine, but now the favicon is too close to the bottom, who knows how to adjust that?
.tabbrowser-tab, .tabbrowser-tabs {
  height: 21px !important;}
(In reply to comment #18)
> We only added a single pixel in bug 570279, and it was intentional.

(In reply to comment #40)
> old tab height was good, and new tabs are just 3px taller.
> 
> Reducing the height by 3px should be right

Who is correct here? Based on the images posted here, the change was 3 px.

Assuming it was intended to be 1 px, everyone will be made happier if they just reduce it by 2, since that was intended by devs, and reduces the size, as requested here.
(In reply to comment #16)
> I guess I might as well repeat myself: 
> 
> The tabs ought to be of such a height that the
> close button border should be equidistant from the top, bottom and right-hand
> edges of the tab.
> 
> In my opinion, anyways.
> 
> p.s.: I'm loving the sarcasm, guys.

Why don't move the close button? and a lot of people(including me) hid the close button to avoid misclicking when switching tabs.
(In reply to comment #43)
> it seems kinda late for this since RC1 will be landing soon.
They choose the last minute to make this stupid change, hoping users don't have time to respond in an attempt to get by, that's just wrong on so many levels.
I agree the modified new version looks so much better than it currently is. Right now, with tabs-in-titlebar, the titlebar of Firefox looks so much bigger than other Windows applications. It just looks jarring from a system integration standpoint.
Plus new tabs are taking away precious pixels from page content, which is contra-productive and it's decreasing the point of tabs being in title bar.
Can't really tell if this is related to the height increase, that I personally don't like.

On Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:2.0b13pre) Gecko/20110303 Firefox/4.0b13pre ID:20110303030406 I can see this odd line with these STRs:

Click twice on the title bar of a Minefield window to maximize it.
Click once on the are between "Open a new tab" and "List all tabs"

Is this related to the change in height for the tabs or an entirely different bug?
I'm apologizing everyone here and over MozillaZine forums for writing harsh description. That wasn't intentional, but it kinda happened. So, sorry.
(In reply to comment #55)
> Created attachment 516685 [details]
> Weird line on the title bar.

FWIW Looking at the screen capture once again I think that line should be the ideal tab height at least on "Classic" theme.

My 2¢
Definitely too much wasted space above and below text, 1 px off needs to come off each top and bottom.
I've spoken with the design team and the implementors and they've confirmed that they have already determined the optimal height for tabs on Windows and this is it. Given that, I'm resolving as Worksforme.

Thanks to those of you who made cogent arguments, offered CSS hacks, attached mock-ups, and were otherwise a positive influence here.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 13 years ago → 13 years ago
Resolution: --- → WORKSFORME
(In reply to comment #7)
(In reply to comment #14)
Filed Bug 638625 for the Close Button.
(In reply to comment #59)
> I've spoken with the design team and the implementors and they've confirmed
> that they have already determined the optimal height for tabs on Windows and
> this is it.

No offense,but,so much for asking on the Firefox Builds board?
Why such a change at the last moment? IMHO,it may be just cosmetic,but gives Fx4 an "old" look,and -even worse- resembles too much of IE.
(In reply to comment #59)
> I've spoken with the design team and the implementors and they've confirmed
> that they have already determined the optimal height for tabs on Windows and
> this is it. Given that, I'm resolving as Worksforme.
> 
> Thanks to those of you who made cogent arguments, offered CSS hacks, attached
> mock-ups, and were otherwise a positive influence here.


How is this the optimum height? What is the rationale for this? I understand increasing the height of tabs in Windows XP to accommodate Fitt's law for tabs-in-titlebar. But this height in any other operating system is ABSURD. It is inconsistent with the titlebar height of other windows and it constantly makes me think someone turned on the accessibility options on my computer and made everything larger.

Not to mention, there is now a big gap between the Minefield button/Caption buttons and the navigation toolbar.

I am sorry, this is supposed to be a open-source program that welcomes community input. The community at Mozillazine CLEARLY indicated that the tabs were too high, but instead they were shot down by a UI design team that likes to make last minute changes and prevent the community from testing out said changes for any reasonable amount of time before it hits release candidate. This isn't the case of a few vocal people being obnoxious. It's an entire forum community, historically passionate about Mozilla developement, that's voicing its displeasure at this change and I feel like we are not being heard at all regarding this matter.
>I'm resolving as Worksforme.
Unfortunately, seeing that you, that shithead leading the team and a couple of other self-important morons are the accessibility 'experts', I can't help but congratulate you for a job well done.
Keep it coming!
(In reply to comment #63)
> >I'm resolving as Worksforme.
> Unfortunately, seeing that you, that shithead leading the team and a couple of
> other self-important morons are the accessibility 'experts', I can't help but
> congratulate you for a job well done.
> Keep it coming!

On behalf of the Fx user community that post here constructively and properly, I'd like to apologize for the very few that behave like cretins.
If developers behave like cretins (and stubborn at that), users will obviously follow. And yes, this was a totally brainded change. The lack of rounding is fine with me, but the height is far... far... FAR from optimal.
This is typical Asa Dotzler. I remember when he forced an horrible change on the Firefox menu "because the vast majority of Windows XP users used the Luna theme, and almost no one used the Classic theme". So the Firefox menus looked like **** on the Classic theme, and damn those who used it. Now it's this horrible tabs, changed at the last minute. It's an ugly Ego trip, nothing more, and the Firefox community has no say about it again...
Guys attacking people serves nothing or no one. Let's keep any arguments constructive and focused. No matter what criticisms you have of the management of Firefox as a product, this is not the place to air them.

Ultimately on this occasion, the buck stops with the UX Team and they've decided that the 3px increase is concurrent with their goals. If you want to mount opposition to this decision, do so towards the UX Team directly in their group. Please note that if you're posting here, you're more than able to edit your userchrome.css or install a userstyle. That in itself should at least placate you a little bit so as that you're able to form less emotional-styled responses.
(In reply to comment #55)
> Created attachment 516685 [details]
> Weird line on the title bar.
> 
> Can't really tell if this is related to the height increase, that I personally
> don't like.
> 
> On Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:2.0b13pre) Gecko/20110303 Firefox/4.0b13pre
> ID:20110303030406 I can see this odd line with these STRs:
> 
> Click twice on the title bar of a Minefield window to maximize it.
> Click once on the are between "Open a new tab" and "List all tabs"
> 
> Is this related to the change in height for the tabs or an entirely different
> bug?

I see this on Aurora. Wasn't it fixed somewhere?
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