74247 - Fizzilla should store profiles in $HOME/Library/Mozilla

Status: VERIFIED FIXED

(Core Graveyard :: Profile: BackEnd, enhancement)

Description

[J Luh]

Linux uses $HOME/.mozilla to store profiles.

Mac OS 9 uses a "Mozilla" folder in the "Documents" Folder.

Fizzilla (Mac OS X) uses $HOME/Documents/Mozilla.

Mozilla profiles aren't really "documents," so maybe Fizzilla should follow Unix
and use $HOME/.mozilla to store profile information. Mac OS X home directories
also have a $HOME/Library/ directory that other applications are using to store
application data.

Problem with $HOME/.mozilla is that it is not visible to users using the GUI Finder.

Apple developer docs for Mac OS X probably provide further guidance on where to
store application data.

Comment 1

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

I'll try to find out where the reccomended location is. 

Comment 2

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

there will be no ".mozilla" on macos of any variety. bad geek! bad! bad! no 
cookie for you!

Documents is a valid location for all flavors of macos. recommend WONTFIX

Comment 3

[J Luh]

Fair enough; $HOME/.mozilla is no good. But how about somewhere in
$HOME/Library? Just because the "Documents" folder exists on both Mac OS
versions doesn't seem to me to be a good enough reason to keep profiles there.
To me, "documents" means files that the user creates, edits, or views directly.
Mozilla profiles contain just about everything but "documents."

Also, Mozilla Classic uses /Documents (root level), while Mac OS X Mozilla uses
$HOME/Documents. So it's really not the case that the current profile location
is uniform across Mac OS versions.

Instead of marking this "won't fix" right away, how about leaving it open for
further comment?

Comment 4

[Steve Dagley]

Turn on multiple users under Mac OS 9 and you'll get multiple instances of the 
Documents folder (stored in the Users folder I believe)

Comment 5

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

And we'll create a separate "Mozilla" folder in each one of them (which is the
right thing to do) without even knowing it. The Folder Manager hides this from us.
Back to OSX: Using $HOME/Library/ is probably right since that's where Apple's
own mail client sticks its accounts folder. If Apple programs are the true
Romans...  

Comment 6

[Adam]

I agree that the '/Home/<User>/Library/' directory would be the best place to
store the Mozilla profile/data folder. It keeps the user's Documents folder
clean, and it's the directory where users expect to go to clean up preferences
and application data files. Maybe in the future you can get extravagant and use
the '/Home/<User>/Library/Caches/' directory for the cache files and
'/Home/<User>/Library/Internet Plug-Ins/' for plug-ins, but this is a good start.

Comment 7

[Boris Zbarsky [:bzbarsky]]

*** Bug 74939 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 8

[Adam Masri]

Tonight I managed to find an excellent guide to the Mac OS X filesystem in
Apple's Tech Publications.

http://www.devworld.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/SystemOverview/SystemOverview/FileSystem/How_the_Fil_s_Organized.html

According to this document, the proper location for Mozilla's stuff would be:

~/Library/Preferences/Mozilla/

Within Mozilla/, everything could be stored. This would make it easy on a user
by user basis to modify their Moz installation, or even throw out the folder and
start over. I think this structure would keep things tidy, without forcing us to
search all over the filesystem looking for preference, cache, and other files in
random directories.

- Adam

Comment 9

[Andrew Thompson]

We should use the ToolBox call FindFolder and pass in kPreferencesFolderType to 
find the preferences folder. This works on Mac OS X, Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9 single 
user and Mac OS 9 multiple user, as far as I know.

See this technote:

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1186.html

I dunno why we use the Documents folder at present. Netscape 4 didn't. I'm 
guessing someone made a decision to increase the discoverability of profiles at 
some stage? There should be a constant for this folder somewhere too.

Comment 10

[J Luh]

I think ~/Library/Mozilla is a better place than the preferences folder. Other
applications (incl OmniWeb) use the Library folder. Mozilla profiles aren't
really preferences files, anyway. See

http://www.devworld.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/SystemOverview/SystemOverview/SoftwareConfig/iThe_Preferences_System.html

"The assumption with user preferences is that they are not critical; if somehow
they are lost, the application can recreate the default set of preferences."

Comment 11

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

I agree the Mozilla folder shouldn't go in prefs, which is why we moved it into 
Documents in the first place. ~/Library seems like a valid place, but under no 
circumstances should it go into ~/Library/Preferences

Comment 12

[Steve Dagley]

So does one consider their downloaded mail to be "preferences" or "documents"?  
The latter is one of the arguments that drove the Mozilla profile folders into 
the user's Documents folder.

Comment 13

[J Luh]

Mozilla profiles are not "preferences" or "documents." You don't have just the
Preferences folder and the Documents folder to choose from. I think ~/Mozilla or
~/Library/Mozilla would be better than either one.

Comment 14

[John Bafford]

I don't consider mail to be either preferences or documents. Ditto with web and
news cache. ~/Library/ is a better place for it, IMHO.

Mac OS X has multiple user support in the OS; is multiple-profile support in
Mozilla really necessary?

Mozilla stores stuff that are clearly preferences in ~/Documents/Mozilla/*.
Things like bookmarks, cookies, history, etc, are all preferences, and as such,
belong in a preferences folder.

I think a lot of users are going to see things this way. You have to go three
directories deep into ~/Documents/Mozilla/ before you get to real content. Most
users aren't going to bother doing that; they'll think to themselves, "Ok, I
didn't save any mozilla documents. Why do I have this umpteen-meg directory
here, then?" and delete it. And then, *poof*, there go their preferences.

Mozilla ought to do what OmniWeb does - stick everything in a subdirectory in
~/Library/. And clean up the structure, so when people open the Mozilla folder,
it's pretty obvious that it contains important stuff.

~/Mozilla/ should definately not be used. That's like dumping your junk on my
front lawn. I like my home directory to be clean.

Comment 15

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

what if I, as a user, want multiple browsing prefs w/in one account? One for pr0n 
surfing and another with all my normal work bookmarks. Can't create two users, 
because I don't own the box, etc etc....

it still makes sense.

Comment 16

[Andrew Thompson]

Apologies. My main point was to ask people to use FindGolder rather than paths. 
Just because paths are now possible because Mac OS X is Unix doesn't mean we 
should take a step back and actually use them. If there's no FindFolder constant 
for ~/Library at present, then please try to find one for ~ and make a simple one 
hop path.

This *is* important. When Apple introduced multiple users on Mac OS 9 
applications that used FindFolder to save their prefs files kept right on working 
without any changes. Similarly, Apple localise folder name. On Classic Mac OS 
System Folder becomes Dossier System (apologies I dunno where the accents go).

Mozilla profile's aren't prefs, this is true. The contents also isn't terribly 
interesting. About the only thing that's editable in there is prefs.js I believe. 

If possible we should seperate the things that can be recreated (MozRegistry.dat, 
prefs.js etc) from those that can't (primarily email). That way people can delete 
their preferences without destroying anything important. But failing that I agree 
with Mike. Don't put it in preferences.

Comment 17

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

> Mac OS X has multiple user support in the OS; is multiple-profile support in
> Mozilla really necessary?

Yes. With multiple user support in the OS, how long does it take you to logout
of one user and the start over as another? It's a royal pain.

As far as the data in a profile dir, I'd say that not even prefs.js is
disposable. You'll lose all your mail account info. For that reason, we should
keep it away from prefs.

I think the data should go in <User>/Library/Mozilla. That would make it clear
to people that this data is not prefs, and it would not litter their Documents
folder. We just need to know the proper way to find the <User>/Library dir.

Comment 18

[Henri Sivonen (:hsivonen)]

Metooing ~/Library/Mozilla/. (Not had-coded in English, of course.)

However, the cache is disposable and could therefore go in
~/Library/Caches/Mozilla/.

Comment 19

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

here's how to find ~/Library

SInt16 vRefNum;
SInt32 dirID;
OSStatus err = FindFolder(kUserDomain, kDomainLibraryFolderType, true, &vRefNum, 
&dirID);

(thanks to [e-mail])

Comment 20

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

Thanks - ~/Library it is. Where are kUserDomain and kDomainLibraryFolderType
defined? It's not in Univ Interfaces 3.3.2.

Comment 21

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

they must require later headers.

Comment 22

[Adam Masri]

I'm a Mac OS X user, as well as a consultant responsible for the upkeep of many
Macs at many different businesses. I want my job simple. In a perfect world,
there would be a Library folder in OS 9 that could be discovered thru the
previously mentioned FindFolder routine. But there isn't.

I tell my users to save Documents in their Documents folder. In OS X, it's even
one of the items listed in the mini save pane attached to windows, when you're
not viewing the entire directory structure. This makes users' lives easier. If a
user is sorting thru their Documents directory, and they come across a Mozilla
folder that they didn't make, they would probably figure it was trash and delete
it. This is the reason I hate having Moz for OS 9 save its prefs & config files
here.

In OS X, the Library folder makes perfect sense. If we decide to save here, we
can use system variables to locate the actual directory names.

http://www.devworld.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/SystemOverview/SystemOverview/FileSystem/How_the_Fil_s_Organized.html#BAJBJHFD

The annoying thing about this is that then we have one location where this type
of data is saved in OS 9, and a different location in OS X. Not terrible, but
less than perfect.

Mike, you mentioned, "I agree the Mozilla folder shouldn't go in prefs, which is
why we moved it into Documents in the first place. ~/Library seems like a valid
place, but under no circumstances should it go into ~/Library/Preferences". Why?
I searched Bugzilla, and cannot find anyone else reporting this as a bug, or any
comments on this issue. I'm afraid I don't understand why System Folder:
Preferences: Mozilla under MacOS 9, and ~/Library/Preferences/Mozilla under X
are so bad? The good thing about this location is that it's similar on both OS
versions, and Preferences is properly dealt with under Multiple Users in OS 9
and OS X. We're also not shoving a folder full of configuration junk in front of
users who really don't wish to see such stuff. Even Linux hides it by naming
with a leading period. Even they wouldn't stick this right in the user's face.

If Mozilla only ran on OS X, I'd agree that ~/Library/Mozilla is the right spot.
But since Moz runs on OS 9 too, I'd suggest that we move this folder to
~/Library/Preferences/Mozilla . Depending on the outcome of this bug, I may file
another electing for the similar change to OS 9.

One last thing: Mozilla does not explode if you drag the Mozilla folder to the
trash. That's what the comment in Apple's tech pubs was mentioning. Items in the
Mozilla folder set "prefs" (of a fashion) for the particular user account logged
in at the time. Makes a heck of a lot more sense to me to file this in
"Preferences" than "Documents".

- Adam

Comment 23

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

adam,

what you seem to be overlooking is the fact that dragging things in prefs to the 
trash should not result in significant data loss for the user. Dragging the 
"Mozilla" folder to the trash will result in _significant_ data loss, especially 
if they use POP mail. Mail? gone. Bookmarks? gone. What could be worse?

Comment 24

[Adam Masri]

Another way to look at this is that trashing the Mozilla folder sets Mozilla
back to its defaults; it once again asks you for setup info, as if you just
installed it. Other apps that have their Prefs files thrown out might also
return to default settings.

Since there is no "Library" in OS 9, and for sake of simpliciy, I'd say return
the Mozilla folder to Prefs. Netscape used the Prefs folder for years; I don't
remember hearing any complaints about it. However, I find the Documents folder
an obnoxious location for the Mozilla folder.

Mike, obviously you've got a concern in mind. What was the big internal debate
that led to moving this to Documents?

- Adam

Comment 25

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

adam, i just told you. read my comment dated 2001-04-12 13:50. Major data loss is 
the problem.

Comment 26

[Andrew Thompson]

I just checked Folders.h from UI 3.4. The constant for the libraries folder is 
meaningless on Mac OS 9 according to the comments. I was going to suggest the 
Application Support folder, because that exists on Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X, but I 
realised its not multi-user on either OS.

So I looked at what folders are multi-user on Mac OS 9 and came up with only 
Documents and Preferences as possibilities. (there are others, but they're things 
like Apple Menu Items). :(

Looks like leaving things in the documents folder on Mac OS 9 is the way to go. 
In which case we should rename the folder "Mozilla Profiles" or even "Mozilla 
Profiles And Email" to make it clearer to people what they might be about to 
trash. The fact its just "Mozilla" (or "Netscape") is a part of the problem, I 
think.

Comment 27

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

We certainly don't have to do the same thing on OS9 as OSX. A simple check for
which system we're running and we can act accordingly. My opinion is still that
/Home/<User>/Library/Mozilla is the way to go for OSX and Documents/Mozilla is
best for OS9. I think lordpixel's idea that we change the name of this folder to
something that the user will be less inclined to trash is good. Having the name
of this dir change causes some problems for directory service and profile mgr,
but none too impossible.

Comment 28

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

-> 0.9.3

Comment 29

[Patrick C. Beard]

Mozilla settings such as bookmarks are really equivalent to documents, hence the 
decision was made to store user visible data in Documents. I wouldn't be against 
storing less critical settings in ~/Library/Preferences, but I see no reason to 
change our use of the Documents folder. Not that this is a good precedent, but 
Microsoft Office creates a "Microsoft User Data" folder in the Documents folder 
on OS 9.

Comment 30

[J Luh]

I think I made this point two or three times in earlier comments, but it 
seems to have not gotten through: Mozilla profiles are not "documents." If 
you think they are, you've been working with computers too long. I use my 
documents folder to store actual documents (letters, papers, resumes, 
spreadsheets, etc.), and I could do without the clutter in the documents 
folder. If you don't want to change the default location, how about letting 
the user select (at install time) the location for the profiles folder?

Comment 31

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

> My opinion is still that /Home/<User>/Library/Mozilla is the way to go for OSX
> and Documents/Mozilla is best for OS9.

My opinion still has not changed ;-) This is what I'm doing.

Comment 32

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

beta stopper. we should get this fixed before we go with a wide distribution if
we plan on changing it from what it is now (which we do, sorry beard).

Comment 33

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

Attachment: patch to add support for user lib dir

Comment 34

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

The patch does the job. Tested under 9 and it used the Mozilla folder in
Documents. Under OSX, it made a Mozilla dir in $HOME/Library and all was well.
Bear in mind that if you have a Documents:Mozilla that you've been using on a
machine under 9, this will make no attempt to recognize it, migrate it, or
anything clever like that. OS 9 and OS X are considered separate worlds -
although  you may be able to trick it with an alias.

Comment 35

[Mike Pinkerton (not reading bugmail)]

r=pink. 

is there no better way to gestalt for this than checking the system version
against 10? I guess not, but in case there is we should try to find it.

Comment 36

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

Checking the system version is icky but, looking in Gestalt.h at the various
selectors for Folder Manager, I can't see a more specific test. 

Comment 37

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

Simon, can I get a sr of this?

Comment 38

[Simon Fraser [no longer active]]

sr=sfraser

Comment 39

[Asa Dotzler [:asa]]

a= [e-mail] for checkin to the trunk.
(on behalf of drivers)

Comment 40

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

In doing testing before checking this in, I ran into a horrible new problem.
Basically, if the profile mgr dialog is not shown when starting up, the program
will hang. The problem happens whether this patch is in place or not on a tree
pulled this morning. The reason this makes me hesitant to check this in is that,
when starting the program for the first time with this code in place, there will
be no profiles, so the profile mgr dialog will not be shown, and the program
will hang. This is only the case with the Carbon build on OS X and I think it's
a new problem. I never ran into this in the testing of this code before.

Comment 41

[Conrad Carlen (not reading bugmail)]

Fix checked in.

If you want to keep using profiles in the old location (share the profile with a
classic build), this works:
When mozilla creates %HOME/Library/Mozilla for the first time, quit, delete the
contents of the new Mozilla dir, copy "Application Registry" from the old
location (or alias it preserving the name), and it'll use the old profiles.

Comment 42

[Chris Petersen]

Marking verified in the June 13th build (2001061314)