985308 - Missing "Space" and "Separator" in Customize screen

Status: RESOLVED WONTFIX

(Firefox :: Toolbars and Customization, defect)

Description

[Ricardo]

Attachment: MissingSpacers1.png

User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/29.0 (Beta/Release)
Build ID: 20140318013849

Steps to reproduce:

Using FF 29b1, the new "Australis" theme is missing "Flexible Space", "Space" and "Separator" as available items in Customize screen.


Actual results:

The new "Australis" theme is missing "Flexible Space", "Space" and "Separator" as available items in Customize screen.


Expected results:

The items "Flexible Space", "Space" and "Separator" should be available in Customize screen, because they have great utility when customizing bars.

They are more useful, imo, in Bookmarks Bar or Menu Bar when used to create a secure distance between icons/menus that should not be accidentally clicked. (Look at screenshot)

Comment 1

[Ricardo]

Attachment: MissingSpacers2.png -- usage example

Comment 2

[Matthew N. [:MattN]]

I thought there was a bug already on this that got wontfixed but I'm not finding it at the moment.

There are extensions to bring these items back. One of them is https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/classicthemerestorer/

(Quoting :Gijs Kruitbosch from bug 873501 comment #8)
> We discussed this in the triage meeting today, and the preliminary plan is
> to not have separators, springs and spaces in the customization palette, but
> not to remove them either.

Stephen, has the plan changed at all or is this wontfix?

Comment 3

[Ricardo]

It doesn't make sense to have support for them and hide them from ui, moreover because it should not cause any performance degradation or whatever, and because it was always there. In my opinion, their icons could be reduced in width (ref. MissingSpacers1.png).

Comment 4

[(mostly gone) XtC4UaLL [:xtc4uall]]

FWIW, see also Bug 940012 Comment 5.

Comment 5

[Ricardo]

The thing people/devs don't seem to understand is that these spacers *are* already there, they don't need to be added back as a whole new feature. We merely need only 3 icons in customization palette.
I would even have made a patch, but don't have any knowledge about mozilla source.

Comment 6

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Ricardo from comment #5)
> The thing people/devs don't seem to understand is that these spacers *are*
> already there, they don't need to be added back as a whole new feature. We
> merely need only 3 icons in customization palette.
> I would even have made a patch, but don't have any knowledge about mozilla
> source.

No, because we need to have some kind of magical node that doesn't disappear when you drag it out (unlikely literally everything else in customize mode), and we also need to make the placeholder sizing behaviour work for inserting them, which is non-trivial because it depends on the size of the elements, which isn't fixed for things like flexible spaces. We'd also have to write tests and ensure it works correctly on all platforms, and we'd have to make them understandable and visible in customize mode.

It really isn't a case of "[they] are already there".

Anyway, all of this is completely orthogonal to whether we should be shipping with these enabled by default. These elements are really unintuitive and hard to 'get' for average users, and whether they should be allotted UI in the default customization screen isn't at all a clear "yes". Hence asking Stephen.

Comment 7

[Ricardo]

Ok, I don't know what code Australis removed/changed, but there is at least one extension¹ that re-add the three items by simply adding the buttons (or almost that); it has some kirks, however.

About the "unintuitive" part, I think you mean the user won't know the amount of space it will add, but imo, it does not matter as it was always like that. We old users are used to such spacers since early Netscape/Opera versions without difficulties.

Anyway, "Separator" item seems to be the most obvious and easy to understand, and it is present in almost all programs that allows toolbars to be customized.

¹ http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=13328405#p13328405

Comment 10

[Jakob]

Workaround: 
It is still possible to insert new separators but this requires editing in about:config. First create a backup of your firefox profile just to be sure. Open about:config, goto attribute "browser.uiCustomization.state" and add numbered values like "customizableui-special-separator1", "customizableui-special-separator2", "customizableui-special-separator3" to e.g. "nav-bar" array. Then restart firefox and the new separators should appear. It's possible to move them, too. At least this worked for me using firefox 29 at linux.

Cheers

Comment 11

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Matthew N. [:MattN] (behind on reviews) from comment #2)
> I thought there was a bug already on this that got wontfixed but I'm not finding it at the moment.

Bug 873501 comment #1?
> We don't want these elements available by default in the palette,
> and we should take them out where they already exist in currentsets.

Comment 12

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(1) "Separator" in Australis
    Separator is embed in an ToolBar Button such as "Edit Controls" : X Cut | □ Copy　| ■ Paste.
    So, "Restore of Separator" may produce confusion in ToolBar UI.
(2) "Flexible Space" in Australis
    As written in comment #2, "Flexible Space" can be added by enabling "Classic Theme Restorer".
    And, the "added Flexible Space by Classic Theme Restorer" works well as expected,
    even after disabling "Classic Theme Restorer",
    because "Flexible Space" support itself is never killed by Australis.
    This "Flexible Space created by Classic Theme Restorer" worked pretty well on toolbars
    added by "PrefBar" extension and "The Addon Bar(restored)" extention.
    "Flexible Space" is pretty usefull for "centering of a group of toolba button" even in Australis.
(3) "Space" in Australis,
    Same as "Flexible Space".

Even if there is no need of "Flexible Space" in default layout of "nav-bar", "Bookmarks Toolbar" of Fx 29, "Flexible Space", and even if "Flexible Space" is usless in opened menu by "PanelUI-menu-button", I believe "Flexible Space" is mandatory element in "Customizing ToolBar".
I can Inderstand reason why "Separator" was removed from Australis.
But I can't understand reason why Australis developers removed "Flexible Space" from item of "Additional Tools and Features" of "Toolbar Customization" panel.

Because "Flexible Space" and "Space" is special and is not removable from "Additional Tools and Features" of "Toolbar Customization" panel, and generation of "Unieque ID" is mandatory when it's added to a ToolBar, "ToolBar Parts" part in "Toolbar Customization" panel may be better.

Comment 14

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

Who had removed part named "Flexible Space" from "Customization of ToolBar" from Firefox 29?
To developer(s) who removed part named "Flexible Space" from "Customization of ToolBar" from Firefox 29 :
  Do you actually understand feature of "Customization of ToolBar" of Mozilla?

Comment 15

[luuuzer32]

(In reply to :Gijs Kruitbosch from comment #6)
> No, because we need to have some kind of magical node that doesn't disappear
> when you drag it out (unlikely literally everything else in customize mode)

Why? Many Firefox users want to customize everything in UI, and I don't understand why you want to prevent them from doing this. Firefox was always a customizable browser.

Comment 16

[luuuzer32]

(In reply to WADA from comment #12)
> (1) "Separator" in Australis
>     Separator is embed in an ToolBar Button such as "Edit Controls" : X Cut
> | □ Copy　| ■ Paste.
>     So, "Restore of Separator" may produce confusion in ToolBar UI.

Separators in these buttons can be smaller. If you make them smaller (just like in Bookmarks button), there wouldn't be any confusion.

> (2) "Flexible Space" in Australis
>     As written in comment #2, "Flexible Space" can be added by enabling
> "Classic Theme Restorer".
>     And, the "added Flexible Space by Classic Theme Restorer" works well as
> expected,
>     even after disabling "Classic Theme Restorer",
>     because "Flexible Space" support itself is never killed by Australis.
>     This "Flexible Space created by Classic Theme Restorer" worked pretty
> well on toolbars
>     added by "PrefBar" extension and "The Addon Bar(restored)" extention.
>     "Flexible Space" is pretty usefull for "centering of a group of toolba
> button" even in Australis.
> (3) "Space" in Australis,
>     Same as "Flexible Space".

Are Firefox developers really trying to make customization harder? Just add Space and Flexible Space to Customize screen, and everything would work same (but user would bypass Classic Theme Restorer).

Comment 17

[Tim Nguyen :ntim]

FYI, there are plans to bring back these. Now if you have any other discussion to do, please don't post it here. This is not a forum. There's a mailing list you can use (firefox-dev).

Comment 18

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Tim Nguyen [:ntim] from comment #17)
> FYI, there are plans to bring back these.

By which bug?

> Now if you have any other discussion to do, please don't post it here. This is not a forum.

This bug is never "Discussion".
This bug is for problem of "stupid removel of mandatory parts named Flexisible space, Space, for Customization of Toolbar, which is obviously important feature of Mozilla Family", from Firefox 29 by developers of Firefox UI.
If "there are plans to bring back these" is actually tru, please point bug number at bugzilla.mozilla.org.

Comment 19

[Tim Nguyen :ntim]

(In reply to WADA from comment #18)
> (In reply to Tim Nguyen [:ntim] from comment #17)
> > FYI, there are plans to bring back these.
> 
> By which bug?

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=940012#c5
which implementation is being tracked here.

Comment 20

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

FYI.
"The Addon Bar (Restorered) 3.2" now added Flixible Space/Space/Separator support to Toolbar Customization Panel which was sadly removed by Firefox 29.
https://addons.mozilla.org/ja/firefox/addon/the-addon-bar/

Comment 21

[marnick.leau]

Is there a general idea of when this will be taken care of yet? I really miss my separators and installing an addon like Classic Theme Restorer or Addon Bar Restored is total overkill for me that just brings a ton of extra complications. I really don't see how these simple things can be such a drag for Mozilla. They're not difficult for users to understand and Mozilla doesn't need to provide any sort of automatic behavior or other complicated stuff.

Comment 22

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

FYI. Virtical Toolbar 1.0.7 also adds Flexible Space.

Comment 23

[marnick.leau]

(In reply to WADA from comment #22)
> FYI. Virtical Toolbar 1.0.7 also adds Flexible Space.

Again, you're suggesting to solve a problem by installing something that has a wildly different main purpose and only "fixes" the problem as an aside. That's not the way to solve problems unless you want nothing to ever work reliably.

Comment 24

[Ricardo]

I don't see the use of addons acceptable workaround, since this feature still exists in Firefox code; it's simply missing from Customization interface of Australis, as it seems.

Tim Nguyen said "there are plans to bring back these". That's enough for me.
(Ofc, it would have been better if they did take care of that prior to revamping interface/theme...)

Comment 25

[nemo]

So, could flexible spaces be brought back in a way that would be clearer to users?
Liiiike, animate the initial expansion, and leave the spacing coloured while in edit mode?

Anyway, I'd be totally fine if my more modest bug #940012  got added at least.
Or.. Any other way to fill the white space on the right hand side (right aligned elements option?)

Comment 26

[Craig]

I haven't tried to change my bar in years.  Now today trying to add a new button, it seems the seperators and spaces are missing, and if I put a button there it pops it to the left automatically.

Either bring back the spaces and seperators, or let me drop the icon where I want it in the first place.

The weirdest part is my old sperators and spaces are still there.  Wish I could copy them!

I see the last message is almost a year old, so seems this bug still exists?!@#?  I dont understand why it would take more than one version to fix this once noticed, I can't imagine mozilla would purposely remove them for no reason without an alternative way to do it.

Comment 27

[u538344]

(In reply to Craig from comment #26)
> I haven't tried to change my bar in years.  Now today trying to add a new
> button, it seems the seperators and spaces are missing, and if I put a
> button there it pops it to the left automatically.
> 
> Either bring back the spaces and seperators, or let me drop the icon where I
> want it in the first place.
> 
> The weirdest part is my old sperators and spaces are still there.  Wish I
> could copy them!
> 
> I see the last message is almost a year old, so seems this bug still
> exists?!@#?  I dont understand why it would take more than one version to
> fix this once noticed, I can't imagine mozilla would purposely remove them
> for no reason without an alternative way to do it.

Better get used to it, it's how mozilla rolls now: downhill.

Comment 28

[David Rankin]

Please re-enable the separator and flexible spaces in Firefox. I went to tweak my menu bar, to fix yet another unwanted icon that appears related to some ridiculous pocket and found that I no longer have the ability to insert separators and spaces in my toolbar. I really miss the days when I looked forward to version updates in Firefox. Now I just cringe when an update is announced knowing there will be more annoyances and unwanted duff and quasi-documented keys in about:config that must be removed or disabled. If your intention was not to remove the separators and flexible spaces -- just fix them. People were smart enough to make them work reliably since the beginning of Firefox 2, I have no doubt that can be done now.

Comment 29

[Manfred Braun]

Please re-enable the separator and flexible spaces in Firefox.
If this would be presented by a plugin, it would make Firefox
less secure.

Comment 30

[Michal Stanke (Mozilla.cz) [:mstanke][:MikkCZ]]

I have seen flexible spaces on the latest Photon mockups used to center the address bar. So are they actually coming back, or is it not decided yet?

Comment 31

[Stephen Horlander [:shorlander]]

Bug 1366813 will add flexible space. No plans currently to re-add fixed space or separators.

Comment 32

[Kuba Niewiarowski]

Duplicate of bug 1366813?

Comment 33

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Kuba Niewiarowski from comment #32)
> Duplicate of bug 1366813?

No, we're only adding flexible space right now, not separators or fixed-size spacers.

Comment 36

[bobgranet]

I'm curious -- what's the rationale for refusing to add back simple UI/layout components that are helpful & oft-requested?

It's obviously not that you don't want users to have a say in how they layout their FF toolbars, as you already have flexible-spaces.

Comment 37

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to bobgranet from comment #36)
> I'm curious -- what's the rationale for refusing to add back simple
> UI/layout components that are helpful & oft-requested?
> 
> It's obviously not that you don't want users to have a say in how they
> layout their FF toolbars, as you already have flexible-spaces.

It's not in scope for 57. The simple reason is, there's too much else that is already in-scope that still needs finishing, and there is *very* little time left. I'm also not sure what value fixed spaces would add now that there are flexible spaces, and how they would be distinguishable for users, so there's missing UX work in addition to lacking testing etc. (see also the bugs we're already having with the addition of flexible spacers.)

Comment 38

[bobgranet]

I don't get it.

As already stated above, and similarly elsewhere,

> The thing people/devs don't seem to understand is that these spacers *are*
> already there, they don't need to be added back as a whole new feature. We
> merely need only 3 icons in customization palette.

> These elements are really unintuitive and hard to 'get' for average users

No, my several 100s of users have no problems putting things where they want them to be, and having them stay put.

And being able to write up a set of docs for users where we can point at an icon in a screenshot and say "Use this icon ..." etc.

What's "unintuitive" is ONLY having flexible spaces that cause auto-sizing/autopositiong that users do NOT want.

Seems, again from above, that's not earthshattering news,

> Now I just cringe when an update is announced knowing there will be more annoyances and unwanted duff and
> quasi-documented keys in about:config that must be removed or disabled. If your intention was not to remove the separators 
> and flexible spaces -- just fix them. People were smart enough to make them work reliably since the beginning of
> Firefox 2, I have no doubt that can be done now.

for others, either.

Comment 39

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to bobgranet from comment #38)
> I don't get it.
> 
> As already stated above, and similarly elsewhere,
> 
> > The thing people/devs don't seem to understand is that these spacers *are*
> > already there, they don't need to be added back as a whole new feature. We
> > merely need only 3 icons in customization palette.
> 
> > These elements are really unintuitive and hard to 'get' for average users
> 
> No, my several 100s of users have no problems putting things where they want
> them to be, and having them stay put.
> 
> And being able to write up a set of docs for users where we can point at an
> icon in a screenshot and say "Use this icon ..." etc.

People shouldn't need to have to read a separate document to be able to use the Firefox UI.

It's also really not just a question of "just 3 icons" - the method of storing toolbar placements has changed since prior to Australis, and we now have panel UI in addition to toolbar UI (panels where the spacer elements make no sense). So additional logic is needed, as well as design to distinguish the fixed/flexible spacers (where I'm sure some *other* users would complain if we removed flexible spacers and added only fixed ones). And yes, that could all be done, but it isn't today and there is no time for the core team to do it before 57 is released.

Comment 40

[bobgranet]

> People shouldn't need to have to read a separate document to be able to use the Firefox UI.

That's cute idealism.  Some of us live in the real world, with real users.

> if we removed flexible spacers and added only fixed ones

Who's suggested that?

> and there is no time for the core team to do it before 57 is released

Well, there's the real problem, isn't it.

Interesting that the response to USERS for so many things, e.g. for getting ready for WebExtensions, is "You've had years to get ready" ...

Comment 41

[Anand]

Just want to say that this is a common enough issue for power users. Being able to add a *simple* separator between tool icons makes a BIG difference in the day to day use of the application.

I had several separators in my toolbar all the way up till today. I updated Firefox today on Mac OSX 11 to FF57 and now, when I needed to update the location of icons due to the addition/subtraction of webextension/legacy addons, I "lost" some of the separators by mistake (dragged them off and released mouse by mistake). I'm left with one separator now... LOL!

I did a web search for whether I could add more separators in and found this:
https://superuser.com/questions/880303/add-toolbar-separator-to-firefox/1248093

I know that for the developers, this is a trivial matter but, the credo of Firefox was always to put the power of customisation into the hands of the Users. This is not a trivial matter for us because it is a regression in capability.

Could you please, please, pretty please bump up the check on this request to a high enough level that it can get addressed for the next major release? It's been a long time since I've been able to simply pick up a Separator from the Customize screen.

PS: As bobgranet mentioned, the "flexible spacers" aren't very user friendly. They are unseemly and add TOO much space between segments. All *I* want to be able to do is create a logical division between groups of icons so that, while working, I can click on what I need faster... That's what this boils down to, Users being able to work faster and make less mistakes by reducing the number of mistaken clicks on the wrong icon because my mouse's DPI is too high...

Thank you Firefox team!

Comment 42

[Scott Jones]

I concur with Anand's polite and diplomatic (previous) comment, with one addition:

Flexible spacers are not a desirable alternative to me, either, but for a different reason.  I want a positive/something/visible delimiter with which to organize groups of toolbar buttons. Please.  :)  

Let's not digress as to whether an empty space is "something."  For the purpose of this bug, a blank space (flexible or not) is a negative/nothing/invisible.

I'm familiar with the problems of prioritization and resources.  But my savvy for greasing screws to get small fixes like this done is way dated.  The best I could offer anyone who might be up to the task -- the task of bringing toolbar button separators back to the Firefox world -- would be some legacy Novell or Altiris swag.  And I'm guessing that ain't exactly stylish on The Bay in 2018.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And I must also confess that, unlike Anand, I'm a cranky old ****.  If you wanna read the undiplomatic version of this comment (only go hither if your sense of humor is intact!), click here:  https://www.facebook.com/hsj2112/posts/10211734063174932


Just, please...  I'm beggin' ya, give us back out separators!  :_(

Comment 43

[Jeffery Small]

One more voice in support of bring back the space and separator.  I cannot understand the resistance to supporting a critical UI feature like this.

Comment 44

[Tim Nguyen :ntim]

Attachment: Bug 985308 - Add space and separators to customize mode.

Review commit: https://reviewboard.mozilla.org/r/239778/diff/#index_header
See other reviews: https://reviewboard.mozilla.org/r/239778/

Comment 45

[Tim Nguyen :ntim]

Comment on attachment 8971047 [details]
Bug 985308 - Add space and separators to customize mode.

Review request updated; see interdiff: https://reviewboard.mozilla.org/r/239778/diff/1-2/

Comment 46

[:Gijs (he/him)]

Comment on attachment 8971047 [details]
Bug 985308 - Add space and separators to customize mode.

https://reviewboard.mozilla.org/r/239778/#review245530

Please get UI/UX review first. Besides the obvious "do we really want to do this", I'm particularly concerned that, from just looking at the code, I doubt the separators are reasonably draggable (ie they are probably too narrow in customize mode to reliably hit with the mouse) and that the flexible/fixed spaces aren't reasonably distinguishable once they're in the toolbar. Maybe they need a background image in customize mode or something.

Comment 47

[Tim Nguyen :ntim]

(In reply to :Gijs (he/him) from comment #46)
> I'm particularly concerned that, from just looking at the code, I
> doubt the separators are reasonably draggable (ie they are probably too
> narrow in customize mode to reliably hit with the mouse) and that the
> flexible/fixed spaces aren't reasonably distinguishable once they're in the
> toolbar. Maybe they need a background image in customize mode or something.

In the customization mode palette, the separator draggable area is the whole palette item (77x72), which is largely enough. As for the toolbar, the separators are (9x40) which is reasonably large for the mouse at least IMO.

As for the flexible vs fixed spaces, they're distinguishable from their size in the customize mode, but I agree it could be an issue on the toolbar when the flexible spaces get smaller.

Comment 49

[:Gijs (he/him)]

I think realistically this isn't happening; we don't have the design resources to get this to happen in a user-intuitive way, and power users who really really need these can add them already by just modifying the relevant prefs.