Closed Bug 348096 Opened 13 years ago Closed 12 years ago

ru Search Feature Tracking for Firefox 2

Categories

(Mozilla Localizations :: ru / Russian, defect, critical)

defect
Not set
critical

Tracking

(Not tracked)

RESOLVED FIXED
mozilla1.8.1

People

(Reporter: chofmann, Assigned: unghost)

References

Details

(Keywords: fixed1.8.1, Whiteboard: [FIXED for FX2])

Attachments

(5 files, 1 obsolete file)

tracking bug to make sure we get things on the list below working correctly for
each locale:

Full Default Search partner list/order.
primary/secondary search selection behavior
Search codes.
Search Suggests enable/disable for locales where available or no
Blocks: fx20-ru
Component: Other → ru-RU / Russian
QA Contact: nobody



http://people.mozilla.com/~axel/nightly-1.8/search-engines.html shows these engines in the ru build.

Google	
Yandex	
Price.ru	
RU Filesearch	
Wikipedia (RU)	
Yandex.Lingvo

doesn't have yahoo. but http://ru.search.yahoo.com/ exists

should yahoo be listed second?
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/L10n_Requirements#Search_Plugins

http://lxr.mozilla.org/l10n-mozilla1.8/source/ru/browser/chrome/browser-region/region.properties
shows Yandex there now
  1 browser.search.defaultenginename = Google
  2 browser.search.order.1 = Google
  3 browser.search.order.2 = Yandex

mic, or anyone, do you know if yahoo should be missing and/or if yandex should be second?
it's my understanding that yahoo should be listed second
(In reply to comment #1)
> 
> 
> 
> http://people.mozilla.com/~axel/nightly-1.8/search-engines.html shows these
> engines in the ru build.
> 
> Google  
> Yandex  
> Price.ru        
> RU Filesearch   
> Wikipedia (RU)  
> Yandex.Lingvo
> 
> doesn't have yahoo. but http://ru.search.yahoo.com/ exists
> 
> should yahoo be listed second?
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/L10n_Requirements#Search_Plugins
> 
> http://lxr.mozilla.org/l10n-mozilla1.8/source/ru/browser/chrome/browser-region/region.properties
> shows Yandex there now
>   1 browser.search.defaultenginename = Google
>   2 browser.search.order.1 = Google
>   3 browser.search.order.2 = Yandex
> 
Chris, Yahoo search plugin was removed from Russian build, because Yahoo is not popular in Russia and it's market share close to zero. This change was approved by Rafael Ebron ( see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=265882#c6 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=265882#c9 ). Yandex is one of most popular search engines in Russia.
I think it's bad idea to remove Yandex and include Yahoo, and I'm strongly opposing it as owner of Firefox russian localization. 
sounds good to me.  thanks for providing the update, and links to old approval bugs.
Hey guys,
for clarification
Yandex should be added for sure, given local relevance/significance
Yahoo should stay as an option in list as it is a user experience consistency (so it should not be removed all together)
hope that helps
mic
Fixing summary (ru-RU is obsolete) and adding Pike to CC.
Summary: ru-RU Search Feature Tracking for Firefox 2 → ru Search Feature Tracking for Firefox 2
Attachment #236091 - Flags: review?(l10n)
Comment on attachment 236091 [details] [diff] [review]
Add Yahoo to list of search plugins

That looks about right, but please attach a follow-up patch to set the position of yahoo-ru.xml to 2 instead of yandex.
At least that's how I read mic's comments.
Attachment #236091 - Flags: review?(l10n) → review+
Comment on attachment 236091 [details] [diff] [review]
Add Yahoo to list of search plugins

Checked in.
(In reply to comment #9)
> (From update of attachment 236091 [details] [diff] [review] [edit])
> That looks about right, but please attach a follow-up patch to set the position
> of yahoo-ru.xml to 2 instead of yandex.
> At least that's how I read mic's comments.
> 
I'm not sure that it was Mic's point.

Mic, can you please clarify? Let me describe situation:
1) Yandex have about 40-50 percents of Russian search engines' market share (see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=265882#c1 for some stats)
2) Yahoo market share in Russia is very insignificant (close to zero). I haven't met any person in Russia using Yahoo as search engine. 
3) As I understood comment #6, you want Yahoo in russian build only for consistency with other l10n and en-US builds (though may be I'm mistaken)
4) Given 1) and 2) I strongly believe that Yahoo should not be placed instead Yandex on second position in search engines list. Placing Yahoo on second position makes little use for Russian users of Firefox and places Yandex (one of most popular search engines in Russia) in bottom of list.
I'm maintain Firefox at ALT Linux distribution. This is russian linux distribution. Yahoo don't well-known in Russia. Yandex is much more famous in Russia. The second on popularity is Rambler.
hey
alexander - you are right.
yandex as second is fine.
yahoo for consistency is also fine (I believe they now have an RU version of their search engine)
hope that helps
mic
Assignee: nobody → unghost
Severity: normal → critical
OS: Windows XP → All
QA Contact: nobody → unghost
Hardware: PC → All
We'd like to replace Price.ru search engine with Market.Yandex.ru search engine. Reasons are:
1) Market.Yandex.ru has more wide variety of goods than Price.ru.
2) Search on Price.ru is kinda flaw. You'll get only links to some proposals without description, price or photo of goods, and need to click to get description and price. On Market.Yandex.ru you will get detail specification of goods with photos and price right from search box. Also on Market.Yandex.ru you can read opinions of other people regarding this good.
3) There are much more banners on Price.ru, than on Market.Yandex.ru

If I need to get agreement from Market.Yandex.ru, let me know. I'll try to contact them.
Attachment #237484 - Flags: review?(l10n)
Asking for blockin Firefox 2
Flags: blocking-firefox2?
Mic, http://company.yandex.ru/english/contacts.xml has a marketing contact alias listed.

Looking at this bug and at bug 351928, yandex is growing to be a really prominent service provider in our UI. Mic, can you cross check that?

Given the additional exposure, I think an explicit permission would be good for including additional yandex services in search and rss readers.
Whiteboard: [needs-mic] the yandex build?
hi
we have written permission from Yandex to include their search, rss feed and reader in FF
we are working with Yandex on a seperate initiative for a "yandex buil" - that is outside of this effort
re bug 351928 i am awaiting permission from kanban

thanks
mic
Whiteboard: [needs-mic] the yandex build?
Attachment #237484 - Flags: review?(l10n) → review+
Comment on attachment 237484 [details] [diff] [review]
Replace Price.ru with Market.Yandex.ru

Fixed on branch.
Comment on attachment 236091 [details] [diff] [review]
Add Yahoo to list of search plugins

As we don't have the russian Yahoo engine ordered, we should remove the 

 <Param name="fr" value="moz2"/>

line from the plugin.
If we have a requirement to include Yandex in this region, it should be reflected in the l10n requirements page at:

http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/L10n_Requirements

Also, will we be getting into trouble if we have to include orderings for more than 2 entries?
Flags: blocking-firefox2? → blocking-firefox2+
Attachment #237778 - Flags: review?(l10n) → review+
Comment on attachment 237778 [details] [diff] [review]
Remove <Param name="fr" value="moz2"/> from Russian Yahoo search engine

Fixed on branch
hey all
re: rob's comment #20
yandex is not a "requirement" as of yet. we are in talks with yandex but this is still early stage and so i wouldn't characterize this as a requirement for FF2 versus the normal localization requests
make sense?
mic
can we change the severity level on this bug now?
mic
looking at 

I'd say we can just mark this fixed

Here are testing results for order and codes sent

google
http://www.google.com/search?q=test&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:ru:unofficial&client=firefox-a
should get "offical" when the build flags get turned on.

ru filesearch
http://www.filesearch.ru/cgi-bin/s?q=test&t=f&n=20

wikipedia.ru
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5:Search?search=test&fulltext=fulltext&sourceid=mozilla-search

yahoo
http://ru.search.yahoo.com/search?p=test&ei=UTF-8

yandex
http://www.yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=test

yandex lingvo
http://lingvo.yandex.ru/en?search_type=lingvo&st_translate=1&text=test&sourceid=mozilla-search

yandex market
http://market.yandex.ru/search.xml?text=test&sourceid=mozilla-search


reopen if this doesn't look correct, or changes need to be made.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 13 years ago
Keywords: fixed1.8
Resolution: --- → FIXED
looking at Идентификатор сборки:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ru; rv:1.8.1b2) Gecko/2006091104 BonEcho/2.0b2

I'd say we can just mark this fixed

Here are testing results for order and codes sent

google
http://www.google.com/search?q=test&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:ru:unofficial&client=firefox-a
should get "offical" when the build flags get turned on.

ru filesearch
http://www.filesearch.ru/cgi-bin/s?q=test&t=f&n=20

wikipedia.ru
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5:Search?search=test&fulltext=fulltext&sourceid=mozilla-search

yahoo
http://ru.search.yahoo.com/search?p=test&ei=UTF-8

yandex
http://www.yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=test

yandex lingvo
http://lingvo.yandex.ru/en?search_type=lingvo&st_translate=1&text=test&sourceid=mozilla-search

yandex market
http://market.yandex.ru/search.xml?text=test&sourceid=mozilla-search


reopen if this doesn't look correct, or changes need to be made.
Did we get a point of contact and permissions for RU Filesearch to Mic?
Rationale for this patch:
As I noticed in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=348096#c11,
Yandex is most popular search engine in Russia, it has 45% of search
engines' market in Russia, according to Russian Internet audience
measurement and analysis system http://gs.spylog.ru/ (see
http://gs.spylog.ru/r/?reportId=7&categoryId=1). Google's share is half
as great.
With regard to this, we (Russian Mozilla Firefox localization team)
consider that Yandex should be default search engine in Russian Firefox build,
and Yandex should be on first position and Google on second, according to
current sutuation on search engines' market in Russia.
Attachment #237965 - Flags: review?(l10n)
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: FIXED → ---
Comment on attachment 237965 [details] [diff] [review]
Reorder Google and Yandex

Mic, this is a request to make Google not the default search engine and first in the menu. I don't see us doing that for Firefox 2, but it's your call.
Attachment #237965 - Flags: review?(l10n) → review?(mic)
Comment on attachment 237965 [details] [diff] [review]
Reorder Google and Yandex

Hi Alexander,  we have an agreement in place with Google to list them as the first and default search engine.  we would need more time and work to replace with yandex.  I'm not sure there is time to complete this in time for firefox 2.
Attachment #237965 - Flags: review?(mic) → review-
hey all,
for now we should leave Google in position 1 and Yandex in position 2
Alexander if you have a contact for Filesearch RU you can send me at some point in the next few weeks that would be great.
otherwise from my perspective we can close this bug
thanks
mic
(In reply to comment #31)
> hey all,
> for now we should leave Google in position 1 and Yandex in position 2
> Alexander if you have a contact for Filesearch RU you can send me at some point
> in the next few weeks that would be great.
> otherwise from my perspective we can close this bug
> thanks
> mic
> 
Mic, I believe that contact for http://www.filesearch.ru/ is on bottom of their first page - info@filesearch.ru
Do you want that I'll contact them or you'll take it? As I understand you need their approval for including filesearch.ru search engine. 
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Closed: 13 years ago13 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Whiteboard: follow up with contact for filesearch.ru
because we had filesearch in 1.5 we assume they know and are ok to proceed as is for FF2 and not allow this bug to be a blocking bug for that reason however, we still need a note from them acknowledging that we point to their tool. can you help me get that? unless you think they'll be ok with an english email
thanks
mic
(In reply to comment #33)
> because we had filesearch in 1.5 we assume they know and are ok to proceed as
> is for FF2 and not allow this bug to be a blocking bug for that reason however,
> we still need a note from them acknowledging that we point to their tool. can
> you help me get that? unless you think they'll be ok with an english email
> thanks
> mic
> 
Sure, I'll help. I'll try to get in touch with them ASAP.
(In reply to comment #26)
> I'd say we can just mark this fixed
> 
> Here are testing results for order and codes sent
...

> reopen if this doesn't look correct, or changes need to be made.

Does this mean that it doesn't include Rambler.ru? 

Rambler is the second most popular search engine in Russia and is one of the pioneering Russian search engines that is still around, and it definitely needs to be included (see Comment #12). 

The semantics of the Russian language is very different to that of English, and only Yandex and Rambler can properly account for morphology (declensional endings, tense, gender etc), which Russian language is famous for. 

Compare the highlighted words in the following results, and see how search engines account for declensional endings in Russian on "отведать вкусного пирожного" query: 

http://www.yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=%EE%F2%E2%E5%E4%E0%F2%FC+%E2%EA%F3%F1%ED%EE%E3%EE+%EF%E8%F0%EE%E6%ED%EE%E3%EE&stype=www
http://www.rambler.ru/srch?set=www&words=%EE%F2%E2%E5%E4%E0%F2%FC+%E2%EA%F3%F1%ED%EE%E3%EE+%EF%E8%F0%EE%E6%ED%EE%E3%EE&btnG=%CD%E0%E9%F2%E8%21
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C+%D0%B2%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE+%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE&btnG=Search
http://ru.search.yahoo.com/search?p=%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C+%D0%B2%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE+%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE&sm=%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&ei=UTF-8&vc=

Neither google nor yahoo can provide a level of service and satisfaction with Russian-language results as Yandex and Rambler can. Search is not about the language of the interface, it's about the relevance of the results. It would be a mistake to include Google and leave out Yandex, or include Yahoo and leave out Rambler. 

One has to appreciate that Yandex (est. 1997) and Rambler (est. 1996) in Russian-language search are equivalent to Google and Yahoo in English-language search. They are not some companies that didn't do any original research -- they did and still do, -- they are huge and well-respected in Russia and the whole former Soviet Union. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yandex and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambler_%28portal%29 for some more information.

(I'm really surprised that Yandex is not the default search engine, because it is just so much more appropriate for Russian-language search, although agreement adherence with google is understandable.)

****

Now, let's take a look at raw search engine popularity in 2005-09-13/2006-09-13 timeframe according to gs.spylog.ru (see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=265882#c1 for some retrospective view): 

 * yandex ...... 46.7%
 * rambler ..... 19.9%
 * google ...... 19.2%
 * yandex.news .  5.7%
 * mail.ru .....  4.8%
 * aport.ru ....  1.1%
 * yahoo ........ 0.8%

http://gs.spylog.ru/r/?dayFrom=13&monthFrom=9&yearFrom=2005&dayFor=13&monthFor=9&yearFor=2006&visitors=on&x=15&y=31&order=visitors&desc=1&inner=0&reportId=7&categoryId=1&representationType=table

(This popularity is based on a counter called "SpyLOG", which provides free statistical analysis for site-owners. This SpyLOG counter is used by a very significant amount of Russian-speaking web-site owners, for example, you can even see this counter on filesearch.ru (along with a ramber.ru counter, BTW), and it's even more popular amongst smaller and medium-sized web-sites, so this statistics is quite representable of the search engine market that provides traffic for Russian web-pages.)

(More to the statistics, if you include Yahoo, consider including mail.ru as well -- consistency between locales should not come at the price of usability. If you ask me, I'd say that only Yandex, Rambler and Google should be included as the multipurpose search engines, leaving mail.ru, aport and yahoo behind due to the UI usability-space-constraints.)

As I am unaware of any good reason why Rambler was removed in the first place (unfortunately, LXR's "CVS log" still doesn't work for locales, if there a bug for that?), I'm reopening this bug as instructed by chofmann above. 

Thanks for reading, ;)
Constantine.
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: FIXED → ---
is there a patch to add rambler back in for 2.0.  if it was there in 1.5 it should be there for 2.0.
I'd like to clarify that this statistics is based upon [search-engine] -> [web-page with a counter] transitions, and _does not exclude_ those search-engine transitions that were performed by non-Russian speakers from outside of Russia quite likely using non-Russian-language queries (i.e. English words resulting in transitions to English pages created by Russian webmasters; Bulgarian words that are spelled like Russian resulting in a transition to a Russian page with the counter etc), so it is biased towards google and yahoo due to their presence in other regions. 

Some other popular statistical web-site allows one to filter the data based on the geographical location (i.e. IP-address, I believe), and if you filter by Russia, then the statistics shows the true popularity of search engines in Russia (highly dominant by Yandex and Rambler), and I assume, that the target market for the Russian Firefox is indeed Russian speakers in Russia, so this statistics is of particular interest.

Full monthly statistics, includes untargeted group of non-Russian-speakers:
http://www.liveinternet.ru/stat/ru/searches.html?period=month 
 * yandex .... 49%
 * rambler ... 18%
 * google .... 17%
 * mail.ru ...  5%
 ...
 ...
 * yahoo .....  0.7%

Russia-only monthly statistics, includes only our target group:
http://www.liveinternet.ru/stat/ru/searches.html?slice=ru;period=month
 * yandex .... 60%
 * rambler ... 21%
 * google ....  7%
 * mail.ru ...  6%
 ...
 ...
 * yahoo .....  0.2%

Thanks,
Constantine. 
Rambler was not in 1.5, and independent on how popular it would be, it missed the deadline.

Given that the Russian build already has 7 plugins, I don't see it coming without removing something else, which is unlikely to happen before 3.0.

Constantine, we do value your input, but you're not the person to reopen product definition bugs. If you want to suggest we do, that's fine, but bugs like this should only be reopened by Mozilla or the localization owner, maybe a peer. Otherwise we'll never gonna ship anything.

FIXED for good for 2.0.
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Closed: 13 years ago13 years ago
Keywords: fixed1.8fixed1.8.1
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Updated the l10n docs to reflect that Yandex is second...
re comment #14 replacing price.ru with market.yandex.ru

Axel: i thought during lockdown no check-ins were allowed whithout approval? what's the proper process for making a change here. 
Also note: i realize i may be contradicting what you wrote in comment #38 but I believe for user experience this needs to be addressed.

Alexander: i apologize for not communicating clearly (in my comment #17 I meant we have permission for search.yandex.ru). I don't think it's a good idea to have 3 yandex search plug-ins in our regular build. I agree with your comments about price.ru however might there be another better option rather than adding another yandex search plug in? In the US we provide users with two e-commerce options amazon and ebay.

Thanks
Mic


Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Keywords: fixed1.8.1
Resolution: FIXED → ---
(In reply to comment #40)
> re comment #14 replacing price.ru with market.yandex.ru
> Alexander: i apologize for not communicating clearly (in my comment #17 I meant
> we have permission for search.yandex.ru).
I can try to contact Yandex and get their permission for including Yandex.Market in Russian Firefox build. Should I?
 
> I don't think it's a good idea to 
> have 3 yandex search plug-ins in our regular build. I agree with your comments
> about price.ru however might there be another better option rather than adding
> another yandex search plug in? In the US we provide users with two e-commerce
> options amazon and ebay.
> 
> Thanks
> Mic
Probably, it's possible to find alternative, but that will take a lot of time and efforts. I don't think that I can find other popular e-commerce site and get their permission in few days before RC2 freeze. It's probably 3.0 stuff.
Also please take in account that in Russia there are few popular e-commerce sites and even less mozilla search plugins for them. It will be hard.

Hi
Please remove market.yandex.ru and replace it with the original price.ru plug-in.
In general it's easier to  add things later than take things out. So in times of uncertainty, (like now with "the best ecommerce alternative site in Russia"), we should go with status quo unless there's pretty overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In this case I do not think the evidence (comment #14) is overwhelming for replacing price.ru with an option of yandex (while I appreciate it's a different Yandex service, it's stil Yandex therefore limiting user choice overall). 
Alexander - we are trying to get better understanding of local markets so for next releases I'd really like to work more directly with you to understand the market and make good user experience-based choices.
Conclusion: BD says re-enstate Price.RU search plug in and remove market.yandex.ru
thanks
Mic
(In reply to comment #42)
Mic, as you have said, in comment #40 - "In the US we provide users with two e-commerce
options amazon and ebay." So, what about to provide user choice, add price.ru, and let Yandex.Market stay? So in RU we'll provide users with two e-commerce options Price.ru and Yandex.Market - it will be consistent with en-US search engines set.
I understand, that in this case there will be 8 search engines, it's kinda a lot, so I can  remove some lesser valuable search engine. That's filesearch.ru for sure - it's in little demand.
I think comparison not correctly. The Russian Internet has the big differences from other countries (for example Yahoo is most popular in the world, but in Russia it's zero, I think inclusion Yahoo in Russian Firefox is mistake).
Russian Internet is very young and has a little e-commerce resources. Yandex the best among them. 
Our team a long time discussed this question. We think that good idea to give the Russian users the BEST services. Today it is a Yandex. But Russian Internet dynamically develops and on this I agree with Alexander that is better to return to this question to Firefox 3. 
Take browsers stat in Russia. http://gs.spylog.ru/r/?reportId=10&categoryId=1 Firefox not so big. We use any thing which will help to make Firefox more popular in Russia.
May be 3 Yandex searches it's much. But this best decision at present.
If it sounds unpersuasively, I agree that it is necessary to remove FileSearch (but it's better to remove Yahoo)
This patch implements proposal made in comment #42. It restores Price.ru and removes Filesearch.ru, thus adding competition for Yandex.Market and removing limits for user's choice.
Regarding situation about 3 Yandex search plugins - Yandex is strong company, it have high-quality services. I just want that users can get the best service, that's all.
Attachment #240469 - Flags: approval1.8.1?
> This patch implements proposal made in comment #42.
s/comment #42/comment #43

Comment on attachment 240469 [details] [diff] [review]
Restore Price.ru and remove Filesearch.ru

This patch doesn't do what Mic asked in comment 42, and isn't reviewed by any l10n driver.

Please only request approval once you have a reviewed patch.
Attachment #240469 - Flags: approval1.8.1? → review?(l10n)
Comment on attachment 240469 [details] [diff] [review]
Restore Price.ru and remove Filesearch.ru

This is really a needs-mic.
Attachment #240469 - Flags: review?(l10n) → review?(mic)
Whiteboard: follow up with contact for filesearch.ru → [needs-mic] yandex; follow up with contact for filesearch.ru
Target Milestone: --- → mozilla1.8.1
Hey Alexander and Constantine,

the current build is not acceptable.

revert to 1.5 version for plug-ins plus yahoo.ru including the ordering of the plug-in. this means specifically:
google
yandex
filesearch.ru
lingvo.yandex.ru
price.ru
wikipedia
yahoo.ru

thanks
mic
Whiteboard: [needs-mic] yandex; follow up with contact for filesearch.ru → follow up with contact for filesearch.ru
Target Milestone: mozilla1.8.1 → ---
(In reply to comment #49)
> Hey Alexander and Constantine,
> 
> the current build is not acceptable.

I know that, but see comment #38. :)

> revert to 1.5 version for plug-ins plus yahoo.ru including the ordering of the
> plug-in. this means specifically:
> google
> yandex
> filesearch.ru
> lingvo.yandex.ru
> price.ru
> wikipedia
> yahoo.ru

Was there any research being done that filesearch.ru and price.ru are being used by any considerable number of users, let alone Firefox users? Based on what conclusion were they included in the first place? I can vouch that out of this list price.ru, filesearch.ru and most likely yahoo.ru should not be included, but ramber.ru and may be search.mail.ru must be additionally added.

Regarding price.ru: please, read Comment #14 for reasons to exclude price.ru. I think it'll be better to provide {less search engines} than {more but with incomplete features}.

Regarding filesearch.ru: does it even work for anyone? There were several ftp-server search engines in Russia, but I personally was rarely able to download any files that they find. 

Regarding yahoo/rambler/mail.ru: see comment #37.

Look, you cannot expect that in each market people have the same interests. In Russia, people don't use centralised electronic commerce web-sites as much, but many people prefer alternative general search engines -- Yandex, Rambler, Google and Mail.ru. This is a good reason not to include commerce search-engines, but possibly include adequate number of alternative general search engines. Why are all locales being lined up against en-US in regard to search engine list composition? This is not good for anyone: mozilla.org presence is less significant in the Russian market as a result of these dealings, mozilla.org users get poorer experience with Firefox ru-RU in regards to the search engine selection or lack thereof, and last but not least, localisers live in constant fear that popular search engine (Yandex) is going to be replaced by a western alternative (Yahoo) that no-one is going to use in the Russian market.
i've sent mail directly to alexander & alexy about this, but we're talking directly with Yandex about what we should be doing together -- and given our experience with more than 1 or 2 plugins from a single company over the past year, where users weren't happy, i want very much to limit Yandex to 2 entries here -- Yandex & Yandex.Lingvo.

fair points on rambler and mail.ru -- but we need to do this in the future, not in 2.0, as it's quite late now to really vet them out. i would like to figure this out for the next release of firefox, though.

with price.ru, i understand the points here -- but, again, before we pull them, i'd like to do a bit of research together -- so am willing to reopen with the next release. 

but here's the thing: with the new search engine interface in Firefox 2, it's easier than ever to add search engines and reorder them, so users can decide, which is really what we want anyway. we know historically that searches in the bottom few of the list don't get very many searches, so i don't think is such an important argument, given how easy it is to add new engines now. 

but i *do* commit to working with the folks on this bug and in the broader Russian community to working well in advance of Firefox 3 to build the best set for the future. 

can we live with the set that we're proposing now?

> revert to 1.5 version for plug-ins plus yahoo.ru including the ordering of the
> plug-in. this means specifically:
> google
> yandex
> filesearch.ru
> lingvo.yandex.ru
> price.ru
> wikipedia
> yahoo.ru
There is not enough market data for us to make a good determination here.  Therefore, we should:

1) go with a minimum set of search plugins for the Russian market
2) ensure that all of the alternatives are available on addons.mozilla.org through the "Manage Search Engines..."
3) monitor adoption of these while undertaking directed market research for the next product cycle.

That is, the pre-loaded search plugins will be: google.ru, yandex, yahoo.ru and wikipedia.  google will be the default.
Patch for restoring Price.ru and removing Yandex.Market.
That's all that we need to revert to 1.5 set of search plug-ins.
Attachment #240563 - Flags: review?(mic)
> Patch for restoring Price.ru and removing Yandex.Market.
> That's all that we need to revert to 1.5 set of search plug-ins.
1.5 set of search plug-ins + Yahoo, of course.
i would support either status quo or what chris proposes in comment #52.
(In reply to comment #55)
> i would support either status quo or what chris proposes in comment #52.
> 
By status quo you mean "current search plugins set" or "1.5 search plugins set"?

P.S. My choose between "1.5 search plugins set" and chris' proposal is "1.5 search plugins set" 
Comment on attachment 240469 [details] [diff] [review]
Restore Price.ru and remove Filesearch.ru

Clearing old request
Attachment #240469 - Flags: review?(mic)
Comment on attachment 240563 [details] [diff] [review]
Restore Price.ru and remove Yandex.Market

[ru] After a bit of chat, we picked reverting to 1.5 with adding yahoo, which is what this patch does.
Attachment #240563 - Flags: review?(mic)
Attachment #240563 - Flags: review+
Attachment #240563 - Flags: approval1.8.1+
Comment on attachment 240469 [details] [diff] [review]
Restore Price.ru and remove Filesearch.ru

We didn't pick this one.
Attachment #240469 - Attachment is obsolete: true
Attachment #240469 - Flags: review-
Target Milestone: --- → mozilla1.8.1
I checked in something like attachement 240563 before the freeze(the patch itself didn't apply for some reason), as Alexander had to head off to work.

I'm resolving this fixed1.8.1 only, to keep the discussion open. I'm torn, I'd love to close this bug and move the upcoming discussion to a follow up bug, but that will just point back to this one and end up confusing.

Thanks to everyone for their input and patience.
Keywords: fixed1.8.1
Whiteboard: follow up with contact for filesearch.ru → [FIXED for FX2] follow up with contact for filesearch.ru
Target Milestone: mozilla1.8.1 → ---
Target Milestone: --- → mozilla1.8.1
Whiteboard: [FIXED for FX2] follow up with contact for filesearch.ru → [FIXED for FX2]
I've opened Bug 408880 for changes in search engines for Firefox 3. I guess this bug should be closed.
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Closed: 13 years ago12 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
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