Closed Bug 399477 Opened 17 years ago Closed 17 years ago

determine better wording for "Places" folder and pre-defined queries

Categories

(Firefox :: Bookmarks & History, defect, P3)

Product:
Firefox
Component:
Bookmarks & History
Type:
defect

Tracking

()

Status:
VERIFIED FIXED
Milestone:
Firefox 3 beta2

People

(Reporter: moco, Assigned: moco)

References

Details

Attachments

(2 files, 2 obsolete files)

screen shot, with separator
135.42 KB, image/jpeg
Details
updated patch
11.93 KB, patch
dietrich
: review+
Details | Diff | Splinter Review 
determine better wording for "Places" folder and pre-defined queries

from places.properties, we have:

+placesFolderTitle=Places
+recentlyCreatedBookmarksTitle=Recently Starred Pages
+recentlyVisitedBookmarksTitle=Recently Visited Starred Pages
+mostVisitedBookmarksTitle=Most Visited Starred Pages
+recentlyUsedTagsTitle=Recently Used Tags
+mostUsedTagsTitle=Most Used Tags
+mostVisitedSitesTitle=Most Visited Pages
Flags: blocking-firefox3?
note, while these strings are in places.properties changing them won't change already created "Places" folder (or items), as we use these strings when creating the folder and bookmark items.
Take 1 ..: the idea is to use the more familiar name of "Bookmark"

+placesFolderTitle=Bookmarks
+recentlyCreatedBookmarksTitle=Recently Added
+recentlyVisitedBookmarksTitle=Recently Visited
+mostVisitedBookmarksTitle=Most Visited
+recentlyUsedTagsTitle=Recent Tags
+mostUsedTagsTitle=Favourite Tags
+mostVisitedSitesTitle=Suggested

Take 2 ..: the idea is to make it clear that these are dynamic folders

+placesFolderTitle=My Web
+recentlyCreatedBookmarksTitle=Newest Bookmarks
+recentlyVisitedBookmarksTitle=Recently Visited Bookmarks 
+mostVisitedBookmarksTitle=Most Visited Bookmarks
+recentlyUsedTagsTitle=Recently Used Tags
+mostUsedTagsTitle=Most Used Tags
+mostVisitedSitesTitle=Most Visited Sites


Perhaps "smart folders" is too literal?  I like the direction of "My Web" but it also feels a little microsofty
Flags: blocking-firefox3? → blocking-firefox3+
Keywords: uiwanted
Target Milestone: --- → Firefox 3 M10
Target Milestone: Firefox 3 M10 → Firefox 3 Mx
instead of "My Web", is "Saved Searches" any better?

Having "Places" and "Starred" show up in the UI seems like a bad idea to me.

I'd like to do something about this before we ship, as once created, we'll have to write special code to change the names of these queries.
I think "Smart Folders" on mac and "Saved Searches" on windows may be the best choice.  Also, I wonder if we shouldn't consider moving this folder to the bookmarks menu by default so we don't increase the complexity of our primary UI.
Target Milestone: Firefox 3 Mx → Firefox 3 M11
We should wait on B1 feedback before relegating it to the menu.
Priority: -- → P3
s/Starred Pages/Filed Bookmarks/ ?

However, I think it would be better to leave the names as-is, and make the folder contents live up to them. In bug 403053 I enlisted a quote from faaborg's recent Shape of Things post to the effect that single-click starred pages are bookmarks, and that they are hoped to become the most ubiquitous way of marking pages. Hence, IMO, they should have quick, convenient ways of dealing with them.

Filed starred pages have presumably already been put somewhere sufficiently/more convenient, so for me it's the un-filed that are most interesting. People are already wondering why they starred something and nothing happened. Telling them "star stuff so the URL bar will work more automagically" probably won't be as effective as letting them see that the quick single-click starring does do something visible, even useful.

For these and other reasons, I advocate leaving the name as is and using queries that include both filed and un-filed flavors.

Is this appropriate for this bug, fodder for a new bug, or sufficiently not gonna happen as to be not worth messing with?
I apologize for being an idiot. In my regular profile, even in safe-mode, unfiled bookmarks don't show up in the Starred Pages search folders. In a new profile, they do.

Ergo, it's a profile problem on my end and my preceding comment should basically be ignored.

I'll be quiet now.
Any time we say Starred Pages in the UI, we should really be saying "bookmarks" to emphasize that these are the same thing.
(In reply to comment #9)
> Any time we say Starred Pages in the UI, we should really be saying "bookmarks"
> to emphasize that these are the same thing.
> 
Except that I don't think they are. For example, one click on the urlbar star will star the site and show it in the Places folder. Two clicks on the star will bring up the Bookmark window and bookmark that site exactly where you would expect it to be, assuming no folder is defined, which is at the end of the list of bookmarks. The question then being...'If you guys say this star is a bookmark, why doesn't it go immediately where bookmarks go?'

Bookmarks in searches show up as starred, but I think it may be easier for people to think of Stars as another useful layer, in the same way that Tags will be seen.

Anyway, back to the bug in hand :)

My suggestion :

+placesFolderTitle=Stars
+recentlyCreatedBookmarksTitle=Recent Stars 
+recentlyVisitedBookmarksTitle=Recent Stars Visited
+mostVisitedBookmarksTitle=Top Stars Visited 
+recentlyUsedTagsTitle=Recent Tags
+mostUsedTagsTitle=Top Tags
+mostVisitedSitesTitle=Top Sites Visited

The reasonings are as follows. We ask people to accept the single word 'Tag' or 'Bookmark', why not 'Stars'? Certainly it conjures up an image in the mind, which the word 'Places' does not. I dropped Pages in favour of Sites, as pages sounds slightly old fashioned. Then dropped Sites (except where I had no choice) ...because we normally just say 'Bookmarks' and not 'Bookmarked Sites', so the same here. Then kept the wording as concise as possible and the words themselves short, where possible. 

I agree with Alex on the 'My'. 'My Anything' reeks of Microsoft..not good, haha.  

>The reasonings are as follows. We ask people to accept the single word 'Tag' or
>'Bookmark', why not 'Stars'?

Because we don't want to overload the same concept with two different names (a pretty common UI problem).

>'If you guys say this star is
>a bookmark, why doesn't it go immediately where bookmarks go?'

I think most of the confusion has to do with the fact that the Bookmarks and History window (formerly bookmarks organizer) isn't done yet.  Clicking on the star places the bookmark in "All Bookmarks > Unfiled Bookmarks"
for bug #404871, it looks like we have another reason to migrate (or remove / restore) the "Places" folder.

faaborg / beltzner, do we have a decision for better wording? 

I still think that having "Places" and "Starred" show up in the UI is a bad idea.
my suggestion is a mix of already given options, plus use Smart Bookmarks (in other locales could be translated like "dynamic bookmarks", since smart is not an easy word to translate correctly).

+placesFolderTitle=Smart Bookmarks
+recentlyCreatedBookmarksTitle=Recently Added
+recentlyVisitedBookmarksTitle=Recently Visited
+mostVisitedBookmarksTitle=Most Visited
+recentlyUsedTagsTitle=Recently Used Tags
+mostUsedTagsTitle=Most Used Tags
+mostVisitedSitesTitle=Suggested

@Comment #13: Tags is a similarly vague word for me, too general. What is it exactly? Anything like a label? Or like question tags? Or HTML tags? Such words are terrible. Anybody takes any very short *vague* word and the rest of the world shall know what the *precise* meaning of such an *empty* word is. The meaning or function of a word or phrase should be evident.
I'm in favor of calling placesFolderTitle "Saved Searches" on windows and "Smart Folders" on mac, so the formerly named places folder serves three purposes:

-the pre-populated folders are useful in themselves
-the pre-populated folders serve as examples of the kind of queries you can create
-the folder serves as a handy location to put the smart folders/saved searches in the future

The names "Saved Searches" and "Smart Folders" will fit into the conventions of each platform, leveraging external consistency both in names and icons.
taking
Assignee: nobody → sspitzer
For the names of the folders themselves, I think we should basically go with marco's suggestion, but we need to change the behavior for a few of the searches to include both bookmarks and history.  I also played with the order based on what I think people will probably end up using the most.

"Most Visited" (mostVisitedSitesTitle, not mostVisitedBookmarksTitle)

"Recently Visited" (should also include history, let's cut recentlyVisitedBookmarksTitle to shorten the list)

"Recently Bookmarked" (recentlyCreatedBookmarksTitle)

[separator]

Most Used Tags (mostUsedTagsTitle)
Recently Used Tags (recentlyUsedTagsTitle)



(In reply to comment #15)
> I'm in favor of calling placesFolderTitle "Saved Searches" on windows and
> "Smart Folders" on mac, so the formerly named places folder serves three
> purposes:

What about Linux? I sound like a broken record here, but Linux keeps being forgotten.
(In reply to comment #15)
> I'm in favor of calling placesFolderTitle "Saved Searches" on windows 
That term is illogical. I know you will still go ahead with it...because you thought of it...but, it is illogical. The term 'Saved Searches' does not convey or imply Bookmarks, be the plain, starred or tagged.


Not sure I like "Saved Searches", either, to be honest, and combined with Reed's comment, I wonder if it's worth splitting this on an OS basis since that means also splitting out any documentation we write about it (cf: the problem we have referring in release notes and online docs to "Preferences/Options").

(In reply to comment #13)
> +placesFolderTitle=Smart Bookmarks

I like this better than "Smart Folders", tbh.

(In reply to comment #17)
> For the names of the folders themselves, I think we should basically go with
> marco's suggestion, but we need to change the behavior for a few of the
> searches to include both bookmarks and history.  I also played with the order
> based on what I think people will probably end up using the most.
> 
> "Most Visited" (mostVisitedSitesTitle, not mostVisitedBookmarksTitle)

Maybe "Frequently" instead of "Most"? Agree cutting mostVisitedBookmarksTitle query.

> "Recently Visited" (should also include history, let's cut
> recentlyVisitedBookmarksTitle to shorten the list)

Agree that we should shorten the list, but disagree that it should include history; I think mixing history and bookmarks is going to be confusing, and the user's already got history in their history UI (History menu, back buttons).

> "Recently Bookmarked" (recentlyCreatedBookmarksTitle)

Please swap "Recently Bookmarked" and "Recently Visited".

> [separator]
> 
> Most Used Tags (mostUsedTagsTitle)
> Recently Used Tags (recentlyUsedTagsTitle)

Does "used" mean "visited" or "applied"?
Thinking more, I see why Alex had "recently visited" and "recently added" in the order that he did, and it makes sense. My bad. I've been struggling with "most used tags", and wonder if instead we should just call them "popular".

So ...

Smart Bookmarks
  Frequently Visited
  Recently Visited
  Recently Added
  -------------------
  Popular Tags
  Recently Tagged

(removing uiwanted, consider comment 21 as de facto design)
Keywords: uiwanted
thanks beltzner / faaborg / others for the wording.  will use comment #21 as the design.

I plan on fixing this along with bug #405231.
Status: NEW → ASSIGNED
(In reply to comment #21)

> Smart Bookmarks
>   Frequently Visited
>   Recently Visited
>   Recently Added
>   -------------------
>   Popular Tags
>   Recently Tagged
> 

+1 apart from 'Recently Tagged', which reads a little clumsily. Perhaps just 'Recent Tags' there? 
Chatting more with Seth, couple of concerns
 - everything's bookmarks except for "Frequently Visited"
 - "Frequently" doesn't express that it's in a specific order
 - not sure that recently visited bookmarks is as useful as "most visited pages"
 - not sure that tags are going to be all that popular

Thinking a little more about this, but I wonder if we might even need to simplify more ...

Smart Bookmarks
  Most Visited Pages
  Recently Added Bookmarks
  ------------------------
  Browse Tags
(In reply to comment #25)

> Thinking a little more about this, but I wonder if we might even need to
> simplify more ...
> 
> Smart Bookmarks
>   Most Visited Pages
>   Recently Added Bookmarks
>   ------------------------
>   Browse Tags

Trouble then, Mike, is that your 'Smart Bookmarks' are not looking all that smart. It's an expectations thing, you open up the folder and there are only 3 things there...one of which, the 'Browse Tags', isn't even smart. The 'smart' side implies that some of the work has been done for you, i.e. 'Hey! here's your Top Ten Tags! and even your Top Ten Recent Tags!' and not, 'Here you go, browse the tags yourself....'

Once the number of entries is finally established (I reckon 5, as in comment 21, gives good 'value for money') then the actual wording could be trimmed, i.e. 'Top' instead of 'Popular' or whatever.


>[comment 18] What about Linux? I sound like a broken record here, but Linux >keeps being forgotten.

It's not forgotten, I just don't know what we should do given the complex landscape.  Gnome is similar to vista (or perhaps vice versa) with the wording "saved search." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_folder)  Do any of the other distro's have a concept of search folders that we might want to leverage for external consistency?

>[comment 19] That term is illogical. I know you will still go ahead with >it...because you thought of it...but, it is illogical

If you follow my comments in bugzilla and the number of iterations we do on mockups, I think you'll see that I'm always open to criticism and new ideas.  For instance: I agree with beltzner's comment to include bookmarks in the title.  This even meshes well with other instances of smart folders, like in iTunes ("Smart Playlist"), and mail.app ("Smart Inbox").

> [comment 25]- not sure that recently visited bookmarks is as useful as "most > visited pages"

Given the popularity of the drop down marker in the location bar, I thought integrating in history and having the item be most visited pages made the most sense.  Also:

-A bookmark folder that works even when you don't bookmark anything really is a smart bookmark.
-This will feature our integration of history and bookmarks, I also am viewing this folder as a set of examples of things you can do with places, in addition to being useful by itself.

Let's simplify the text a little more to reduce mouse movement to the subfolder.  Also, the user may have thousands of tags, so perhaps we should go with recent:

Smart Bookmarks
  Most Visited
  Recently Bookmarked
  -------------------
  Recent Tags

(In reply to comment #27)
> Let's simplify the text a little more to reduce mouse movement to the
> subfolder.  Also, the user may have thousands of tags, so perhaps we should go
> with recent:

I'd thought of that, but went with "Tags" for two reasons:

1. I don't actually think we're gonna get thousands of tags as the primary case
2. There's no other place in the primary chrome that will act as a tag browser

However, if we make "recent" == "50" or something, I suppose that effectively ends up resulting in the same thing. I'll let Seth decide.

> Smart Bookmarks
>   Most Visited
>   Recently Bookmarked
>   -------------------
>   Recent Tags

That's fine with me; I keep going back and forth between "Most Visited Pages" as a way of indicating that it includes history and bookmarks, but I guess that's academic, and less wordy is always better.
Thinking more about the terminology difference between Apple and Microsoft (Smart Folder vs. Saved Search), there are probably more people on windows who have encountered the Smart Playlist feature of iTunes, then there are Vista users who have encountered Saved Searches.  So while Apple and Microsoft have different terminology, the Apple term might ironically be the dominate one on Windows as well.
Alex, you're probably right, i have used Vista for about 1 year, and today i found saved searches (notice that in Vista italian version it's called only "Searches" so the Saved is not a substantial part of the name in all the locales), i had never used/seen that!
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I've gone with:

Smart Bookmarks
  Most Visited
  Recently Bookmarked
  -------------------
  Recent Tags

still limiting to 10 items.  see bug #399268 about that.

See also #399266 (improve perf of the "most visited pages" pre-defined query).

updated patch coming
Blocks: 399266

    
    

    
  


  

        Attachment #291339 -
        Attachment is obsolete: true

        Attachment #291340 -
        Attachment is obsolete: true

    
    

    
  
(In reply to comment #27)

> >[comment 19] That term is illogical. I know you will still go ahead with >it...because you thought of it...but, it is illogical
> 
> If you follow my comments in bugzilla and the number of iterations we do on
> mockups, I think you'll see that I'm always open to criticism and new ideas. 
My apologies. I have read far too many bug reports where that has been precisely what's happened. However, it was unfair of me to direct that one at you personally. My apologies again.

        Attachment #291364 -
        Flags: review?(dietrich)

        Attachment #291364 -
        Flags: review?(dietrich) → review+

    
  
Whiteboard: [needs landing]

    
    

    
  
fixed during m10 as it blocks an m10 blocker.

Checking in browser/app/profile/firefox.js;
/cvsroot/mozilla/browser/app/profile/firefox.js,v  <--  firefox.js
new revision: 1.233; previous revision: 1.232
done
Checking in browser/components/nsBrowserGlue.js;
/cvsroot/mozilla/browser/components/nsBrowserGlue.js,v  <--  nsBrowserGlue.js
new revision: 1.43; previous revision: 1.42
done
Checking in browser/components/places/tests/unit/test_bookmarks_html.js;
/cvsroot/mozilla/browser/components/places/tests/unit/test_bookmarks_html.js,v
<--  test_bookmarks_html.js
new revision: 1.15; previous revision: 1.14
done
Checking in browser/locales/en-US/chrome/browser/places/places.properties;
/cvsroot/mozilla/browser/locales/en-US/chrome/browser/places/places.properties,v
  <--  places.properties
new revision: 1.33; previous revision: 1.32
done
Status: ASSIGNED → RESOLVED
Closed: 17 years ago
Flags: in-litmus?
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Target Milestone: Firefox 3 M11 → Firefox 3 M10
Whiteboard: [needs landing]

    
    

    
  
verified fixed using Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9b2pre) Gecko/2007120405 Minefield/3.0b2pre and Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9b2pre) Gecko/2007120404 Minefield/3.0b2pre the places toolbar folder is now renamed to "Smart Bookmarks"
Status: RESOLVED → VERIFIED

    
    

    
  
> the places toolbar folder is now renamed to "Smart Bookmarks"

to clarify, the folder should not be renamed.

1)  for a new profile, you should not get a "Places" folder in the toolbar, you should get a "Smart Bookmarks" folder.  same goes when migrating from fx 2 to fx 3 for the first time.

2) for an existing fx 3 b1 profile, you should a new "Smart Bookmarks" folder.  if you had a "Places" folder from fx 3 b1, it should remain.

removing the "Places" folder created in fx 3b1 is wontfix, see bug #406696 for the reasons.

cbook / abillings:  let me know if you have questions.

    
    

    
  
I've verified this behavior in Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9b2pre) Gecko/2007120404 Minefield/3.0b2pre by creating and recreating Places and Smart Bookmarks folder with this build and the previous day's build. 

    
    

    
  
It's a kind of problematic, especially for localization.

Like said in Comment #13, "Smart Bookmarks" is not easily localizable. However, "Dynamic Bookmarks" is IMHO not much better, as it collides with the metaphor "Live Bookmarks" (which is't easy to localize either).  Anyone got any other suggestions that localizers could use?

    
    

    
  
I'm not sure how much latitude we normally give localizers to change names, but I think anything along the lines of smart/intelligent/clever/insightful/knowledgeable/intuitive would fit with the general spirit of the name Smart Bookmarks.

    
    

    
  
Could we add a localization note to that effect?

    
    

    
  
Why "Places Organizer" was not renamed?

    
    

    
  
(In reply to comment #42)
> I'm not sure how much latitude we normally give localizers to change names, but
> I think anything along the lines of
> smart/intelligent/clever/insightful/knowledgeable/intuitive would fit with the
> general spirit of the name Smart Bookmarks.

How about "selected bookmarks" (in the sense of "carefully selected") or "filtered bookmarks"? Not all languages have a tradition of calling *things* smart. I'm afraid Lithuanian is one of those that don't.

    
    

    
  
If we call pre-defined queries "Smart Bookmark", we should take care about user-defined queries too.
# IMHO, We shouldn't use the word "query", which is not kind for general users.

http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/browser/locales/en-US/chrome/browser/places/places.properties#93
-saveSearch.title=Save Search
-saveSearch.inputLabel=Name:
-saveSearch.defaultText=New Query
+saveSearch.title=Save Search as Smart Bookmarks
+saveSearch.inputLabel=Name:
+saveSearch.defaultText=New Smart Bookmarks

# This is used in the dialog to save bookmark search results.

    
    

    
  
this isn't really a test case.  any wording changes with have to be reflected in an test case that uses changed settings/strings : in-litmus-  
Flags: in-litmus? → in-litmus-

    
    

    
  
Bug 451915 - move Firefox/Places bugs to Firefox/Bookmarks and History. Remove all bugspam from this move by filtering for the string "places-to-b-and-h".

In Thunderbird 3.0b, you do that as follows:
Tools | Message Filters
Make sure the correct account is selected. Click "New"
Conditions: Body   contains   places-to-b-and-h
Change the action to "Delete Message".
Select "Manually Run" from the dropdown at the top.
Click OK.

Select the filter in the list, make sure "Inbox" is selected at the bottom, and click "Run Now". This should delete all the bugspam. You can then delete the filter.

Gerv
Component: Places → Bookmarks & History
QA Contact: places → bookmarks

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