Closed Bug 522000 Opened 11 years ago Closed 8 years ago

[nl] Choose search plug-ins for Fennec in Dutch

Categories

(Mozilla Localizations :: nl / Dutch, defect)

defect
Not set

Tracking

(Not tracked)

RESOLVED INCOMPLETE

People

(Reporter: stas, Unassigned)

References

Details

(Keywords: productization, Whiteboard: [bootstrapped][twitter][bol.com])

Attachments

(1 obsolete file)

You've indicated an interest in participating in the localization of mobile Firefox (aka Fennec). We want to ship Fennec with a good list of search engines for Dutch. As the technical details of implementation are being worked on, we'd like to start the discussion about the choice of search engines. This bug is about agreeing on a set of search engines, and will not tackle the implementation (at least not yet).

First, the localization team and Staś will look at the market for the locale and come up with a good set of search providers. The guidelines for making recommendations are on https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Mobile/Productization. You're welcome to suggest engines already shipped in desktop Firefox for Dutch, if they fit well in the categories outlined on the wiki.

For en-US, we currently use the following set, which may serve as an inspiration:
Google, Wikipedia, Amazon, Yahoo, Twitter.

Note that according to the guidelines, for some categories it may be better to leave them empty than to ship with en engine that's irrelevant or unavailable in your region.

After we decided on a particular search engine, we will need to test it in Fennec. You can test on a mobile device and on the desktop (download the builds from <http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mobile/nightly/>). Staś will help with testing on a device, too. If the service works fine, Staś will contact the owner and ask for permission, and for specifics like proper search flags. $name, we'll likely need your help to at least get the contact information if we don't have them already.

We don't know the implementation details yet, so for now, please don't create patches nor land anything. We will keep you posted as we figure out the how's and when's.

Thanks.
Hi Guys:  Just a friendly reminder, as we move closer to the general availability date for Fennec in mid-December, has your team had any chance to consider search providers?  Thanks!
Global search:
- Google NL, Google has like 90% of the search market here

Reference search:
- Wikipedia NL, one of the top 10 wikipedia languages

E-commerce search:
- bol.com, pretty much the Dutch equivalent of Amazon

Local search:
- Maybe ilse.nl, traditionally the Dutch search engine, but nowadays not very popular anymore (Google owns all), and don’t think it really has ‘local’ information.
- Another possibility would be goudengids.nl (the yellow pages)
- (Or nothing)

Social search:
- Hyves.nl is the most popular social networking site here.

~Laurens
As an ‘extra search’ (in stead of a local search) I would recommend Marktplaats.nl. It’s a very popular auctioning/classifieds site (owned by eBay).
OK, our list is shaping up to be the following:

Global search:
- Google NL, Google has like 90% of the search market here

Reference search:
- Wikipedia NL, one of the top 10 wikipedia languages

E-commerce search:
- bol.com
-Marktplaats.nl

Local search:
-nothing because Google is so pervasive

Social search:
- Hyves.nl

How does that look?  Should we have two in the E-commerce section?
I’m having doubts on using Hyves. Should we really need a Social search plug-in?

Two in the E-commerce section is like in Firefox NL right now - it uses both. What about sticking to FF as much as possible, and thus using the current ones in hg? (And thus, why using Hyves when FF doesn’t?)
(In reply to comment #5)
> I’m having doubts on using Hyves. Should we really need a Social search
> plug-in?

Seems like the typical use-case for mobile devices has a *bit* more of a social element to it.  But, that might be the opinion of me and the handful of other UI/UE people at Mozilla chatting about it.  I hear what you are saying on this one.

> Two in the E-commerce section is like in Firefox NL right now - it uses both.
> What about sticking to FF as much as possible, and thus using the current ones
> in hg? (And thus, why using Hyves when FF doesn’t?)

Anyone else in the nl community care to comment here?  I would be fine to have it mimic FF, but it's really your community decision to make.  You know best for Dutch users.  I can see a reason to include social search.

Correspondingly, should we consider changing FF to include a social search engine like Hyves. 

Quick question:  Does Hyves, like Facebook, require a log in to use its service?
(In reply to comment #6)
> (In reply to comment #5)
> > I’m having doubts on using Hyves. Should we really need a Social search
> > plug-in?
> 
> Seems like the typical use-case for mobile devices has a *bit* more of a social
> element to it.  But, that might be the opinion of me and the handful of other
> UI/UE people at Mozilla chatting about it.  I hear what you are saying on this
> one.

Well, it’s not like social networking is less big here than in the US. And Hyves (ugly as it may be —yes they managed to copy that from Myspace as well—) is definitely the biggest Dutch social networking site.

> > Two in the E-commerce section is like in Firefox NL right now - it uses both.
> > What about sticking to FF as much as possible, and thus using the current ones
> > in hg? (And thus, why using Hyves when FF doesn’t?)
> 
> Anyone else in the nl community care to comment here?  I would be fine to have
> it mimic FF, but it's really your community decision to make.  You know best
> for Dutch users.  I can see a reason to include social search.

If you want to mirror the Firefox search plugins, I think that should be a global decision, not just for the Dutch locale. As long as a social is one of the standard search categories, I see no benefit in us making a choice not to include one.

Our decision to include sites should be made based on merit of having them, not based on a technical concern of the Firefox and Fennec default search plugins not being the same.

Personally I don’t care much for the Firefox and Fennec lists being identical; it’s probably true that you use a mobile device differently than a desktop browser, although I personally don’t social network much on my mobile other than reading tweets occasionally when there is some event. But I’m sure there are others who are dying to let the world know whatever unimportant thing they are doing right now :).

> Correspondingly, should we consider changing FF to include a social search
> engine like Hyves. 

Perhaps yes.

> Quick question:  Does Hyves, like Facebook, require a log in to use its
> service?

It depends on profile settings how much you can see, e.g. of one of my nieces I can see pictures and messages and some other things without being logged in, and of another of my nieces you can’t see anything besides name and profile picture.
(In reply to comment #7)
> > Correspondingly, should we consider changing FF to include a social search
> > engine like Hyves. 
> 
> Perhaps yes.
> 
> > Quick question:  Does Hyves, like Facebook, require a log in to use its
> > service?
> 
> It depends on profile settings how much you can see, e.g. of one of my nieces I
> can see pictures and messages and some other things without being logged in,
> and of another of my nieces you can’t see anything besides name and profile
> picture.

I think we should include it, but it's up to you guys to make the final call.  Here is the list so far:

Global search:
- Google NL

Reference search:
- Wikipedia NL

E-commerce search:
- bol.com

Local search:
- nothing

Social search:
- Hyves.nl
Here's a patch resetting the mobile/searchplugins/ directory to a minimal set of search engines that we would like to ship your locale with. Please read this comment carefully before you land this patch.

*Important*: There has been a change to how we use the  <Description/> elements present in the plug-ins (see bug 528655 and bug 529869). We want to emphasize that the search is integrated with the browser to better reflect what a search plugin is and what it does. You will need to edit the Wikipedia plug-in before you commit this patch. Please read <https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Integrated_Search_Instructions> for detailed instructions.

For Google, we don't have to copy the XML file to your mobile/searchplugins/ directory. Plugins identical to en-US are pulled from source automatically. It's enough to put the engine's name in list.txt for this to work (which I did). I also updated the Wikipedia plug-in to use a bigger icon, see bug 517997 for details.

Please edit the Wikipedia plug-in and commit this patch before you opt-in in the mozilla.dev.l10n newsgroup. Opt-ins without this patch will not be taken. This does not mean that we don't want to include other search engines. On the contrary, the work and the discussion will continue in this bug until we choose a good set of search engines for your locale. Then, you will be able to opt in again, so that in the final release we include more search engines than the mineral set from this patch.

This patch is simply meant to reset your mobile/searchplugins directory so that we keep the repository clean and happy.

Thanks for understanding!
Comment on attachment 414634 [details] [diff] [review]
Bootstrapping search engines with Google and localized Wikipedia

applied
Attachment #414634 - Attachment is obsolete: true
the list:

google
wikipedia-nl
bolcom-nl
hyves-nl
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 11 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
We can't mark this as fixed yet. And in fact, you shouldn't have landed bol.com and hyves without a review, sorry. We need to reach out to them and ask for permissions. Would mind helping me find contact information? Thanks.
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: FIXED → ---
Also, why did marktplaats.nl disappear from the list somewhere between comment 4 and comment 8 (and is not in the final list)?
we use bol.com also in firefox so we have there permission.

hyves:

i cant find a email adres but maybey you can use this site http://trac.hyves-api.nl/
(In reply to comment #14)
> Also, why did marktplaats.nl disappear from the list somewhere between comment
> 4 and comment 8 (and is not in the final list)?

Good catch, but in fact, I think having one search form the e-commerce category is enough. We don;t have too many space, so we should try to reduce the list, not to extend it :)

However, it seems that we could add goudengids.nl in the local search category (and have one engine from each category which is a very good situation). What do you guys think?

google
wikipedia-nl
goudengids (permission needed)
bolcom-nl
hyves-nl (permission needed, I'll try to contact them)
Two more things:

1. can you please back out hyves.nl engine for now? We won't be able to take your opt-in with it until we have the permission. I'll reach out to them and if get the permission, we can re-add the plugin later.

2. can you please make sure bol.com's description in the plugin mentions the fact that the engine is integrated into the browser? Please see https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Integrated_Search_Instructions#L10n_implementation for details.

Thanks!
(In reply to comment #17)
> Two more things:
> 
> 1. can you please back out hyves.nl engine for now? We won't be able to take
> your opt-in with it until we have the permission. I'll reach out to them and if
> get the permission, we can re-add the plugin later.
> 
> 2. can you please make sure bol.com's description in the plugin mentions the
> fact that the engine is integrated into the browser? Please see
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Integrated_Search_Instructions#L10n_implementation
> for details.
> 
> Thanks!

i removed hyves from list.txt so it will not be used in the next build (for now)
and i removed the decription from bol.com

http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/l10n-mozilla-1.9.2/nl/rev/48ed62671555
Regarding Hyves: apart from my personal opinion about Hyves itself, I would say there would be more of a need to include a social networking plug-in for fixed browsers rather than for mobile ones, as opposed to Seths opinion in comment 6. Also, _if_ it is included, I’d pleed for doing so for FF as well. On the other hand, as Hyves sometimes needs users to be logged in _and_ permission for certain people to see their profile, this may be a reason not to include it. Either way is fine with me though, as long as it’s similar in FF and Fennec.

And of course: are you sure bol.com and Marktplaats automatically agree to include them in Fennec as well?
(In reply to comment #18)
> i removed hyves from list.txt so it will not be used in the next build (for
> now)
> and i removed the decription from bol.com
> 
> http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/l10n-mozilla-1.9.2/nl/rev/48ed62671555

Perfect, thank you.

I sent the email to hostmaster@hyves.nl, which I found via .nl's whois lookup.

Any thoughts about goudengids.nl ?

(In reply to comment #19)
> Regarding Hyves: apart from my personal opinion about Hyves itself, I would say
> there would be more of a need to include a social networking plug-in for fixed
> browsers rather than for mobile ones, as opposed to Seths opinion in comment 6.
> Also, _if_ it is included, I’d pleed for doing so for FF as well. On the other
> hand, as Hyves sometimes needs users to be logged in _and_ permission for
> certain people to see their profile, this may be a reason not to include it.
> Either way is fine with me though, as long as it’s similar in FF and Fennec.

I'd argue that Fennec will be used in different contexts, maybe by different people as well. This is why we want to experiment with offering the users a different set of search engines, one that we believe is more adapted to the mobile browsing experience.

I hear your points about Hyves requiring to log in, I have my doubts as well. But, it seems that you can still see some profile information without being logged in (more like myspace than facebook), so in the end, if that's the team's recommendation, I'll support that.

> And of course: are you sure bol.com and Marktplaats automatically agree to
> include them in Fennec as well?

We have their permissions for Firefox, which is what Fennec is. We're not asking for permissions every time we release a new verision of Firefox, and so the permissions that we have right now are valid for Firefox Mobile as well. But, as a matter of courtesy, I'll email them to inform about this fact.
Whiteboard: [bootstrapped][twitter][bol.com]
(In reply to comment #20)

> Any thoughts about goudengids.nl ?

Tim: what do you think about this suggestion?

Also, I emailed hyves.nl again today (I got an autoresponder messages last time).
goudengids is a good suggestion.

i hope that you get a answer soon otherwise i will opt-in without hyves (and goudengids) so we are sure we join the party

And i hope that bug 531807 gets fixed soon so i can test the searchplugins
(In reply to comment #22)
> goudengids is a good suggestion.

We can only pass one argument to a search engine, so I guess we could do a Netherlands-wide search, as in this example: <http://www.detelefoongids.nl/bg/-/w-pizza/1/> ?

Tim, can you help me to find the contact information to goudengids.nl/detelefoongids.nl, please?


> i hope that you get a answer soon otherwise i will opt-in without hyves (and
> goudengids) so we are sure we join the party

You can opt in right now, and then re-opt in again with hyves.
i can only find a form http://over.detelefoongids.nl/corporate/show/id=41137 and the adres/phone here in a'dam
ok in the latest build we have

google, bol.com, wikipedia.

we are waiting for permission for 

telefoongids, hyves

Does somebody know how i fix the logo of bol.com? In the linuxbuild the logo looks terrible.
stas did you get the permission already?
With the upcoming release of 1.1 we really need to fix this. Stas do i need to do something (make a phone call or something) to get the permissions or rejection.
I have a permission from Hyves and I owe them a reply. Thanks for putting this bug back on my radar.

The URL they suggested that we use is:
http://www.hyves.nl/mini/search/?searchterms={searchTerms}&source=fennec

I'm leaning towards asking them not to redirect to the mobile version of the site for Fennec users, just use the regular, desktop version instead. What do you think?

The icon:
http://cache.hyves-static.net/images/logo/app/icon_32.png

No word from telefoongids.
(In reply to comment #28)
> I have a permission from Hyves and I owe them a reply. Thanks for putting this
> bug back on my radar.
> 
> The URL they suggested that we use is:
> http://www.hyves.nl/mini/search/?searchterms={searchTerms}&source=fennec
> 
> I'm leaning towards asking them not to redirect to the mobile version of the
> site for Fennec users, just use the regular, desktop version instead. What do
> you think?

The mobile version looks a lot cleaner on my blackbarry (with operera mini) but if you click on a search result you have to log in. In the desktop version you can go to the search result without logging in (if the page is public). So i think it is better to use

http://www.hyves.nl/search/?searchterms={searchTerms}&source=fennec

> 
> The icon:
> http://cache.hyves-static.net/images/logo/app/icon_32.png
> 
> No word from telefoongids.

I can try to call them if you want?
2 years later and still no action, let's close this bug and open a new one for firefox mobile if it is still a issue
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Closed: 11 years ago8 years ago
Resolution: --- → INCOMPLETE
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