550960 - Cannot disable or delete unwanted "Smart Folders" and related features

Status: RESOLVED DUPLICATE of bug 545221

(Thunderbird :: Folder and Message Lists, defect)

Description

[Fenton]

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2) Gecko/20100115 Firefox/3.6
Build Identifier: 2.0.0.23 (20090812) reloaded back from 3.0.3

Upgraded to version 3.0.3 which has no explicit optional checkbox to "Leave messages on server" (i.e., in Account Settings, Server Settings) which is necessary for concurrent use with Thunderbird and Microsoft Office email clients. As a result, downgraded to version 2.0.0.23.  However, now I cannot get rid of "Smart Folders" and the appearance on the new email account above "Local Folders" after adding a new mailbox.  The old mailboxes do not behave this way. There should be a way to select the desired behavior (i.e., classic v. new) and upon reversion back to version 2, the inconsistent version 3 behavior should not survive.

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1. Upgraded to version 3.0.3.
2. Downgraded to version 2.0.0.23
Actual Results:  
1. Version 3.0.3 had adverse and unexpected results.
2. After downgrade adverse results remained which are not part of version 2.0.0.23.

Expected Results:  
The absence of "Leave messages on server" in version 3 is fatal to my future use of Thunderbird.  In addition, Version 2.0.0.23 should have been as it was regarding format, features and functionality before the Version 3.0.3 upgrade.  To fix this bug in Version 3, the user should be able to select the new options/old options (e.g., "Leave messages on server") to implement or delete account, format and mailbox displays consistent with version 2.

This new [version 3) and its dramatic paradigm shift by the Mozilla Project, regarding behavior, display and functionality mirroring the same complex and hidden Microsoft behaviors, no longer distinguishes Thunderbird's previous simple and straightforward approach from the competition (i.e, Microsoft's techno-software).  As a result, one more big advantage to migrate from Microsoft to Mozilla has been eliminated.

Comment 1

[Nathan Tuggy (:tuggyne)]

(In reply to comment #0)
> Upgraded to version 3.0.3 which has no explicit optional checkbox to "Leave
> messages on server" (i.e., in Account Settings, Server Settings)

This works for me with POP accounts in 3.0.3 (that is, there is in fact a checkbox labeled that, and I have it checked on my one POP account); IMAP accounts, by definition, always leave mail on the server, so the checkbox doesn't apply.

> However, now I cannot
> get rid of "Smart Folders" and the appearance on the new email account above
> "Local Folders" after adding a new mailbox.

Can you give the steps you tried to use to do this, and the exact expected and actual results? Screenshots attached to this bug would also help a great deal.

> The old mailboxes do not behave
> this way. There should be a way to select the desired behavior (i.e., classic
> v. new) and upon reversion back to version 2, the inconsistent version 3
> behavior should not survive.

Also note that Help -> Migration Assistant (in 3.0) allows you to easily switch Smart/Unified Folders off (along with message synchronization and similar things). Obviously, this won't help your current situation much, unless you re-upgrade to 3.0.3 and fix your profile there.

Note that I'm using Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.3 ID:20100227143138 for testing this.

Comment 2

[Fenton]

> This works for me with POP accounts in 3.0.3 (that is, there is in fact
> a checkbox labeled that, and I have it checked on my one POP account); 
> IMAP accounts, by definition, always leave mail on the server, so the 
> checkbox doesn't apply.
Version 3.0 setup, unless "stop" is elected, defaults to IMAP. Unless one is aware of the requirement to "stop" the email account check forcing POP, the checkbox will not be there.

> Can you give the steps you tried to use to do this, and the exact 
> expected and actual results? Screenshots attached to this bug would 
> also help a great deal.
1. Started with Version 2.
2. Upgraded to version 3.0.3.
3. Downgraded to version 2.0.0.23
It wasn't until I completed step 3 and the "Smart Folders" persisted that I discovered the problem. This is what I have now:
http://dcg1.com/thunderbird.gif
I do not believe Version 2 has this "Smart Folders" feature, but mine does.

> Also note that Help -> Migration Assistant (in 3.0) allows you to 
> easily switch Smart/Unified Folders off (along with message 
> synchronization and similar things). Obviously, this won't help 
> your current situation much, unless you re-upgrade to 3.0.3 and 
> fix your profile there.
When in Version 3 I found that the migration manager had no effect on changing the behaviors. I tried a reboot, still no change.  It seems that under Version 3, the old mailboxes are preserved, but new ones are implemented with "Smart Folders" and discrete mailboxes at the top of the menu which cannot be "dragged and Dropped" into the menus below.

The underlying major issue is the obvious advantage of a "plain, simple and powerful" Mozilla compared to seemingly relentless relearning of the complexities of Microsoft software offerings.  That is why my clients prefer Mozilla and complain about Microsoft frequently changing menus, functionality and behavior which wastes a lot of time every time a new release is needed.

Comment 3

[Nathan Tuggy (:tuggyne)]

(In reply to comment #2)
> Version 3.0 setup, unless "stop" is elected, defaults to IMAP. Unless one is
> aware of the requirement to "stop" the email account check forcing POP, the
> checkbox will not be there.

While this is quite annoying if you want a POP account (and looks like bug 547812 and probably a number of others; see also https://support.mozillamessaging.com/kb/FAQ+Changing+IMAP+to+POP for a workaround), I fail to see how this causes problems with other clients: Thunderbird will not remove mail from an IMAP server, and therefore effectively functions as if this checkbox was always ticked.
Now if you *want* Thunderbird to remove mail from the server, then I can see that this would be a problem, and you'd need to use the workaround above to get a POP account. (From my experience, a large majority of users have far more trouble and pain with undesirably removing mail than with undesirably leaving it there, so I assumed this was your case also.)


But back to the main point of this bug:
> > > However, now I cannot get rid 
> > > of "Smart Folders" and the appearance on the new email account above 
> > > "Local Folders" after adding a new mailbox.
> > Can you give the steps you tried to use to do this, and the exact 
> > expected and actual results? Screenshots attached to this bug would 
> > also help a great deal.
> 1. Started with Version 2.
> 2. Upgraded to version 3.0.3.
> 3. Downgraded to version 2.0.0.23

I meant steps you used to add an account (in 2.x) or remove Smart Folders (in 3.0.x and 2.x both); you already provided the history of upgrades and downgrades in comment #0.

> http://dcg1.com/thunderbird.gif

This screenshot is helpful, thanks, although it would be nice to attach it to this bug (with Add an attachment in the Attachments table; other image hosts have an unfortunate habit of going down, deactivating accounts, removing images, etc over the years, while Bugzilla is long-lived).
It looks like TB 2.x is displaying the "fake server" that Smart/Unified folders uses under the cover as though it was a real account; there isn't any way to remove this from the Account Manager, either. (Workaround: You can do this in Tools -> Options -> Advanced -> General -> Config Editor by finding the 'mail.server.serverN.hostname' pref with 'smart mailboxes' for the value, and removing that serverN value from the comma-separated list in the 'mail.accountmanager.accounts' pref, then restarting, but this is a bit fiddly.)
This should maybe be its own bug (or the other problems here should have their own bugs, as the case may be), but I doubt it can/will be fixed -- making any non-security changes to 2.x is very dubious, and even 3.0.x shouldn't be destabilized by trying to figure out a new backwards-compatible way to get Smart Folders in.

> When in Version 3 I found that the migration manager had no effect on changing
> the behaviors. I tried a reboot, still no change.  It seems that under Version
> 3, the old mailboxes are preserved, but new ones are implemented with "Smart
> Folders" and discrete mailboxes at the top of the menu which cannot be
> "dragged and Dropped" into the menus below.

You're right, this doesn't help with 2.x backwards-compatibility (although it does work within 3.x, unless something very very peculiar is going on).

Comment 4

[Fenton]

1. I agree that whether backwards or forward compatibility creates an error only needs to be addressed if catastrophic to the process or wihout a workaround - otherwise such errors should go on a list as a lesson to better manage the next major release.

2. I successfully eliminate "Smart Folders" with Tools -> Options -> Advanced -> Config Editor while in Version 2. However, to prevent trashing the config settings inadvertently, I would suggest that Tools -> Options -> Display have an option to accomplish this task rather than using the Config Editor or the ad hoc "Migration Manager" [which looks like a workaround or patch agent].

3. I upgraded to Version 3 once again. The set-up for a new account via the Mail Account Setup offers the choice of POP or IMAP via pull-down menu, but only if "STOP" is invoked before the check completes.  And, using Tools -> Account Settings -> Server Settings [for a particular mailbox], there is no way to convert POP to IMAP or vice versa.  There also appears to be vastly different options [by the wording] under "Check for new messages every ...".  However, not a lot of folks know the POP v. IMAP differences. As a result, I would suggest that this screen be consistent and have all the options of both POP and IMAP present and gray out the unavailable options noting whether related to POP or IMAP only.  Once the migration from POP to IMAP matures over the next few years, the next release needs to reconsider this approach. Also, if "STOP" is not invoked, the setup goes right to an "IMAP" setup. There should be a way for setup to identify an optional path to setup a "POP" account. 

4. The only remaining issue is that all new mailboxes have a discrete appearance under "All Folders" in addition to "Local Folders", and each discrete appearance has its own "inbox" and "trash" folders.  The boldface on each unexpanded discrete mailbox suggests that unread mail is in them which may not be the case. Only after opening each, can unread mail can be identified.  My other 20 mail accounts [created under version 2] are absent from discrete listings.  This is a conversion issue.  In addition, there appears to be no option to disable the discrete mailbox feature, particularly if Tools -> Message Filters is the desired method to populate "Local Folders" rather than by discrete mailbox. If all of my 20 mailboxes were discretely present with their own mailboxes, inboxes, trash and topical "Local Folders" such approach would be unmanageable, or if filters were used to populate "Local Folders", such would be unnecessary.  I would suggest that discrete mailboxes under "All Folders" be a feature option, rather than a requirement just as creating topical "Local Folders" are an option.

Comment 5

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

just skimming, I think all these issues are covered in other bugs. (Some won't be resolved until v3.1.) So perhaps this can be closed invalid unless you want to narrow this bug to one issue that is not covered in other bugs.

see also 
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_3.0_installation_issues
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Go_back_to_an_old_version_of_Thunderbird

Comment 6

[Fenton]

The only compelling issue fatal for me to continue using Thunderbird is #4: discrete mailboxes under "All Folders" should be a feature option, rather than a requirement. If his is covered elsewhere, please advise and close this out. Thanks.

Comment 7

[Fenton]

The only compelling issue fatal for me to continue using Thunderbird is #4: discrete mailboxes under "All Folders" should be a feature option, rather than a requirement. If his is covered elsewhere, please advise and close this out. Thanks.

Comment 8

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

it will be fixed in bug 545221.
no need to comment there unless it doesn't work for you in the next update.