728398 - http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot missing

Status: NEW

(www.mozilla.org :: General, defect)

Description

[Moses J Bermea [:mjb]]

Attachment: Screenshot of 404

User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:13.0a1) Gecko/20120217 Firefox/13.0a1
Build ID: 20120217031227

Steps to reproduce:

I tried to go to the mozbot web page (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot) to download mozbot source code.


Actual results:

The server gave me a 404 error.


Expected results:

It should have allowed me to get onto the website and download Mozbot source.

Comment 1

[Chris Ilias [:cilias]]

For now, you can access the page at <http://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/>.

The page was last updated in 2009, but those changes are not present in the archived version. Maybe the site was frozen while archiving was taking place?

Looking at <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozbot>, it also points to the www.mozilla.org page.

It seems to me that this might a candidate for un-archiving. Either that, or the content moved to wiki.m.o. 

Wolf, what do you think?

Comment 2

[Chris Ilias [:cilias]]

(In reply to Chris Ilias [:cilias] from comment #1)
> For now, you can access the page at
> <http://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/>.
> 
> The page was last updated in 2009, but those changes are not present in the
> archived version. Maybe the site was frozen while archiving was taking place?

Oops, I just realized that the archived version is from a full year before that change.

Comment 3

[Wolf [:wolf]]

Umm... Mozbot's not a very active project but I certainly would have expected to be told before the project's website was removed from the server.

I'm not familar with the wiki page and I don't think its appropriate to store the project website on the wiki in this case.

However, I'm confused that its been removed while the archive is not updated - I'm further confused that they were removed without anybody including me.

Looks like they were removed as part of Bug 724682

Comment 4

[Wolf [:wolf]]

I've commented there to try to figure out what's going on. Though the pages have been appearantly removed because they were redirecting... (No idea why - can't find a bug about that and I didn't approve/wasn't asked about having the mozbot project pages redirect.

So this is not an archive issue, per se.

Comment 5

[Wolf [:wolf]]

Asked in Bug 724682 that the pages be restored as it looks like (to me) somebody was incorrect about the pages being a redirect.

Comment 6

[mcbmoz]

Wolf,

Jumping in to help out, Bug 724682 was opened to help clean-up the site, I found a set of 9 pages in a recent 404 report that I wanted to have redirected (because mozilla.org gets penalized for a high number of 404s). Here is that list:

http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/docs/api.html
http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/docs/index.html
http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/docs/modules.html
http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/docs/oping.html
http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/download.html
http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/faq.html
http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/hacking.html
http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/index.html
http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/roadmap.html

These 9 pages were not actually removed in Bug 724682, but I'm glad that a red light went off for you.  I've added David Boswell who might be able to help with some detective work. I can't tell when the subdirectory may have been eliminated. Bug 656840 might be helpful here too.

That said, once tracked down we do need to have those pages moved from mozilla.org to: http://wiki.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/ or http://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/.

We'll be happy to set up redirects for you and this will definitely continue to be promoted on mozilla.org/projects.

mozilla.org is evolving (much like the organization), only it's going to be a smaller and more tightly focused site that serves the organization and the community as a canonical entry point, guiding users to various sites, but not necessarily hosting all of the content.

Please email me at [e-mail] for more details. We'll do our best to help get this resolved and redirected, and thank you for noticing!

Comment 7

[Wolf [:wolf]]

(In reply to mcbmoz from comment #6)
> 
> Jumping in to help out, Bug 724682 was opened to help clean-up the site, I
> found a set of 9 pages in a recent 404 report that I wanted to have
> redirected (because mozilla.org gets penalized for a high number of 404s).
> Here is that list:
> 
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/docs/api.html
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/docs/index.html
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/docs/modules.html
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/docs/oping.html
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/download.html
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/faq.html
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/hacking.html
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/index.html
> http://mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/roadmap.html
> 
> These 9 pages were not actually removed in Bug 724682, but I'm glad that a
> red light went off for you.

http://viewvc.svn.mozilla.org/vc?revision=101439&view=revision says otherwise, as does Bug 724682 Comment #1. and since before that revision those 9 files did exist, i'm definitely confused as to why they were already 404 - unless they were not being checked out.

> 
> That said, once tracked down we do need to have those pages moved from
> mozilla.org to: http://wiki.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/ or
> http://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/.

Honestly, neither is completely appropriate, but archive is from 2006, and doesn't even include the latest release. The mozbot project pages are a combination of documentation (which probably should go on the wiki - assuming its still relevant) but also serve as the main page for the project. (download, faq, hacking, index, roadmap.) I inherited mozbot in 2009 but aside from pushing 2.6 to release have not had the time to revamp its pages - or get to know the legacy of them. (and with the changes in the website tree I have not completely kept up.)

> We'll be happy to set up redirects for you and this will definitely continue
> to be promoted on mozilla.org/projects.

There's nowhere for these pages currently to be redirected /to/, if mozbot is being pushed off of moz.org (despite it having lived here for 10+ years). Its not abandoned like the other original webtools, not active enough to be worth having its own site (like bugzilla.) 

FWIW, mozbot isn't mentioned on projects/, it was left off when the featured project page was created as it doesn't fit neatly into any of the categories - not sure the rationale there either, but that was awhile ago.

> 
> mozilla.org is evolving (much like the organization), only it's going to be
> a smaller and more tightly focused site that serves the organization and the
> community as a canonical entry point, guiding users to various sites, but
> not necessarily hosting all of the content.
> 
> Please email me at [e-mail] for more details. We'll do our best
> to help get this resolved and redirected, and thank you for noticing!

More or less what I'm getting from your comment is that (1) /projects/mozbot/ was already missing for some reason, though I can find no info about it beyond svn telling me that sgarrity deleted those files and cited bug 724682, (2) you were hoping to redirect it, but I have no idea to where.... but (3) regardless, the pages are no longer welcome on mozilla.org and must move no matter what as part of One Mozilla (whether they've been accidentally removed or not.) Is this correct?

Comment 8

[Wolf [:wolf]]

FWIW, Google's web cache suggests the pages were live as of 2/7... at least download.html, faq, hacking, and docs/opping and module come up.

So I do wonder where the 404s were coming from?

Comment 9

[mcbmoz]

Wolf,

We'll address when we're back to work next week, but a few points:

 (1) /projects/mozbot/ was already missing for some reason, though I can find no info about it beyond svn telling me that sgarrity deleted those files and cited bug 724682, 

--we will figure this out next week, likely Friday. It looks like a mistake, and we'll course correct together. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

(2) you were hoping to redirect it, but I have no idea to where.... 

--we will redirect any traffic to a new location, and as content already lives on wiki.mozilla.org and www-archive - where do you think the best location would be? MDN, wiki, www-archive?

(3) regardless, the pages are no longer welcome on mozilla.org and must move no matter what . . . .

--I understand you are frustrated. To be clear, this has nothing to do with pages not being welcome, we are moving more than 3/4 of the site to more appropriate locations (MDN, wiki.mozilla.org, www-archive). mozilla.org will then serve as that canonical entry point, and there will be a static link to mozbot from a new /projects page.

The archive project has been in progress for a few years and we are retiring the current platform at the end of this month. We will work with you to find a new home for these 9 pages. (all together they receive roughly 160 page views per month).

Again, I want to express that we are sorry these pages seem to have been moved by accident. We will do our best to restore and then retire and redirect. One thing you can do to help out is let me know where you would like to consolidate your most current content. wiki.mozilla.org seems like a great place.

Thanks Wolf. Please feel free to email me directly [e-mail]

Comment 10

[Moses J Bermea [:mjb]]

Wolf,

So is there anyway I can access the last updated page to Mozbot or is it completely gone from Mozilla servers?

Comment 11

[David Boswell]

(In reply to Wolf [:wolf] from comment #7)
> http://viewvc.svn.mozilla.org/vc?revision=101439&view=revision says
> otherwise, as does Bug 724682 Comment #1. and since before that revision
> those 9 files did exist, i'm definitely confused as to why they were already
> 404 - unless they were not being checked out.

AFAICT, this is an issue with a locale code being added.  For instance, the actual URL of the 404 is:

http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/projects/mozbot/docs/api.html

The old www.mozilla.org site was never localized so there were never locale codes for URLs.  If locale codes are being added that would mean the page you were being served didn't match the location of the page in the repo, so you could have a 404 for a page that was still on the site.

That's just a guess though -- jlongster is the expert at post-merge www.mozilla.org URL weirdness.

> FWIW, mozbot isn't mentioned on projects/, it was left off when the featured
> project page was created as it doesn't fit neatly into any of the categories
> - not sure the rationale there either, but that was awhile ago.

I updated that page back then and can give some context.  Basically we turned it into a featured projects page instead of a comprehensive project list since there was just too much going on.  At the time, I believe mozbot wasn't active -- IIRC, it was rebooted recently -- so wasn't included.

Apologies for any confusion about mozbot not being included.  Going forward, I think it's fine to promote mozbot from www.mozilla.org as a project, but the www.mozilla.org site isn't the best places for the pages to live.  I think project pages are much better off on a wiki type system where it's easier for contributors to edit.

(In reply to Moses J Bermea [:mjb] from comment #10)
> So is there anyway I can access the last updated page to Mozbot or is it
> completely gone from Mozilla servers?

Everything is in Subversion and so nothing can be deleted.  You can check out the mozbot page history in Subversion.

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla.org/How_to_Work_with_Site#Using_Subversion

Comment 12

[Tanner M. Young [:tmyoung]]

I have temporarily started porting the pages to https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozbot This is an old page from when I was going to document Mozbot in the wiki separate from the documentation on www.mozilla.org, but that was many years ago and long before I left the Mozilla project.  This is a time-consuming process that could take quite some time as I can only spend 5-10 minutes of work on Mozilla projects each day.  (Often much less...)

I would appreciate any help that anyone can provide to expedite this process.

Comment 13

[Wolf [:wolf]]

(In reply to David Boswell from comment #11)
> 
> Apologies for any confusion about mozbot not being included.  Going forward,
> I think it's fine to promote mozbot from www.mozilla.org as a project, but
> the www.mozilla.org site isn't the best places for the pages to live.  I
> think project pages are much better off on a wiki type system where it's
> easier for contributors to edit.

This is consistent with having unceremoniously deleted the pages without anybody taking responsibility or offering to restore them pending migration to /wherever/ they're being required to move to.
> 
> (In reply to Moses J Bermea [:mjb] from comment #10)
> > So is there anyway I can access the last updated page to Mozbot or is it
> > completely gone from Mozilla servers?
> 
> Everything is in Subversion and so nothing can be deleted.  You can check
> out the mozbot page history in Subversion.
> 
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla.org/How_to_Work_with_Site#Using_Subversion

Unfortunately that doesn't help the part where Mozbot 2.6 was effectively buried. People interested in the project don't go digging in Subversion for a page.

Mozbot is a very quiet project, it neither has or needs a lot of resources and I don't have the time to invest in trying to clean up this type of mess. I don't think a download page for a project should be put on a random wiki, and I don't trust that arbitrary decisions wouldn't be made again in the future that would be like this. 

This is a moot point, now that all of /projects/ is basically gone. As is my interest in dealing with this sort of thing.

Comment 14

[David Boswell]

(In reply to Wolf [:wolf] from comment #13)
> Unfortunately that doesn't help the part where Mozbot 2.6 was effectively
> buried. People interested in the project don't go digging in Subversion for
> a page.

No one needs to go digging around in Subversion right now.  If I go to the following link:

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot

I'm taken to the archived version at:

http://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/mozbot/

From there I can click on the Download link and on that page I can download the mozbot-LATEST.tar.gz file.

In terms of where else these project pages could live, there are many Mozilla projects hosted on the Mozilla wiki, such as Bonsai at

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Bonsai

The Mozilla wiki is also far easier to edit than the new www.mozilla.org site and you can post updates instantly.

If you were to move the Mozbot content there, or anywhere else, it would be easy to redirect the old URLs.

Comment 15

[Chris Ilias [:cilias]]

Any update here? What's the next action toward closing this bug?

Comment 16

[Wolf [:wolf]]

(In reply to Chris Ilias [:cilias] from comment #15)
> Any update here? What's the next action toward closing this bug?

This effectively ended the mozbot project, as a whole. Since a project without a home is no project at all. It definitely drained my enthusiasm for working with Mozilla as well.

I never received an explanation for why the pages were deleted w/o consultation in either this bug or bug 724682 (which has been totally taken over and re-summarized since this took place). They should not have been deleted, being asked to migrate beforehand is one thing, I understand that, and nobody has owned up to the removal being a mistake - or taken action to correct it by reverting the change. 

I realize that its not a lot of work to actually move the pages, but the overhead of having to dig the last-known versions from subversion, combined with the experience of having the content deleted, has not left me feeling like its worth it. Frankly, Mozilla's priorities are fairly far removed from something like this, which is how it was treated so poorly to begin with. I believe it would just occur again at some point in the future.

This is probably wontfix. Comment #9 was never followed-up. This bug is 15 months old. No action was taken by those responsible - not even an admission of wrongdoing.

Comment 17

[Tanner M. Young [:tmyoung]]

I've finished moving all of the old stuff from subversion and getting into a roughly acceptable wiki syntax.  It took a lot spelunking, but I finally got the content from the last revision before deletion.  If Wolf approves, we just need the 404 files 301 redirected to their new wiki home and ideally someone like Wolf to look my additions to the Wiki over to see if they are correct.

I got everything from http://viewvc.svn.mozilla.org/vc/projects/mozilla.org/trunk/projects/mozbot/?pathrev=101437

There are a lot of broken links/HTML leftovers/etc., and I may have a chance to groom stuff later, but at least most links and pages work the way that they used to now.

We do need to reestablish the following redirects if they are not still there already:

http://viewvc.svn.mozilla.org/vc/projects/mozilla.org/trunk/projects/mozbot/docs/readme.txt?revision=48036&view=markup&pathrev=101437
http://viewvc.svn.mozilla.org/vc/projects/mozilla.org/trunk/projects/mozbot/docs/api.html?view=co&revision=48036&content-type=text%2Fplain&pathrev=101437