Open Bug 838681 Opened 13 years ago Updated 9 months ago

Figure out use-cases of the retention preference, and support them in the new downloads experience

Categories

(Firefox :: Downloads Panel, defect)

Product:
Firefox
Component:
Downloads Panel
Type:
defect

Tracking

()

People

(Reporter: mak, Unassigned)

References

Details

(In reply to Marco Bonardo [:mak] from bug 836271 comment #1) > I'm wondering if we should change the way > browser.download.panel.removeFinishedDownloads works, the current > implementation doesn't make much sense. > It basically makes the panel totally pointless, while I think the scope of > the user was probably to not have download history remembered across > sessions. > > use-cases: > 1. keep the list clean. There is basically no reason (the old DM had some > perf reasons though) to do this, apart psychological need to constantly have > clean environment. I actually suffer that personally, but since the panel is > limited to 3 items and commonly closed, I don't feel it badly. > 2. don't store downloads history. We don't have a good support for this, > maybe the pref should just make all downloads info per session, that means > it should stop saving downloads history. We could split Remember browsing > and downloads history (not in Aurora though!), though that would be bogus > since disabling history also disables downloads history, but not viceversa > (though we may indent download history under browsing history, so > [] Remember my browsing history > [] Remember downloads > 3. privacy. Basically private browsing covers this need and is the intended > way to keep private downloads, so this is likely not a good use-case to keep > supporting. > > I think the most requested use-case is 2, on the other side, it's hard to > figure why one would want this behavior only for a subset of history? This > adds sort of a special case to history expiration that has uncertain > benefits. > > If we can't figure the right use-case or make an Aurora backportable patch, > we should probably just stop supporting that pref for now and evaluate it > proper for the next version.
Blocks: 845658
No longer blocks: 845658
Depends on: 845658
I'd request this feature for case 2. Maybe saving download history don't make thing worse, but saving it makes things better? Not for me, and not for many other people, for sure. Why I want this behaviour only for a subset of history? Because I think browsing history and downloads history are different. Browsing history is useful when you want to visit websites you visited before. In the other hand, what's the utility of the downloads history? To be honest, I never notice the downloads history until today, I never used it and I don't think I ever will. Simply I don't see the utility of it, at least to me. And I don't see why I would keep storaging useless data. It's OK if downloads history is enabled by default, but why not give the users the option to not save it while saving browsing history (that can be useful). Firefox is the most customizable web browser, so I think this option would perfectly fit in.
(In reply to moray33 from comment #1) > It's OK if downloads history is enabled by default, but why not give the > users the option to not save it while saving browsing history (that can be > useful). Exactly this! Firefox also already has an option for this, which is ignored in version 20. in about:config it was possible to manage the download history behavior in browser.download.manager.retention 0 indicates that the download should be removed upon completion; 1 indicates that completed and canceled downloads should be removed on quit; 2 indicates that downloads should never be removed automatically. Please re-enable this option in future Firefox versions. Set it by default to two as it was in Firefox before version 20 and let the user chose.
(In reply to Frank Müller from comment #2) > Please re-enable this option in future Firefox versions. Set it by default > to two as it was in Firefox before version 20 and let the user chose. I agree, but it would be nicer with an option in the privacy settings alongside other privacy options.
Thank for the feedback, I'll try to reply to your points, please don't take that as a refusal, it's a try to bring on the discussion. (In reply to moray33 from comment #1) > Browsing history is > useful when you want to visit websites you visited before. In the other > hand, what's the utility of the downloads history? It may be the same. You may want to redownload some file you wrongly removed, to check what you downloaded last week, or just to track what you already downloaded out of an ftp (through link coloring). Downloads history has no different use-cases than browsing history, cause it's the same thing (just finishes differently, with a save as dialog). > And I > don't see why I would keep storaging useless data. I understand this, though if the cost of this storage is ignorable, what are the downsides? (In reply to Frank Müller from comment #2) > Please re-enable this option in future Firefox versions. Set it by default > to two as it was in Firefox before version 20 and let the user chose. We are aware of our choices, this bug is not for advocacy of options, is to figure out what you are truing to achieve and why, so that we can design dedicated behaviors to satisfy those needs. "I want the option back" is unfortunately not a valid reason by itself.
(In reply to Marco Bonardo [:mak] from comment #4) > It may be the same. You may want to redownload some file you wrongly > removed, to check what you downloaded last week, or just to track what you > already downloaded out of an ftp (through link coloring). Downloads history > has no different use-cases than browsing history, cause it's the same thing > (just finishes differently, with a save as dialog). I don't usually redownload stuff, and if I do, I don't use the downloads history. I can use browsing history to get back to the site where I downloaded the file and download again. Maybe in this case downloads history can be useful for some users, but it has to be for everyone? > I understand this, though if the cost of this storage is ignorable, what are > the downsides? Maybe I will not ever notice of the storage that the downloads history uses, but that doesn't change it's useless data to me. I'm going to open and clear downloads history periodically anyway, and I'm sure I won't be the only one, so, what are the downsides to make things easier for all users?
Use case: I've never understood the need for a download manager. I much preferred the old school single download window for every concurrent download. To me a download is current, temporary, and only for items that I'm in process of downloading. If I see a list of historical downloads when I try to get something new then it's something my OCD requires me to clear every time, I'd much rather like an option to have it clear upon successful download, as before in about:config (would've been better as a setting though). I appreciate the new panel because it's all within the main browser with a clean pop up, like Safari implemented before (no need for multiple windows). Yes, even for that rare occurrence when you download more than a few items at once it's nicer to group the concurrent downloads. I just have never seen the need for a history of all the things I've downloaded. I don't even really mind if you only incorporated download history into the library for show all history/bookmarks. I just don't want to see an old download when I'm pulling down something new. And I'd at least appreciate the option to not see those items if you must show me the old when I download something new.
(In reply to Marco Bonardo [:mak] from comment #4) > "I want the option back" is unfortunately not a valid reason by itself. Unfortunately in this case, it is. This option was implemented and for a long time part of firefox for many reasons. If you cant think of any reason why this option was added please refer to the discussion when the option was added the first time. Back then the decision was made to add this option and let the user chose his own privacy settings. Also there are now at least five bug reports about this, so you can see that this option is missed by the users.
(In reply to Frank Müller from comment #7) > Unfortunately in this case, it is. This option was implemented and for a > long time part of firefox for many reasons. The problem is that most of those reasons were actually valid only for the old downloads experience and only at that time. For example one of the reasons was that many downloads were making the downloads manager performances terrible, this is no more the case. We also didn't have private browsing at that time, today privacy management is totally different with it. Downloads were not stored as history for historical reasons so there was the need for a separate expiration mechanisms. We can't just take the discussion from 2003 and bring it to 2012, as if nothing changed in the meanwhile. This bug is indeed trying to create a new analysis valid in 2012.
My use case is much the same as Joe. I treat downloads in the browser much like copying a file from one location on my computer to another (except this is a location on the internet to a location on my computer). I want to see a progress bar while it is copying and then disappear when done, I don't need a manager for it. Much like most (all?) people don't have a need for a history of all the files they have copied from place to place on their computer, I don't have a need for the history of files copied from the internet. If I need to locate that file then I will use my computer to find it as that is now where it resides, not my browser. My use case is much the same as Joe. I treat downloads in the browser much like copying a file from one location on my computer to another (except this is a location on the internet to a location on my computer). I want to see a progress bar while it is copying and then disappear when done, I don't need a manager for it. Much like most (all?) people don't have a need for a history of all the files they have copied from place to place on their computer, I don't have a need for the history of files copied from the internet. If I need to locate that file then I will use my computer to find it as that is now where it resides, not my browser. In my ideal perfect browser I'd love to be able to replace the download panel button with a button that just opens my specified download location and have no manager entirely.
Maybe we should be thinking of this more as a predictability issue than as a productivity or performance issue. In the Settings for Clearing History window it says "When I quit Firefox, it should automatically clear all [of the boxes checked below]" -- but checking the Download History box doesn't actually clear the download history; it just hides it. That's not predictable browser behavior. Obviously one solution would be to just remove the Download History checkbox from the window, but I'd much prefer to be able to actually clear my download history (I guess that's use case 2). Like moray33 and Paul Bellchambers, I rarely redownload files, but if I ever needed to, I could use my browsing history (or Google) to help me find the files again. Turning on private browsing just to keep my download history clear would obviously be overkill, so I'm not sure what private browsing has to do with this discussion. I just don't want to keep data I'm never going to use. Shouldn't users be the judges of whether the cost of storing history is "ignorable" or not? I have to say I don't understand why users are being asked to justify a feature that we've had (or thought we had) for at least the past five years, when we complain that that feature has been taken away. But since we are, it seems only fair for programmers to justify their side as well: Why is it better to store downloads as history? How does that benefit users? What would be the costs of coming up with a new implementation of history that stores downloads separately again, so that those of us who want to delete it separately can do so?
While I'm not using this feature myself, I'd like to add that however it is true that functionality-wise this could be replaced by using a private browsing window, it adds an extra step to the process to first open the current page in a private window, then download the file you want to download. This can be extra annoying when the download is behind a log-in.
Agreed. There still needs to be a way to clear Download history separate from Browsing history. There are many use-cases where it is useful to return to a web site yet not necessarily useful to have download history retained. I agree with Patrick Hubenthal, if it's better to store downloads along with browser history and not differentiate them at all then why is the downloads interface at all separate from the address bar and history interface (downloads panel is un-necessary if you agree with such arguments). Paul Bellchambers, also makes a great case with his copy example.
It's not actually clear how the new download panel and download history are intended to be used - indeed, it's also not entirely clear how the old window was intended to be used either, so it's a difficult transition. I think - based on the 'clear list' option vs the 'clear downloads' option - that the download panel is intended as a sort of replacement for the download window and the list of downloads that used to be stored there. However, for someone like me who used the old list as a way of keeping track of recent downloads (removing them from the list after I'd processed them), the download panel's list is no longer as useful because it only remembers up to 3 items, there's no way to remove individual items without also deleting them from history, and the list is lost upon restarting Firefox. The library is not a suitable replacement for this because removing an item from it also removes it from history. While I personally don't even see the use of the downloads history being separated from browsing history, I don't think that in itself is really the issue - I think some users just want the functionality of the old download manager's list and are treating the download history as the most similar thing, leading to a lot of confusion over how it works. I'm sure there's some way that the old functionality could be implemented into the download panel, or at least some kind of compromise (ie. make panel windowable, option to list more files, option to remember files on restart, option to remove individual files from list while leaving history alone)
I don't like long discussions in bugs, though I'd feel bad not trying to answer most common doubts, I'll try to sum up. (In reply to Patrick Hubenthal from comment #10) > In the Settings for Clearing History > ... checking the Download History box doesn't > actually clear the download history; it just hides it. This has been fixed in Firefox 21, it now states "Browsing and download history". > Shouldn't users be the judges of whether the cost of storing history is > "ignorable" or not? No, you should not have to care about that, otherwise we failed giving you something that you can just use and have fun with, without spending hours tweaking details. Let the browser manage technical details, we have more objective data to tell what is expensive. > I have to say I don't understand why users are being asked to justify a > feature that we've had No justification is required, I'm trying to understand the needs, to be able to evaluate if we could make something better than the old system. > Why is it > better to store downloads as history? Efficiency, cause we can drop a storage that causes UI hangs. Code re-use, that means easier to maintain code and less points of failure. > How does that benefit users? Better performances and less bugs, as said. Better privacy, since there's no risk to clear downloads in one UI just to find history may still allow anyone to find them again. Simpler "what you visited is history" concept, you can just search history, no need for searching many different places. Less managing burden, everything is in one single manager. Less windows to check "status" of your tasks. Always visible downloads status. The removal of the statusbar made clear people wanted a way to track downloads in the browser window. Just look at Download Statusbar add-on, it has 2 millions users. Btw, I'm not the best person to express this, so I'll leave this to the more interesting and complete insight of a UX expert: http://limi.net/articles/improving-download-behaviors-web-browsers/ There is more that can still be improved, in future. > What > would be the costs of coming up with a new implementation of history that > stores downloads separately again Both history and downloads would need a redesign, since that would go in the opposite direction of the current target. We may soon to have totally non-blocking history and downloads. > , so that those of us who want to delete it > separately can do so? Let me be clear, this is feasible regardless of the implementation. The problem is that it has a cost, so we must figure if the benefit over weights the cost. (In reply to Thorin from comment #12) > why is the downloads > interface at all separate from the address bar and history interface > (downloads panel is un-necessary if you agree with such arguments). The history menu indeed shows downloads from many years. Each separate UI covers specific use-cases. (In reply to Alan York from comment #13) > I think - based on the 'clear list' option vs the 'clear downloads' option - > that the download panel is intended as a sort of replacement for the > download window Not exactly, it's intended as a notification panel, the Clear List exists indeed to cover the todo list use-case, that you well expressed. The Library is more intended as a replacement for the old Manager. > However, for someone like me who used the old list as a way of keeping track > of recent downloads (removing them from the list after I'd processed them), > the download panel's list is no longer as useful because it only remembers > up to 3 items This is a good point. The first fact is that our telemetry shows 97% of users have less than 2 concurrent downloads, and adapting number of downloads to the screen size adds quite a bit of code complication. And no, scrollbars are not a good solution. Bug 780837 is still open to try figuring out a good way to have more items in the panel, so this is not the right place to discuss that issue, this bug is only about being able to clear downloads history on shutdown without clearing browsing history.
"The history menu indeed shows downloads from many years. Each separate UI covers specific use-cases." A large part of the issue is that "yes" maybe the library has been ignoring the distinction between browser history and downloads for years and also ignoring the download manager retention settings, the vast majority of users (or so it seems from my reading today) were unaware of this information remaining available through the "Library". (And that they are disappointed to find that it is so, after years.)
I'm going off topic here, but I think Firefox would benefit from clearly offering a more public way for users to discuss features (as opposed to just giving feedback with no response) - this could reduce clutter in bugzilla and could help users feel like they're being listened to, rather than the patronizing and (human) faceless 'Firefox made me sad' feedback page. Ideally it could also be used to better highlight use cases between different features - bugzilla seems ideal for focusing on individual features/elements of features, but many issues involve a combination of features (such as download panel with download history, or many things in combination with private browsing) and would be more suited to those (like myself) who are generally more focused on how things work as a whole rather than specifics of their implementation.
(In reply to Marco Bonardo [:mak] from comment #14) > I don't like long discussions in bugs, though I'd feel bad not trying to > answer most common doubts, I'll try to sum up. Thanks for taking the time, Marco -- I appreciate it, especially since I think I went somewhat outside the scope of the thread. Speaking of which: (In reply to Alan York from comment #16) > I'm going off topic here, but I think Firefox would benefit from clearly > offering a more public way for users to discuss features (as opposed to just > giving feedback with no response I agree!
A use case? I don't know about that, but showing useless information mixed in with useful information is always bad. It might be, that lots of users use the list (I never found a use case for the download list), but now it is mandatory to show me the names of files I've already deleted, when all I want to know is the state of my download (meaning the download speed). As it is, it is simply a vestigial panel, it reminds you of the old download manager window, but has lost its uses.
I'd like to add a couple of comments, and suggest what might be a solution: - I have the impression that many of the complaints stem from the fact that there is confusion between 'download history', and what appeared in the 'download manager'. I agree that it is confusing. - The actual system (Nightly 24.0) is the worst option (IMO). I frequently download tens of files simultaneously - only 3 show? If your telemetry show 97% of all use Windows, will you also drop support for Linux? - I disliked the previous notifications (rectangle boxes), but at least the colors were neutral. The flashing arrow is far more distracting (and way too large). - A solution (?): Restore the larger download list (which might be the download history), and add a simple checkbutton to the header of the window 'Show only active downloads' (and make it persistent). That can't be too difficult to implement?
(In reply to John from comment #19) > I frequently > download tens of files simultaneously - only 3 show? We plan to increase that number to 5, it's not a big change, but covers most needs. If you download so many files at the same time, your use-case is better covered by a proper download manager add-on or third party software, many have good integration with Firefox. The integrated downloads support is intended for more common browsing download needs, but Firefox will never be an advanced download manager. > - I disliked the previous notifications (rectangle boxes), but at > least the colors were neutral. The flashing arrow is far more > distracting (and way too large). You can disable the animated arrows by going to about:config and creating a new boolean pref named browser.download.animateNotifications set to false
> You can disable the animated arrows by going to about:config and > creating a new boolean pref named > browser.download.animateNotifications set to false That's great - thanks!
I've seen this change discussed elsewhere and what users seem to desire is not wanted by the developers because it's seen as a security concern. I'm not concerned about security, I'm concerned about usability. So here is my use case and why I'd like something similar to the old functionality to be restored. I use Easynews to download files from Usenet through their web interface. Mostly I download pictures-- if I download audio or video files, I use a download manager extension (DownThemAll) for those things. Using that extension for downloading images is a waste of time in this use case, because all I'm doing is clicking on links to images, and choosing which ones I'd like to save to my hard drive. When I choose an image I'm viewing to save, I just hit CTRL+S, or right-click the image and choose "save image"-- I use the DownSort extension to automatically save to my chosen location with my chosen filename/folder combination etc. This makes saving an image a one-step process which requires no other intervention from me as a user. When I save an image in this way, the browser just copies the file from the browser cache to my chosen location on my hard drive. There is zero distinction from the browser's point of view-- the browser downloaded the image the same way whether I chose to save the image or not-- therefore, saving that file to the download list is superfluous and redundant information, as the image is already present in the browsing history. I do not care that it's in the browsing history, and if I did, I would be using private browsing instead (except that in private browsing, some extensions don't seem to work, which makes my use case much more complicated than necessary). The second use case is when I download files to portable storage on computer A and transfer them to computer B. Computer B has the files, and has no idea where they came from, while computer A never had the files and doesn't need to care about what it downloaded. In both of these use cases, I'm stuck with having to do a 5 step workaround kludge for something that used to just work automatically. From an end user's standpoint, that's extremely irritating-- doubly so since the functionality that I want is already right there in the browser, except 4 clicks away instead of 0 clicks away. I hope this provides some insight into why several users find this new change so mind-numbingly irritating. The changes cited by the Firefox developers are sound and do make sense, except for the total lack of an option the user can set to automatically click that "Clear downloads" button on browser exit. I'm fine with it popping up a warning to users when they check it to let them know that their "privacy" may be compromised if they don't understand the implications, but for the many of us who aren't concerned about that privacy-- and are instead concerned about an every-single-time-we-close-the-browser-inconvenience, it would be nice to be able to just automate that button click and save the extra 4 steps in our browser closing procedure.
In both cases looks like you only care about not having superfluous information, but I'm not sure which downsides you see attached to that information, which issues is it causing? There's no interesting difference in what we store in history compared to previous versions of firefox, so it's not that it's taking more space or making the browser slower. Is it just a UI clutter problem? That said, it's not very hard to make an add-on that clears downloads on shutdown, and then based on the number of users of such add-on we could make a more informed choice whether it's worth to consider it for the core product.
It's not about speed-- my computer is plenty fast and has plenty of resources. It's about clutter and usefulness for me, in addition to just plain bothering me psychologically by having it sitting there in the window all the time when I don't want or need it there if I'm honest about it. It bothers my OCD and makes my skin crawl. I don't mind that the browser is storing that information, nor that it's storing it in two different places from a UI point of view. I mind that it's showing it to me in one of the places where I just don't need or want it to be after my browser session has ended and I've closed the browser. And I mind that I have to do 500% more work to keep it from doing that when it used to do it automatically if I checked the check box. I'm weird, I'll grant that. But I'm hardly the only OCD person who's bothered by the way it's currently handled. The way I see it is it's sort of similar to if suddenly Firefox were written to always start the browser with the previous set of tabs and their history open, and the option to have it start up with a new window with no tabs or history open were removed and people who want to start the browser with a clean slate would have to remember to manually close every tab before closing the browser. That wouldn't make sense, would it? So while I can see the reason from a security standpoint because of the confusion about how it's actually stored in the browsing history, I don't see the reason for the lack of the option from a user experience standpoint. It just doesn't make any sense to me when what I'd generally like with a new browsing session is the option of a clean slate in my browser window and downloads window, that I can only have that experience on the browser window/tabs side but not the downloads window side without doing it manually. In the case of tabs and tab history, that session information can be restored by restoring the previous session upon starting the browser, and I can also choose to locate those sites in my browsing history. I see the browsing history presenting downloads in the browsing history and in the downloads window as the functional equivalent of having the browser start with no tabs open (or the startup tabs chosen by the user) and having the restore previous session option for restoring the tabs and tab history vs. always starting the browser with the previous tabs/history open. If I can start with no tabs open automatically, but have the ability to restore the previous tab set, then why can't I have that same experience with the downloads window and the downloads still existing in browsing history? Isn't that pretty much the same kind of thing? From my point of view, they're at least from the same family, if not fraternal twins. And believe me, if there WERE an extension that would automatically clear the downloads window upon browser shutdown, I would download it this instant. I'd write it myself too if I knew how, but I don't, and apparently no one else who knows how has thought to write it either. It does seem like it should be trivially easy since the necessary functionality is already built into the browser in the downloads window, it seems like it should just be a matter of making that function call on shutdown. Like literally a minute's worth of work for someone who knows what they're doing I'd think, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, I appreciate you guys hearing us users out on this one. I know that being a bit OCD means I'm the one that's out of whack, but for me it's still just as real as the air I breath. Having my downloads window cluttered every time I open my browser and open that window really does cause me a visceral, physical reaction. It's not enough to drive me away from Firefox all on its own, but it is a nail that could wind up in its coffin at some point. I'd hate that, because no other browser comes close.
I've found a workaround to clear downloads history automatically when closing Firefox. The extension is not compatible with Firefox 22 (it has to be upgraded due to the new downloads panel), but using this other extension you can make it work: https://addons.mozilla.org/es/firefox/addon/checkcompatibility/ So, the extension to clear downloads history is this one: https://addons.mozilla.org/es/firefox/addon/download-cleaner/?src=userprofile It has two options: Remove downloads instantly or when closing Firefox. The first one doesn't work at the moment, so you have yo choose the second one. It's not an ideal solution but it's something. I hope the develover had time to upgrade it.
Here's a use case for separating the deletion of download history separately from page history: Security and personal data protection. There is a difference between visiting a website (perhaps accidentally) and intentionally downloading a file. This worked properly until FF 19. In FF 19 one still could have download history cleared when FF closed.
While we are trying to find a use-case which is acceptable for Mozilla maybe before this somebody will provide simple a patch that extends browser.download.manager.retention to do the job for the download panel so that no official ressources are needed for this.
Is there any EASY way that i can make all completed downloads library is AUTOMATICALLY clear after it completed as it was happening until firefox 25? I try ti enable about:config parameters into 1 and nothing happened. browser.download.panel.removeFinishedDownloads browser.download.manager.retention Is there any plugin that it do that successfully at firefox 26?
I agree with what others are saying - please bring back an option to automatically clear downloads from the "Library" window (Ctrl-J in Windows). As Keith D said above - the functionality is already there, since there is a "Clear Downloads" button on the Library window. Just give us a simple configuration option to fire that off when a download finishes, or even just when we close the browser. I like the Library window as a way to view how far along my downloads are, but it is annoying that there's no automatic way to have Firefox clear them from that list once they finish. Maybe I'm also OCD like Keith, but keeping the downloads there is just cluttery. Sure, it's just one quick click on my part, but aren't computers supposed to be making our lives easier, not more difficult? As to "use cases" - your users are asking for a return of functionality. Isn't that use case enough?
As I have noticed the last few years, we seem to be at a point in history where things are working so well that we have to needlessly add/experiment with/ruin things. The "Download experience" is something I'd rather avoid than experience. This is different from the "Browsing experience" which (mostly) I enjoy. So they are fundamentally different. Which means that my contact with the "download experience" has to be as painless, fast and simple as possible. My apologies to all people who dedicate themselves to the download code... Downloading - for me - is a necessary evil. The only use I have for the download history, is to check how far along I am, if it's still progressing and if I have to do something in the meantime. Though I frequently download multiple files concurrently, maybe statistically only one (or a couple) take more time), which is probably what your telemetry is showing. This could be a 'use case' to justify a miniature progress bar indicating the progress of the sum of downloads. Then I probably wouldn't even go to the Downloads history.
(In reply to John from comment #31) > Though I frequently download multiple files concurrently, maybe > statistically only one (or a couple) take more time), which is probably what > your telemetry is showing. This could be a 'use case' to justify a miniature > progress bar indicating the progress of the sum of downloads. Then I > probably wouldn't even go to the Downloads history. How is this related to this bug report? we do have a miniature progress bar, and such stuff. The only thing this bug is about, is an option to remove downloads from history as soon as they are done, or at the end of the browsing session. The fact you don't care about downloads history is not interesting to this bug, since you may well just ignore it. It won't have any additional impact on your privacy or performance over common browsing history.
> How is this related to this bug report? This is directly related, because if I have to wade through a long list of downloads to check if the download I'm interested in has correctly finished, then that is counter-productive. This has deteriorated with the inclusion of the downloads of each picture in the list. Which is why I vote for reinstatement automatic removal if completed downloads. > We do have a miniature progress bar How do I enable this? Probably in the about:config options. Is there any documentation for these options?
(In reply to John from comment #33) > > We do have a miniature progress bar > > How do I enable this? Probably in the about:config options. Is there any > documentation for these options? Do you see the Download widget in your toolbar? did you remove it? it's a fat arrow pointing down, just to help you find it in the customization palette.
Please allow us to auto-delete the download history ! I don't know anyone who wants to keep a history of everything that has been downloaded by simply clicking the Download Manager. It's incredible that some guys of the develoment team have decided that it would be no more possible to autoclear the download history !!!!
How are decisions taken on Firefox? I believe, more people by far here have disagreed with the "new" download handling than supporting it. So, who's taking this bug to redo the download handling feature back to version 15--?
Yes, David said, the functionality of clearing the Download History is already there, since there is a "Clear Downloads" button on the Library window. Just give us a simple configuration option to fire that off when a download finishes !
We do not want anyone to see everything that was downloaded with a simple click. That's what "Autoclear download history" was made for. It was a TERRIBLE choice to remove it. PLEASE BRING IT BACK ! Everyone is asking for this functionnality but you are ignoring us !!
we are not ignoring anyone, but we can't satisfy everyone. The one-click disclosure was possible before too, just by opening History instead of Downloads, all of the downloads information was available regardless.
> The one-click disclosure was possible before too, just by opening History instead of Downloads, all of the downloads information was available regardless. That isn't actually completely correct. The information that was available before is that each of the components was visible in a list of literally every single other webpage component that the browser had ever loaded as far back as the user's browsing history was set to keep those records. What was NOT easily available was which of those components were DELIBERATELY SAVED PERMANENTLY rather than simply loaded by the browser alongside hundreds of other components loaded along with a given webpage. Having a temporary copy of a file in a browser cache is a whole lot different than having an explicitly downloaded, permanent copy in a folder outside of the browser's cache. That is the issue with the downloads list not being automatically clearable on exit anymore. I don't think most of the users complaining about this change particularly care(d) about the browser keeping a browsing history or else they'd have been clearing that too-- they cared about the browser no longer allowing them to automatically clear a list of SAVED files on exit without also clearing all the other browsing history along with it. Personally, I liked having files I'd downloaded kept in the browsing history because then links to that file would show that they'd already been visited, so I wouldn't bother downloading them again-- but I *DIDN'T* like having to manually go into the download manager that I've never even had a use for to click "clear downloads" by hand every time I closed my browser in order to keep THAT window neat and tidy, which was my use-case for even possibly WANTING to use it in the first place. The reason why I finally left Firefox to switch first to Pale Moon, and finally to Chrome permanently was that I could no longer do what I wanted to do with Firefox, and its flexibility kept dwindling, while its user experience kept getting worse and worse. For example, I got really tired of the extensions I relied on to make the browser my favorite being broken every other week with yet ANOTHER new update, and then having those extensions barely get fixed by only the most active extension developers by the time they were broken again by yet another endless stream of major updates-- and then finally having about 1/4 to 1/3 of my most needed extensions finally being abandoned outright because volunteers working on them for free who have real day jobs and families were no longer willing to sacrifice 100% of their free time just to keep an extension or several extensions compatible with the Firefox breaks-du-jour every few weeks when they weren't even making any actual changes in extension functionality (this also caused stagnation in extension development as many developers had to spend too much of their time maintaining compatibility rather than creating newer and better functionality). I think Firefox went in a really bad direction personally-- my patience stretched beyond the limit finally, and that's why I left and haven't looked back. It still makes me sad though, and I still check back on this once in a while out of morbid curiosity, but honestly at this point, it'd take more than a small miracle to bring me back to Firefox. And for every person who bothered to figure out how to post to bugzilla, bothered creating an account to do so, and who bothered to even FIND the bug report related to this break in functionality, you can safely bet there are a thousand more behind each of us. I wonder how many others were lost to Chrome for similar reasons? What really gets me is that this one was a no-brainer to even fix. The code to do it is already built right into the browser because the download manager window HAS a "clear downloads" button right at the top of it, so it's literally just a matter of calling the code that that button calls in the browser cleanup function and adding a checkbox to turn it on or off. I just couldn't fathom why there was such resistance to ever doing so. With all due respect, the attitude I got from various interactions with developers at Firefox/Mozilla is what did me in in the end, and pushed those other issues past the brink for me because it was such a simple, simple fix logically speaking. I don't understand the Firefox code or extension stuff, or I'd have written an extension to fix this ages ago, but I have neither the time nor inclination when I can just switch to a faster browser with all the same or better functionality and walk away. Is it really not that simple to add a preference check box like the one it used to have and tie that to an if-then or case:switch or something in the browser cleanup/exit function to call the "clear downloads" function from the download manager window? I can't begin to fathom why it would be. Sorry for conversing in bugzilla a gain. I'm just still lamenting leaving behind a formerly good browser over such a trivial little thing to implement when it had already been there and been used by users for many years already. I'd even settle for a warning in the preference that says "attention: record of your downloaded files is still stored separately in your browsing history even when using this option. For privacy, use private browsing mode." or something to appease to privacy reason some have cited on removing this feature and combining it with another, different but only tangentially related feature.
Keith, thanks for your fantastic message ! And when you say "for every person who bothered to figure out how to post to bugzilla, bothered creating an account to do so, and who bothered to even FIND the bug report related to this break in functionality, you can safely bet there are a thousand more behind each of us.", it's so true. I myself created a Bugzilla account last year solely for this problem, but I was hesitating because I was sure (and I was right) that my opinion wouldn't weigh in. You should never break this kind of functionality but give the user the possibility to activate it or not.
(coming from Bug 858096, not sure if I should post there or here) For a user 'no history' is not the same as: no history + tracking protection + whatever else 'Private browsing' brings or will bring along. Right now 'no history' is *almost* like 'always browse privately' (but without the added benefit of the purple mask) [1]. I think that 'no history' deserves its own independent behaviour option, otherwise the whole experience is rather confusing: you don't want to save the history and you end up browsing privately without knowing it (see for example Bug 1443054, Bug 858096, Bug 701246 and all their duplicates). Since Firefox cannot *just* forget history (at least it has to protect against trackers at the same time), we might as well only have a "always browse privately" option. [1] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/private-browsing-use-firefox-without-history?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=private-browsing-browse-web-without-saving-info#w_can-i-set-firefox-to-always-use-private-browsing
Thanks for looking at the existing bugs on the subject. From what I understand, bug 701246 already covers the issue of the possible confusion about the scope of these preferences. I don't expect activity in this area soon, though, because as far as I know the Desktop teams are currently focused on other projects. When we look into this area again, we'll consider bug 701246.
Severity: normal → S3

The severity field for this bug is relatively low, S3. However, the bug has 3 duplicates and 15 votes.
:mak, could you consider increasing the bug severity?

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Flags: needinfo?(mak)

The last needinfo from me was triggered in error by recent activity on the bug. I'm clearing the needinfo since this is a very old bug and I don't know if it's still relevant.

Flags: needinfo?(mak)

I went through all the messages and tried to understand whether I was wrong and not able to understand the intention.

As stated by Marco the main reason to have both together is because it’s a subset of history.
Let’s assume they have similar usefulness, properties and functionality:

Can I see Browsing and Download history together on one screen where two are visually represented in relation to one another?
No. They are independent data from each other.

Can I open links from each entry?
Not always. While entries in Browsing history and in Downloads history contain links, they aren't equally reliable.
Download links are often conditional and getting more complicated making them significantly less reliable hence poor choice for users to go to download again. Website interface should be the primary choice.

What can I do with entries?
Browsing history entry: Open, Add to bookmarks, Copy link, Forget the website
Download history entry: Open in Finder (under the condition file was not moved/deleted from Download folder), Download again (under the condition link is alive), Copy link, Open page (not always shown).

Are they both synced?
No. Firefox Sync doesn’t sync Download history.

Logically, both can’t be treated equally even though they are subset of history.
I don’t have data but I assume for most if not all users Download history is redundant data and for power users, it’s something they want to be able to disable to make their browser feel less bloated, private, ocd-related etc.

It would be great to have Browsing and Downloading history represented visually as one graph or tree with a beautiful UI. But it’s not there.

In my opinion, purely from a UX standpoint it feels unnatural to have them both under Browsing and download history checkbox.

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